Rich Resources on "Moslem"

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Posts 35
Debessay | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Dec 30 2010 10:38 AM

I need rich Logos resources on Moslem Religion.

IN HIS LEGACY

Posts 19276
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 30 2010 11:23 AM

There are some in the Zondervan World Religions and Cults Collection (8 vols.) which is in pre-pub (shipping in February).

There's also Islam and the Bible: Why Two Faiths Collide (which I'm unfamiliar with).

And for a fair understanding of Islam, you should probably have a copy of the Qur'an. There's an English translation in Logos: http://www.logos.com/product/2570/the-quran

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 30 2010 1:28 PM

I've got another book by Goldmann (of Islam and the Bible: Why Two Faiths Collide) and he seems knowledgeable and respectful of Islam.  Might get that book, if it's not the same as the one I've got and only dipped into.

There's also Qur'an in Arabic, should you be interested.

There are various books on Islam as part of expensive collections.

Posts 59
Y2K2 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 8 2011 11:40 AM

 English translations of the Koran are often slanted in order to give a favorable view of Islam, leaving out passages that would be offensive to the Western mind set.

Here is the weblink to a source that's been recommended to me. I've found it quite useful because of the extensive indexing by subject matter. It's reputed to be an accurate and trustworthy source but that's something everyone has to determine for themselves.

http://www.answering-islam.org.

 

I hope it helps.

Posts 59
Y2K2 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 8 2011 11:41 AM

Sorry, I forgot to include the weblink Smile

http://www.answering-islam.org.'

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 8 2011 12:44 PM

Debessay:

I need rich Logos resources on Moslem Religion.

Partly it depends on why you need the information: your own personal education; you need to witness to Muslims; you need to counter, positively or negatively, statements and beliefs of Muslims etc. And, of course, it is a bit of a minefield once you broaden out from basic texts, you need to be careful which websites you visit.

Some points:

With respect to getting familiar with the source material of Islam there are actually three books:

  1. The Koran (Qur'an) — as stated by Muslims (not me obviously) is the words of Allah given to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel. The Koran is very difficult to follow, it is not organised chronologically but by the longest chapter to the shortest. It jumps around a lot with a lot of repetition. It is only actually 14% of the total Islamic doctrinal text.
  2. The Hadith — the Traditions, first person reported sayings of Mohammed. It is around 60% of the total texts.
  3. Sira - the life of Mohammed, around 26% of the texts.

If you want to understand Islam, not many people do — even Muslims — read the three texts, it is hard work, and not actually that pleasant as Mohammed engages in many activities we as Christians would say were not in keeping with a 'prophet'. It will be an eye opener though, and I stress that what you will read will not be anti-muslim bias texts but their own actual texts which Muslims consider holy. It's all there in their own books — you will be shocked.

The Qur'an translation in Logos is the Yusuf Ali one which is reasonable but as with all standard Korans has the problem already mentioned. The online official Saudi translation of the Koran is a bit more spicy, updated to say in relevant verses that Muslims should use all modern weaponry — guns, tanks, planes, rockets etc. — to forcefully protect and spread Islam.

Logos does not have copies of the Hadith or Sira (that I can see).

If you want a resource for translation of three Islamic texts —  http://cspipublishing.com/. They also have editions of the Koran reassembled chronologically and with notes to make it more meaningful to read. You will struggle with a standard English Koran (because it's jumbled up).

For a fairly reasoned polemic site regarding Islam — http://www.citizenwarrior.com/

_________________________________

p.s. One example of a Hadith (accepted 1st person reported sayings of Mohammed) —  this is in Islam's own books... the B5,59,369 is the book and verse reference.

B5,59,369 Mohammed asked, “Who will kill Ka’b, the enemy of Allah and Mohammed?”

Bin Maslama rose and responded, “O Mohammed! Would it please you if I killed him?”

Mohammed answered, “Yes.”

Bin Maslama then said, “Give me permission to deceive him with lies so that my plot will succeed.”

Mohammed replied, “You may speak falsely to him.”

