I was & am wondering why Bullinger's Critical Lexicon & Concordance isn't taking off the way I thought it would. Is it because there's not a lot of interest in this type of Book or are we right on the threshold of it going to Logos?
I am already in. Link supplied http://www.logos.com/product/8512/a-critical-lexicon-and-concordance-to-the-english-and-greek-new-testament
Ted, I'm in but was kind of hoping it would be made available by now. Hopeful thinking, hey?
Is it because there's not a lot of interest in this type of Book
I'm not interested. Maybe someone could tell me why I would want a century-old lexicon and concordance when I already have 7 more recent Greek lexicons and the search capabilities of Logos?
I was & am wondering why Bullinger's Critical Lexicon & Concordance isn't taking off the way I thought it would. Is it because there's not a lot of interest in this type of Book
The people who are interested in Greek generally have far more modern lexicons already, and with Logos' search function we don't really need concordances any more. So I guess most of us simply think "yet another lexicon? Why on earth would I want that?" when we see that title. If you find it valuable and want it to move quicker, the best thing to do would be to write a post trying to explain to us why we really really need it.
Also, an old thick lexicon with lots of Greek and no electronic files is very expensive to produce. Lots of complicated typing, tagging and proof reading. At $7, it's going to need a huge number of bidders before the costs are covered. And they won't start producing until they are. If you read this post, you will gain some understanding of what's involved in publishing something like this.
Todd, I've no more interest in writing why you should have this Lexicon than you have in having it incorporated into Logos. Appreciate your reply though.
Fgh, someone must have had a bit of interest in this, or it would not have been posted in the first place. As to its cost and the huge number of bidders to get it going - I'm somewhat aware, but not much, of the cost of getting it up there where we can have it Logos.
As to my question per se, I think the two of you have given me that much of an impression that this excellent Lexicon won't be around for a while to come. Very good gentlemen!!!
Why not? If you would share with us why you want it, you may be able to drum up more interest (and bids) for a product you want. It's in your best interest, isn't it? Even if you don't convince me, you might convince others.
Todd, I've used it especially for prepositions. I find it excellent this way whereas for instance, Vines does not do so much on that. I understand other Lexicons do this, but I've especially appreciated Bullinger on at least this one point.
Even with the other Lexicons I've got, I still find myself going to this one in the printed form. But apparently you're not alone in a low interest for this - I've suggested this to other Bible software producers but over the years, it's kind of been put on ignore. :-)
it's kind of been put on ignore
Logos isn't ignoring it; to the contrary: they've put it in CP. Now it's up to us to order it, and persuade others to order it, They can't produce things that only cover 25% of their costs (which is about where this currently is). They'd soon go bankrupt if they did. Plus it wouldn't be fair to produce resources few people want before resources lots of people are waiting for.
Plenty of resources on CP and pre-pub have moved excruciatingly slowly, but people who've wanted them have kept pushing them and kept writing posts about how useful they are, and eventually they've gone over the top. You can do the same, or you can sit back and wait. It's your choice. Even at $7 people won't order a resource they've never heard about unless someone gives them a good reason to. How about scanning one of those preposition pages you like and posting it here, so that people can judge it?
(Btw, I'm not a man, gentle or otherwise.)
Bootjack .... a good part of the problem with this lexicon is that it's not apparent from the writeup exactly what the benefit is (as Todd has observed).
'The volume's organization by English head words' (I mainly use the greek/hebrew forms, but ok) .... 'Rather than being organized by Greek, Bullinger determined to make the King James Version the central organizing principle.' (huh?) .... 'Bullinger helpfully provides citations of other manuscripts and critical editions, including the texts of Griesbach, Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, and the manuscript Codex Sinaiticus' (that sounds pretty important; I just don't know whether my big-boys already cover the waterfront) ... 'These additional references take the reader well beyond the features of Strong's by allowing them to judge and decide for themselves what is the true text and what is not. ' (wow, at last .... though I suspect this is an 1800s claim?) .
From that write-up, I'm guessing it's a Vines equivalent that supplemented Strongs at the time, though again not sure the value (even at $7). I know you're a bit frustrated but I've read the writeup several times over the months and haven't seen what it is really offering (obviously someone at Logos thinks it's worth it).
Thank you for your response Denise. I'm thinking those who have the printed form of this Book would appreciate it incorporated into Logos. You mention it being a Vines equivalent - It's really a whole different format that Vines.
