Theological Question

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Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 1:18 PM

I would recommend reading two books by Dr. Jack Deere, a former cessationist and professor from Dallas Seminary: Surprised by the voice of God and Surprised by the Spirit of God. 

 

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?Ntt=Jack+Deere+&N=0&Ntk=keywords&action=Search&Ne=0&event=ESRCN&nav_search=1&cms=1&search=

He addresses these issues as one who used to hold to Cessationsim very strongly. 

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 2:08 PM

Jack Caviness:
Having been trained as a cessationist

The early part of my journey was with cessationists although this was a position I think that most of them had reached through tradition and limited experience rather than being a well formed doctrinal position. No one talked about the gifts ceasing in fact they did not really talk about the gifts at all just the fruit. Personally the one aspect of cessationist teaching I would probably agree with is that an emphasis of the gifts over character (the fruit) can create an explosive and potentially explosive mix!

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 2:12 PM

Jack Caviness:
but I may be lynched by fellow IFBs

Hi Jack

Been good knowing you, could be time to change denominations!!!

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 10836
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 3:21 PM

Graham Owen:
Been good knowing you, could be time to change denominations!!!

Well, actually, after serving as pastor of IFBs for over 20 years, I am now a member of an SBC congregation, but please don't tell any of my former peers. Big Smile

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 4:03 PM

Rene Atchley:
Its always kind of fun to read about this heretic or that heretic on a web site that seems geared toward a solid Evangelical audience which on a bad day is radically moderate and on a good day fundamentalist in their product selection.  I wonder how many buyers would faint if Tillich or Suchocki or Bultmann were to appear as stand alone items for sale...Sad

While I have a certain sympathy for what you say here, I believe Logos does an excellent job of supplying non-evangelical scholarship, including critical scholarship. There are works by Wedderburn, Lüdemann, Conzelmann, Pervo, Schurer, Dibelius, Vermes, Pannenberg, Lemche, Davies, Thompson, Silberman, Finkelstein, Whitelam, just for a start. Logos provides dozens of works from Sheffield Press (known for its critical rather than confessional scholarship, and certainly way off the evangelical road), and a large number of the JSOTS/JSNTS resources, which are anything but Fundamentalist.

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Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 5:04 PM

I thought this was done.  However, Jonathan I see the endless debate on just how good (nay great) Logos is sort of like arguing the nature of the color blue.  Pick out 10, 15, 20, perhaps even 30 complete works out of thousands of those provided by the ebook publisher and this proves that the trajectory of material produced and the target audience is something other than Evangelical in content.  I ask myself is looking up all these authors worth pursuing at this point.  Not really my point is made and the discussion on heresy of a Pentecostal systematic theologian seems at an end I suppose.

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 5:57 PM

Rene Atchley:
Pick out 10, 15, 20, perhaps even 30 complete works out of thousands of those provided by the ebook publisher and this proves that the trajectory of material produced and the target audience is something other than Evangelical in content. 

Oh by no means would I say that. The vast amount of material published by Logos very definitely follows very mainstream evangelical lines. But what else would we expect? That material constitutes the vast majority of commentary published, and the largest market. My only point was that Logos does not neglect critical scholarship outside the mainstream evangelical trajectory.

As a percentage of critical scholarship available, Logos actually offers a significant amount. The number of Sheffield Press/JSOTS/JSNTS material Logos publishes is more than sufficient evidence for that alone.

Rene Atchley:
I ask myself is looking up all these authors worth pursuing at this point.

Undoubtedly, unless you want to confine yourself to the mainstream evangelical trajectory. I choose not to.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:02 PM

Rene Atchley:


I thought this was done.  However, Jonathan I see the endless debate on just how good (nay great) Logos is sort of like arguing the nature of the color blue.  Pick out 10, 15, 20, perhaps even 30 complete works out of thousands of those provided by the ebook publisher and this proves that the trajectory of material produced and the target audience is something other than Evangelical in content.  I ask myself is looking up all these authors worth pursuing at this point.  Not really my point is made and the discussion on heresy of a Pentecostal systematic theologian seems at an end I suppose.




Here are 44 to get your list started: Sheffield/T & T Clark Bible Guides Collection (44 vols.)   I believe this resource is included in it's entirety in the Christmas 2010 Master Collection.

I think I can define Logos' target audience better without using terms like "evangelical", "fundamentalist", "orthodox", "postmodern", "liberal", "scholarly" or whatever. I think Logos is targeting their Bible software to:  (drum-roll, please) people who will buy it!