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 8 2011 1:47 PM

Excellent CD called World of Islam, containing some excellent books by knowledgeable Christians who know and respect Islam, published, I think, by GMI. and another useful resource is an Islamic one, called The Alim, which has the Qur'an in English (various tRANSLATIONs,) and Arabic, with recitation, and the Hadith, and probably lots more that I haven't investigated.  I think they are about $40 each.   Very good investment.  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 8 2011 11:32 PM

Y2K2:
 English translations of the Koran are often slanted in order to give a favorable view of Islam, leaving out passages that would be offensive to the Western mind set.

Do you know which translations? I certainly want to know if any of my Korans are not the entire Koran.

I find http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/  to be a good online resource

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 9 2011 2:27 AM

MJ. Smith:

Y2K2:
 English translations of the Koran are often slanted in order to give a favorable view of Islam, leaving out passages that would be offensive to the Western mind set.

Do you know which translations? I certainly want to know if any of my Korans are not the entire Koran.

I find http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/  to be a good online resource

For a listing of most English translations this (Islamic bias) website,

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/default.htm

has a matrix of chapters (Surah) and verses (Ayah) which when you click on one it gives the verse in the various translations. Here's a couple of verses to start with, I have put a link directly to the first one, the others you can navigate to from link above:

Surah 47, Ayah 4 = 47:4 (link) ; 8:12

The Oxford Islamic Studies website has as Editor, John Esposito, and he (center he runs) received funding by the Saudis ($20 Million), so I believe it will be clear what his bias is. For a refutation of his bias, and information about him one can look here and here and for an analysis document here.

 

Again one has to judge the bias of the website being looked at, or the person (me included) speaking. Which is why I would recommend that all Christians should read enough of the Islamic source texts to get a clear understanding of the religious and political mindset, and goals of Islam, and what they say about you a Christian (hint: it's not nice). Given that we all have busy lives, with little desire to immerse ourselves in the Muslim mindset that's where the publications of the Koran/Hadith/Sira from CSPI Publishing are helpful. They are also available on Amazon.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 9 2011 8:27 AM

MJ. Smith:

Y2K2:
 English translations of the Koran are often slanted in order to give a favorable view of Islam, leaving out passages that would be offensive to the Western mind set.

Do you know which translations? I certainly want to know if any of my Korans are not the entire Koran.

I find http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/  to be a good online resource

I believe the Shia claim that the Sunni have omitted some verses that favour Ali as the true first Caliph, but I have not found anyone who can tell me what these verses are.  I think it may be a similar sort of claim to the claim that we have changed the Bible to cut out prophecies about Muhammad.

I'd be interested to know what passages are claimed to have been omitted in English translations to give a more favorable view of Islam.   Until I have chapter and verse (or rather SUra!) I shall not be able to believe this.  I have a (Paper) parallel text Kur'an, with English, Arabic and Arabic transliterated into English alphabet.  I use this to check things like whether the Kur'an says the Holy Spirit is the Angel Xhibril.  I find the explanations in brackets are traditional explanation and do not necessarily correspond with the Arabic text.  e.g. Holy Spirit in Arabic Qur'an is Holy Spirit and Angel Xhibril is a gloss, and the name of Ibrahim's son that he was going to sacrifice is not given in the Arabic text, tho Muslims understand it to be Ismail.

There are digests of the Hadith which omit  various parts that can be embarrassing, e.g. that there is only one version of the Qur'an because one Caliph ordered all other versions to be burnt.  The Alim CD did not help me find that.  It was there and I eventually found it, but only because I knew what I was looking for and looked for it!

Incidentally there is a good resource by Norman Geisler and Abu Saleeb in the Normal Geisler collection.  It might be worth buying the collection as it's only about $49.  I ordered it, till I found I would have to pay over half as much again for postage, so I unordered it - have been caught that way before with what looked like a cheap resource...  

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 9 2011 9:46 AM

nicky crane:
I ordered it, till I found I would have to pay over half as much again for postage, so I unordered it - have been caught that way before with what looked like a cheap resource...