I'm really not frustrated at it not being a part of Logos - I would like it to be. But at this point, I'll not throw myself out through the basement window in despair or anything of the like. :-)
When I first saw it up here on the Logos site, I was and am still kind of hopeful it will be brought to the forefront where we can obtain it. But if not, that'll be ok too. Again, thanks for your reply!!! :-)
And to thee O fgh, I would have found it difficult to know whether you were a male or female by them there initials!!?! :-}
Observation: Logos 4 Bible Word Study (BWS) provides a way to see all Greek words translated for an English word (ring display). Also, Greek lexicon resources with Louw-Nida numbering provide semantic domain (contextual) glosses. Looking at sample pages reminds me of an Englishman's Greek Concordance, which was useful in my pre-Logos days.
Keep Smiling [:)]
Understand that. And you make an excellent point. Thanks!!!
Is it because there's not a lot of interest in this type of Book I'm not interested. Maybe someone could tell me why I would want a century-old lexicon and concordance when I already have 7 more recent Greek lexicons and the search capabilities of Logos?
I really only see any use for a few Greek lexica: BDAG, LSJ, Lampe and lesser use for Louw-Nida, Lust, Eynkel, Hauspie. Others may be of use for historical purposes, but, unless you want to do a study of Greek lexicography, I don't see much use for others such as Strong's, Barclay Newman, Thayer, and Bullinger.
George, it's good that all isn't left up to one man's opinion regarding Lexicons, hey?
I really only see any use for a few Greek lexica: BDAG, LSJ, Lampe and lesser use for Louw-Nida, Lust, Eynkel, Hauspie.
George, you forgot Muraoka!
I really only see any use for a few Greek lexica: BDAG, LSJ, Lampe and lesser use for Louw-Nida, Lust, Eynkel, Hauspie. George, you forgot Muraoka!
ΟΚ. I really only see any use for a few Greek lexica: BDAG, LSJ, Lampe and lesser use for Louw-Nida, Lust, Eynkel, Hauspie and Muraoka.
Bootjack...thank you for asking your question...if for no other reason than I now know you have found this lexicon helpful with prepositions (building blocks to understanding language, and the hardest thing re: translating/contextualisation in my opinion). I had never heard of this resource, although I am familiar with Bullinger's "Companion Bible" and of course "Figures of Speech used in the Bible". I would like to see the Companion Bible added at some stage because I have personally benefited from the footnotes.
I have to say, the way you were answered makes me not want to ask many questions on the forums anymore in case I'm making myself look silly. Do you have to be a graduate of Seminary to interact here, or are questions from a thick head bouncer like myself still encouraged...lol!?!? I'd like you to know that so many have treated this non-academic with respect, and willingly answered my questions, no matter how primary school they have sounded. I just hope you weren't too put off by it, but as your gracious responces displayed such Christian humility, I'd wreckon you're okay!
God bless.
Is mebin!!! I appreciate your note. As to being put off with several of the responses, one allows such to roll off the back as water off a greased up Duck!!! :-}
One does well to remember, these comments regarding Lexicons are but opinions and not more. Thayers / Strongs / especially Bullingers are Lexicons / Dictionaries that have given too much help over the years to have them considered "lesser" or "not much" --- Indeed, where does that leave Logos???
I'd encourage you to ask questions - eat the fish - spit out the bones!!! The Lord bless ya sir!!! :-}
You mean to say that you got onto the forum without being a seminary grad !! [:D] [;)] Just kidding, naturally. There are all sorts of members of the forum -- from absolute novice to PhD. That comes in helpful when you need some particularly sticky question answered (or at least discussed). Feel entirely free to ask questions since we need to make the MVPs earn their keep. [:)] [Shh ... don't tell anyone, but they don't get paid].
Bootjack...you're affiliation with Bullinger's Lexicon probably mirror's that of mine with Thayer's...I gleaned most of what I know (which isn't much...lol) from it, whether the information is a hundred years old or not. Strongs I only really used as a concordance, and then went to Thayer's for the lexical data.
George...thanks mate, I am the sort of guy who wears his heart on his sleeve (bit like Shrek..lol), so I just said what I felt...but as I've said, my personal experience has been very, very positive. Some great answers, and even though the number of my posts dont match that of Mr Black, I have read every single thing posted in the last couple of months!!!
I actually get such a community feel from these forums, and for me at the moment it is the only contact with Christians I really get...so it seems important to me even more so to treat each other as members of the body of Christ as well as members of the forum.
Blessings to all.
I have to say, the way you were answered makes me not want to ask many questions on the forums anymore in case I'm making myself look silly.
This shouldn't be a consideration - we MVP's are quite capable of making ourselves look silly without any help.[:P] But seriously, the question asked makes a big difference in how it is answered. We haven't quite had threads to which the answer is "begin by plugging in your computer" but there are threads where people were walked through how to download L4. At the other extreme are requests for help building syntax searches for grammatical constructs I couldn't decipher. Rest assured we try to live with the motto "the only stupid question is the question not asked."