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:19 PM

I should also make mention of the Continental Commentary Series, Semeia, and Hermeneia (all three of which I use every time I look up a passage). The amount of critical scholarship published by Logos, as a percentage of mainstream critical scholarship, is actually far from marginal.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:55 PM

<{[deleted]}>

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 9:53 PM

Jonathan Burke:

I should also make mention of the Continental Commentary Series, Semeia, and Hermeneia (all three of which I use every time I look up a passage). The amount of critical scholarship published by Logos, as a percentage of mainstream critical scholarship, is actually far from marginal.

 

 http://www.logos.com/product/8047/hermeneia-and-continental-commentaries

~

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 10:30 PM

Yes, it's an excellent bargain Abi.

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Posts 114
James Matichuk | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 11:44 PM

I passed on this one because of the dearth of information I could find on Moller online (the  only thing I could find was an article who described him as a leader of a South African Pentecostal denomination which supported Apartheid). I am not sorry I passed on it, but I bemoan the lack of decent Pentecostal/Charismatic resources in Logos.

Sure there are Pentecostal Biblical scholars (i.e. Gordon Fee, Robert Menzies) who find their way into logos. In terms of systematics, why not Renewal Theology (pub. by Zondervan) by J. Rodman Williams from a Reformed/Charismatic perspective. I have used it and it is good. Other Pentecostal theologians I would like to see are Amos Yong (Available in pre-pub as part of the Sacra Doctrina collection), Frank Maccia, James A. K. Smith (specifically his Thinking in Tongues on the Pentecostal contributions to philosophy). While I think there are other major holes in Logos resources (i.e. post-Vatican II Catholicism, 20th century Lutheranism, etc.), I am bothered that there are not more Charismatic resources.

 

Posts 2745
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 18 2010 12:08 AM

Systematic Theology edited by Stanley Horton would be a great addition to Logos.

Bohuslav

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 18 2010 10:22 AM

James Matichuk:
(the  only thing I could find was an article who described him as a leader of a South African Pentecostal denomination which supported Apartheid)

                                                                          Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 18 2010 12:11 PM

James Matichuk:
I bemoan the lack of decent Pentecostal/Charismatic resources in Logos.

I was pleased to see the link with AOG and the publication of some of their training materials, I hope to see more come from this agreement. I would also love to see some of the books from my own denominations publishing house available and I do hope that one day they will also enter an agreement with Logos. One of the challenges we Pentecostals face is that, in my opinion, good scholarship is a recent phenomenon, Like many new movements in our early years we rejected the traditions and approach of the established Church and as a result many failed to understand the benefits of education. 

The great thing is that there are plenty of good systematic theologies from other traditions that cover much of what we believe, in the desire to be distinctive we often seem to forget how much we have in common.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 114
James Matichuk | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 18 2010 6:30 PM

Graham Owen:

 

 One of the challenges we Pentecostals face is that, in my opinion, good scholarship is a recent phenomenon, Like many new movements in our early years we rejected the traditions and approach of the established Church and as a result many failed to understand the benefits of education. 

The great thing is that there are plenty of good systematic theologies from other traditions that cover much of what we believe, in the desire to be distinctive we often seem to forget how much we have in common.

I agree,  but there is a coming of age of Pentecostal/Charismatic theology as of late, and I'd like to see Logos get in on it. 

Personally, I do not currently attend a Pentecostal or Charismatic church, but have in the past and my beliefs align with many of the distinctives of Pentecostalism. My frustration with Logos is that the world wide Pentecostal movement is the fastest growing segment of the church in the world and Logos has done little to pull together those resources.

 

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 18 2010 6:45 PM

 

I always thought that dogmatics was when the pastor HOUNDS the members.

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 18 2010 7:20 PM

James Matichuk:

I agree,  but there is a coming of age of Pentecostal/Charismatic theology as of late, and I'd like to see Logos get in on it. 

Personally, I do not currently attend a Pentecostal or Charismatic church, but have in the past and my beliefs align with many of the distinctives of Pentecostalism. My frustration with Logos is that the world wide Pentecostal movement is the fastest growing segment of the church in the world and Logos has done little to pull together those resources.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but let me say this: in place of a complaint, make a suggestion. (I hope I'm not being too blunt, I'm just trying to be concise.)

Many Pentecostal/Charismatic/Third Wave resources have been suggested in the past, as have authors and even entire publishing houses. Why not suggest some, or join the suggestions of others. I've made such suggestions and have joined the suggestions of others as well.

But let's also take into consideration that Logos tends to focus on reference works, and there aren't many reference works from a Pentecostal/Charismatic/Third Wave perspective. Most of the ones I know about already are in Logos (Hayford, Fee, etc.). But maybe you could suggest a few more.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 77
K.J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 19 2010 5:11 AM

Dan Sheppard:

 

I always thought that dogmatics was when the pastor HOUNDS the members.

 

Yes

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