If you talk nicely with a sales rep it might be possible to have it 'shipped' to him. He can then open the package, enter the code and throw away the disc. No shipping cost and no VAT. They've done it for me in the past. I don't know if they can do it with all products, though, or only with certain publishers, and as I understand it you have to ask for it yourself; they're not allowed to publicize the possibility. 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 9 2011 2:33 PM

Thanks, I'll ask.  I don't think it's from Logos, as they only charge me something like $4.45 for disk AND shipping.  Whereas this was about $27, which I think is extortionate when Logos can do it for under $5.  Logos resources tend to be expensive (and good value with it), but they'll send you a disk for what must be only about cost price.  When I first got Logos 3 and ordered CDs, I then realised I could have done is more simply with a single DVD.  I wasn't in time to get a DVD instead of CDs, but the sales rep put a DVD in the post as well for no extra charge! 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 9 2011 3:22 PM

Patrick S.:
The Oxford Islamic Studies website has as Editor, John Esposito, and he (center he runs) received funding by the Saudis ($20 Million), so I believe it will be clear what his bias is. For a refutation of his bias, and information about him one can look here and here and for an analysis document here.

I think I read the original post a bit differently than you. I thought the request was for Islamic resources to understand Islam rather than Christian resources to refute Islam.

Patrick S.:
goals of Islam, and what they say about you a Christian (hint: it's not nice)

Again, this is not my experience - from the influence of Islam on the Orthodox theologian Gregory Palamas, to the Islamic interactions of Francis of Assisi to much of mainstream Islam today - including a Muslim couple who assist at Catholic-sponsored charities in order to meet. their social service obligations. My experience is that I can easily find Muslims who say not nice things about Christians, Christians who say not nice things about Buddhists, Parsee's who say not nice things about Muslims, Protestants who say not nice things about Catholics ... I am usually more interested in the mainstream than the hateful. I find that the hateful is frequently political and cultural using religion in hateful ways rather than the religion itself promoting hateul behavior.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 10 2011 10:02 AM

MJ. Smith:

Patrick S.:
The Oxford Islamic Studies website has as Editor, John Esposito, and he (center he runs) received funding by the Saudis ($20 Million), so I believe it will be clear what his bias is. For a refutation of his bias, and information about him one can look here and here and for an analysis document here.

I think I read the original post a bit differently than you. I thought the request was for Islamic resources to understand Islam rather than Christian resources to refute Islam.

So did I, and I recommended that people really need to go to the source texts rather than second hand. You were the person who brought up Oxford Islamic Studies website, which means John Esposito, and the fact is that he most definitely has a strong, perhaps even radical, Islamic bias (which people should be aware of) and the fact is that his organisation has been given $20 million by the Saudis, that's on record. So again people should be aware of that when they read material from that website.

 

MJ. Smith:

Patrick S.:
goals of Islam, and what they say about you a Christian (hint: it's not nice)

Again, this is not my experience - from the influence of Islam on the Orthodox theologian Gregory Palamas, to the Islamic interactions of Francis of Assisi to much of mainstream Islam today - including a Muslim couple who assist at Catholic-sponsored charities in order to meet. their social service obligations. My experience is that I can easily find Muslims who say not nice things about Christians, Christians who say not nice things about Buddhists, Parsee's who say not nice things about Muslims, Protestants who say not nice things about Catholics ... I am usually more interested in the mainstream than the hateful. I find that the hateful is frequently political and cultural using religion in hateful ways rather than the religion itself promoting hateul behavior.

Well for all of those examples of 'nice' Muslims you list, people could bring out more than 100:1 against examples of 'not nice' Muslims. From the whole tribe of 600-900 Jews in Banu Quraiza who were calmly slaughtered by beheading over the period of a day by order of the 'prophet' Mohammed, to the slaughter of 21 Christians in Egypt on New Years.

Yet again though it is not the individuals we are talking about, but the ideology, the rule which they, perfectly or not, follow. For the nice Muslims you have been fortunate enough to meet one could say, as does Romans 2:14, that they are, by their (human) nature, following the law of life. But that has nothing to do with the tenets of Islam — it's the same (in reverse) for situations where a (yet another) tele-evangelist succumbs to sexual sin. Then Christians try to talk to non-Christians about conversion and people "well what about so-and-so, he's a Christian and he's doing" [name your sin here]. As much as we try to talk to those people and say "well this person may say their a Christian but they are not following what the Bible says...".