Bootjack...thank you for asking your question...if for no other reason than I now know you have found this lexicon helpful with prepositions (building blocks to understanding language, and the hardest thing re: translating/contextualisation in my opinion).
For prepositions, personally learned a lot from Chapter XIII in A.T. Robertson's Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research that is included in Scholar's Platinum and Porfolio packages. logosres:ggntlhr;ref=Page.p_553
Nunn's Syntax, Elements, and Key to the Elements of New Testament Greek is included with Original Languages and Scholar's Silver (or higher).
Nunn's "A Short Syntax of New Testament Greek" has a preposition summary: logosres:nunnsyntax;ref=NunnSyntax.Nunn_$C2$A71,_12;off=6596 (formatted bit different than Bullinger's Greek Lexicon, yet similar content: compared various meanings for Bullinger's above with Nunn's short summary).
Thankful for Logos 4 Bible Word Study (BWS) showing preposition picture, am aware that prepositions have wider range of meaning (depending on case and context).
I have to say, the way you were answered makes me not want to ask many questions on the forums anymore in case I'm making myself look silly. This shouldn't be a consideration - we MVP's are quite capable of making ourselves look silly without any help. But seriously, the question asked makes a big difference in how it is answered. We haven't quite had threads to which the answer is "begin by plugging in your computer" but there are threads where people were walked through how to download L4. At the other extreme are requests for help building syntax searches for grammatical constructs I couldn't decipher. Rest assured we try to live with the motto "the only stupid question is the question not asked."
This shouldn't be a consideration - we MVP's are quite capable of making ourselves look silly without any help. But seriously, the question asked makes a big difference in how it is answered. We haven't quite had threads to which the answer is "begin by plugging in your computer" but there are threads where people were walked through how to download L4. At the other extreme are requests for help building syntax searches for grammatical constructs I couldn't decipher. Rest assured we try to live with the motto "the only stupid question is the question not asked."
Thankful for Logos forum interaction that promotes use of Logos Bible Software and resources with friendly discussions (sometimes includes silly remarks [:$]).
For original language study, couple other pre-publications lack sufficient interest:
Biblical Languages: Reference Grammars and Introductions (19 vols.)
Friedrich Blass Greek Studies Collection (3 vols.)
Also some community pricing items (like Bullinger) lack enough bids:
A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek
Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges (21 vols.)
Georg Curtius Greek Studies Collection (4 vols.)
Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics also has a chart depicting the understanding of prepositions if you happen to be a visual learner (p 358).
Many of the older lexicons such as this one and Thayer's are greatly out dated because of huge discoveries since they were written. For example during their times is was thought that the Greek of the NT was some kind of special Holy Ghost language they did not know it was the Greek of the normal people and merchants. Since that time they found many documents that have helped show the meanings of words that they did not know at that time.
In the case of Lexicons many of those that use them often know this, and so they don't rush to buy the outdated ones. However others that don't know these things will see all lexicons as being equal, and so they buy one of the less expensive ones thinking that they must all be about the same.
Copyrights also factor into things, Thayers is found all over the net for free as is Strong's for new people to word studies these seem like real gold compared to nothing, and they are right! However, many people never go any further than these golden oldies and they never know about their problems and these people will buy a Thayers or Bullinger for their Logos.
The problem you are having are people like myself, I know I need to spend my money on the better lexicons, I have seen copies of Bullinger and Thayers and can't see bidding on them because I am not in the market for what they offer. Keep in mind I am work on a THD. There was a time I would have wanted this, but those days are behind me.
By the way I used Vine a lot back in the early 70's and I thought it was great, I mean I loved that thing, I have it in Logos 4, but I would never think of using it today, not that it is not helpful, but rather I have gone on from there.
I hope this is helpful to understand why more people are not bidding on Bullinger's Lexicon. The good older Lexicons can steer you the wrong way, much easier than a good new one can.
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
Funny you mention that resource George...that is the only reason I even heard of L4...well it was Libronix at the time. I saw this resource as a stand alone product back in 2003 whilst honeymooning in Cairns (the old green covered one)...convinced the wife to let me buy it...but could never make it work (there was a problem with the time frames from installing it to registering). Finally found someone to unlock it for me (seven years later) and realized Libronix was now L4 and so I looked into it...rest is history as they say.
On an even funnier note...why is it that whenever a resource is mentioned on the forums I still go to my shelf library? I have platinum L4 (with Robertsons, and finally have Wallace in my library) but old habits are hard to break. The main reason for going to L4 was to reduce the space needed for all the books I'd like...lol. Does anyone else still naturally go to the shelf first, without even thinking to use the resources that are on your PC?
Thank you for the helps with prepositons...I am reviewing the charts as we speak.
On an even funnier note...why is it that whenever a resource is mentioned on the forums I still go to my shelf library?