Same case here. Just because there are 'nice' Muslims (and we all know there are) that does not change the fact that their holy texts say completely the opposite — and I believe that is what we were talking about. Do you want me to list all the texts in the Koran, Hadith & Sira that say that Jews and Christians are vile infidels and will burn in Hell and it is OK to kill, abuse and misuse them, and that Jesus is not God, and that it is OK to have sex with nine year olds, and to cut off the heads of unbelievers (anyone not a Muslim)?

The texts are there, just as Luke 6:27 and Luke 23:24 are in our Bible, and I really do not think anyone who compares the spirit of the texts in the Koran with the Spirit in the New Testament would say they were in any way similar.

So this is nothing about being 'hateful' (and I sincerely hope you were not putting that epithet onto me) it is about understanding the source texts of Islam to see what they really say. Which is what the person was originally asking — and to which I said one should really read the Islamic source texts.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 1563
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 10 2011 10:38 AM

Clearly, there are plenty of resources out there that will confirm pre-existing anti-Muslim bias.

It's equally clear that Islam is not Christianity. Does that really surprise anyone? However, it is far from clear that Islam today is an inherently violent and evil religion.  Texts must be read sympathetically and in historical context. Judeo-Christians naturally object to non-contextual atheist readings of Genesis or the violent "ehtnic cleansing" models of Joshua/Judges or the imprecatory psalms. Just as there are those within the Christian tradition who provide easy targets for those who wish to hold them up as examples of  what's wrong with the entire tradition (i.e. YEC Evangelicals on the science side, or David Koresh on the crazy/violent/eschatological side or snake-handling Pentecostals on the irrational side), so are there those who look at particular Muslim groups, tie them to the textual roots of those Muslims' interpretation, and then insist that those faults and evils apply to the religion as a whole.

It is unfair to do so.

While there is an obvious violent strain within Islam that can be grounded in the text, the vast majority of the worlds 1.5 billion+ Muslims are peaceful moderate people, as are most Christians (setting aside the IRA in Ireland, the David Koresh's, the Crusades, etc.).

John Esposito is not a crypto-Muslim terrorist, nor is Oxford Press a front for propaganda. Is it any surprise that an Arabic sponsor would give money for an Islamic studies building? Should Muslims distrust any US or Christian-funded buildings at Middle Eastern universities?

I've studied Arabic, I lived in the Middle east for a few months, and my brother has lived in Egypt and currently lives in Saudi Arabia.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 10 2011 11:51 AM

Sorry I'm starting to get a little incredulous with some of these responses...

Ben:

Clearly, there are plenty of resources out there that will confirm pre-existing anti-Muslim bias.

"anti-Muslim bias"? Where did you get that from, yet again I am not talking about 'plenty of resources' I am specifically talking about the Islamic source texts — the Koran, the Hadith, the Sira. The books which Muslims have to accept (or they are free to be killed as apostates — it's in the book) are the literal, exact, infallible words of Allah supposedly dictated to Mohammed — the Koran, or books which give detailed, precise examples of how they are to live — Hadith, Sira.

Ben:

However, it is far from clear that Islam today is an inherently violent and evil religion.  Texts must be read sympathetically and in historical context.

Reading in historical context is what I am doing — for example Muhammed didn't like someone, he told people to kill that person, they did. They then recorded for all time what they did; and they say — in black and white — that Muhammed is the perfect role model for humanity. Sorry I, and thousands of people including former Muslims, have to disagree with you that Islam is not inherently — as it is directed by their source texts — a violent religion.

Ben:

Judeo-Christians naturally object to non-contextual atheist readings of Genesis or the violent "ehtnic cleansing" models of Joshua/Judges or the imprecatory psalms.

We're not talking about the Old Testament, we're talking 600 years after the New Testament. I don't see records of Jesus or the Apostles going around beheading 600-900 Jews, having multiple wives or having sexual relations with nine year olds (it's in their books).

Ben:

Just as there are those within the Christian tradition who provide easy targets for those who wish to hold them up as examples of  what's wrong with the entire tradition (i.e. YEC Evangelicals on the science side, or David Koresh on the crazy/violent/eschatological side or snake-handling Pentecostals on the irrational side), so are there those who look at particular Muslim groups, tie them to the textual roots of those Muslims' interpretation, and then insist that those faults and evils apply to the religion as a whole.

Yes there are some loopy people who say "god told me to do it". So? Does that change the fact that the textual foundation of Islam is very clearly not breathed from the same Spirit which inspired the New Testament Christians and continues to inspire people 2,000 years later.

Ben:

While there is an obvious violent strain within Islam that can be grounded in the text, the vast majority of the worlds 1.5 billion+ Muslims are peaceful moderate people, as are most Christians (setting aside the IRA in Ireland, the David Koresh's, the Crusades, etc.).

I'll answer you with a quote from Wafa Sultan (you can Google her, she is a person who escaped from Islam)

Wafa Sultan:

The problem with Christians is they aren't as good as Jesus. But thank God most Muslims are better than Muhammad.

Which is one of the points I was making in my previous post.

Ben:

John Esposito is not a crypto-Muslim terrorist, nor is Oxford Press a front for propaganda. Is it any surprise that an Arabic sponsor would give money for an Islamic studies building? Should Muslims distrust any US or Christian-funded buildings at Middle Eastern universities?

Where did I say John Esposito is a "crypto-Muslim terrorist"? I said his organisation was funded $20 million by the Saudis. So therefore I would take it pretty likely that he has a Saudi influenced Islamic bias — therefore I will remember that when I read anything he says about Islam. Sounds pretty sound to me.

Do you admire the Saudis?? I certainly hope not. 

Ben:

I've studied Arabic, I lived in the Middle east for a few months, and my brother has lived in Egypt and currently lives in Saudi Arabia.

Don't be offended but, yes, so what? How does your personal experience change what is written in the Koran, Hadith, Sira which say all the things they say which are antithetical to our Christian beliefs and spirit and human life and dignity.

Please also note in all of the replies I have answered — I have never said we as Christians should hate or despise Muslims — of course not. In fact, as we know, we are challenged to do the complete opposite — to love the people who against as Christians are despising and killing us.  I don't know about you, but I have to pray hard to enter into that sort of grace.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 10 2011 12:21 PM

I have requested that this thread be frozen as it is well outside the quidelines in tone.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5622
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 10 2011 12:38 PM

MJ. Smith:

I have requested that this thread be frozen as it is well outside the quidelines in tone.

I disagree about the tone--I don't believe anyone is being attacked here--but it has perhaps gone off topic. The original poster wasn't clear in his intentions, and he hasn't yet posted a reponse, so I don't think it would be beneficial to him to lock the thread.  I have found the thread to be beneficial in indentifying external sources from all parties, and the discussion has been helpful in judging the viewpoints of the various sources.

Perhaps Logos would do well to make works published by both CSPI and Oxford Islamic Studies available in Logos.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 10 2011 12:59 PM

Deleted and moved offline

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 10 2011 1:36 PM

An important facet of Islam that we have not yet mentioned in this thread is Folk Islam, practised by an estimated 90% of Muslims, even orthodox Muslims, and largely communicated by oral tradition - tho I have seen the occasional book of spells.  Bill Musk's The Unseen Face of Islam, and David Burnett , is helpful on this.  Interestingly an experienced missionary who had worked for decades among Muslims, if I remember rightly, told me I would not need to read Musk as the Albanian Muslims among whom I would be living are Bektashi, not folk Muslims.  How wrong he was!  Folk Islam and exotic legends are what shape the thinking of people here.  Plus anything they here.  Very few of them read the Qur'an, fewer still the Hadith.  Their understanding of Islam is shaped by tradition - and the media.

I've been sharply criticised by other Christians for refusing to speak against Islam, on the grounds that God called me here to proclaim Christ, not to attack Islam.  I've also been criticised, and had stones thrown at my jeep on more than one occasion, for "making propaganda about Jesus in a Muslim village."  In order to try to help Muslims meet Jesus, I need to love and respect them and take the trouble to try to understand what they believe.  Books help, I've got shelves full of them, but listening and loving helps infinitely more.

I'd love to see Logos produce a good Islamic collection, if that's not too much a specialised interest.

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