For forum discussions (and personal use), have a Logos 4 floating window open with Library, Collections, and Search tabs.
For A.T. Robertson, no longer have temptation to reach for shelf library since no longer have physical copy of Grammar.
Wish Greek Enchiridion was available in Logos => http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Enchiridion-Handbook-Translation-Exegesis/dp/0913573183 (p 132 has preposition picture with case usage footnotes)
By the way, Logos has downloadable Greek and Hebrew Paradigm Charts
If you'd like to regain that experience, I have a print copy I'd be willing to part with relatively cheaply. [;)] I had L3 at the time, but Wallace was about the only thing available for the study of Greek (Hebrew was even worse). When Logos came out with A.T., I jumped on it. I finally sold my print copy of BDAG even after trying to persuade the guy that it would be good for him to get the Logos version.
Many of the older lexicons such as this one and Thayer's are greatly out dated because of huge discoveries since they were written.
Thayer's in the one I encounter most frequently among those new to the study of Greek or who are simply too cheap to buy good tools. It was the discovery of the Oxyrhynchus papyri which brought about this sea change in Greek lexicography and grammar. Deissmann's Bible Studies and Light from the Ancient East more or less put a nail in the coffin of the old language studies (available in Logos). At the time Winer was the standard grammar, but he was "old school." Moulton and Milligan published a lexicon making use of the papyri (in Logos too). You'll probably note that they are almost always cited in BDAG (as they were in the previous edition known as BAG). I'm hoping that we will some day see the publication of the papyri in Logos as well. In the meantime, if you don't have BDAG, sell your first-born child and buy it.
Well Is Mebin, I would think your original comment put sputter and life back into this particular thread. I've appreciated the helps - pointers - opinions that have rumbled forth since. Thank you guys!!! Appreciated.
You'll probably note that they are almost always cited in BDAG (as they were in the previous edition known as BAG).
It should be emphasized that BDAG doesn't replace M-M on this front. The citation of M-M tends to merely mean that M-M has an entry on the word--and not that information from M-M was culled into BDAG.
Does anyone else still naturally go to the shelf first, without even thinking to use the resources that are on your PC?
Yes, but you can get over that bad habit. First put all your "dead-tree" books in a storage unit away from your house. Then start adding to your Logos resources when you discover you reach for a certain book (located in storage now) that you don't have in your Logos library. Once you quit reaching for the books on the shelf (because you now have them in Logos) start liquidating your library by gifting the old books to a student or selling them and investing in more Logos.
The bad news is; you will someday buy a duplicate resource in Logos because you can't see it on your shelves. [8-|] The good news is; Customer Service can help you correct that mistake.
The bad news is; you will someday buy a duplicate resource in Logos because you can't see it on your shelves.
Yes, that's bad. The grey button at least is a step into the right direction, but I actually would like to see some Amazon-like features on the site: "you bought this on ..." would solve part of your problem, but I think a more complete flagging of the resources would be beneficial for users as well as for logos:
- own it in Logos (could be populated from order history, but better from licence database to include CD-ROM ressources bought at 3rd parties, manual flagging seems feasible for people like me who don't own a big package with thousands of resources)
- own it outside of Logos (I do buy some resources I own in paper or electronically, as the Logos integration makes all of the difference), to not inadvertently spend double money. Nice to have would be a split between "own it electronically outside of Logos" (such as CCEL pdfs) and "own it on paper"
- want to buy it (the wishlist - noting that some people can't stand resources sitting overly long on a wishlist....)
Mick
First put all your "dead-tree" books in a storage unit away from your house. Then start adding to your Logos resources when you discover you reach for a certain book (located in storage now) that you don't have in your Logos library.
Yes my friend, now that my garage is full, and the storage unit we rent is chocka block...I know not what to do...lol.
Once you quit reaching for the books on the shelf (because you now have them in Logos) start liquidating your library by gifting the old books to a student or selling them and investing in more Logos.
I have begun donating books I'd never use to people over the last few years...and I will start getting rid of my good books that I now have in L4...but what about favourites? Even though I own NICNT in L4, I can't see me ever giving my copies of F F Bruce's contributions away in print form...lol, or my copies of J B Lightfoot's commentaries! And those sets that look so magnificent on your shelf...can I please keep one bookshelf in my lounge room for such (eg. John Owen, 38 vol church fathers, Calvins commentaries, works of Arminius, Creeds of Christendom, Barths's Dogmatics, works of John Newton, and so on).
The only ones I really need still are the academic books I have re: DSS and the like, not in L4, and not likely to be. This would still take up all the space in my study anyhow...so this is the goal.
How long have we been waiting for this?[|-)][:^)][8-)]
https://www.logos.com/product/8512/a-critical-lexicon-and-concordance-to-the-english-and-greek-new-testament
[|-)]
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