Wednesday Crucifixion?

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 1 2019 6:08 AM

Denise:

The KJV 'gone from me' is a Prussian loan word in the aramaic centering around decree or officially announce. Interestingly, the English followed 'gone from me' until the early 1900s.

So ‘gone from me’ is a fair literal translation. That, except for scholars like all of us, gets misunderstood not as a royal command but that the dream was forgotten.
As to if thinking changed around 1900: In the mid-1800s Bible scholarship changed.
By the way some other translations:
The Living Bible But the king replied, “I tell you the dream is gone—I can’t remember it.
NRSV The king answered the Chaldeans, “This is a public decree:
NASB The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, “The command from me is firm
HCSB The king replied to the Chaldeans, “My word is final:

Denise:

BTW David, given your interests, moving from Strongs to Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek is not that big a step. You'd enjoy it.

I reported the Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon reading as that was the one that David Paul quoted. I had checked others that said the same thing.
As for learning Greek and Hebrew, I took typing and two years of bookkeeping in high school. Very unusual for someone on the college track back in the early 60s. Did not find out until years after she was gone but the teacher that would have been my Latin teacher was very instrumental in getting the school to allow me to take those classes as she stated that I would never pass Latin. Spent the last six years of my working career as a bookkeeper.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 1 2019 8:57 AM

David Ames:
I reported the Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon reading

I use New Strongs Guide quite a bit, whenever my brain goes blank ... it's arranged by english, listing the hebrew and greek choices. Very efficient.

But school languages (eg latin) and Logos languages are quite different. The latter allows you to selectively enjoy ... no need for expertise .... few have it.

I learned, traveling around the East (Japan, Korea, China), funny writing can be ignored. But the brain picks it up pretty easily during the day, and enjoyably too. Never an expert, but always learning.

I used to bookkeep many moons back during the calculator age. It was awful, if I was a little bit off. I welcomed the green computer pages!


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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 1 2019 10:35 AM

Denise:
BTW David, given your interests, moving from Strongs to hebrew, aramaic, or greek is not that big a step. You'd enjoy it.

I thought MJ would be the one to take up George's baton, Denise, but I suppose you may carry it if you must. I think this is the second time you've made such a comment.

I don't see a problem with Strong's; it is what it is: widely available, frequently used, pretty much the ONLY lexical resource that gives syllabic emphasis, and on occasion, providing more useful info than the more hoity-toity titles preferred by ivory tower types.  George's molten image, HALOT, is an over-inflated gasbag of irrelevancies and so-what-isms. I'm sure someone somewhere might occasionally squeeze a drop of usefulness out of the forest of German abbreviations, references, and citations that glut HALOT, but for those who just want to know what the word means it's enough that probably 97%+ of the time, it just ends up agreeing with Strong. There are numerous times that HALOT asserts the presence of a separate entry when BDB, TWOT, and even Strong all disagree. But what it mostly comes down to is that in L3 my NASB has a hot-link to Strong's and so its info is immediately available without so much as a click. I might prefer that it was Swanson's Dictionaries of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, but it ain't. I pluck the low hanging fruit unless there is a reason to do otherwise.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 1 2019 11:25 AM

David Paul:
I thought MJ would be the one to take up George's baton, Denise, but I suppose you may carry it if you must. I think this is the second time you've made such a comment.

Actually my thinking is closer to yours, but from an opposite direction.

I don't believe a normal human being knows what another normal human being really means, whether a pastor, or your spouse.

Then, mix current  languages (as in our family)

Then, shift back at least 2,000 years.

Then reduce to the number of available example usages.

At least in the same century.

By the same religious sect.

Ergo, somewhere in the ballpark is realistic. I also avoid HALOT and BDAG for their groupy-ism.

Not to misrepresent MJ, but my primary disagreement with her is the Logos non-sensical application of 'sense'. It's eternally amatuer-ish. A single assigned meaning diagrammed outside the original environment.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 1 2019 3:02 PM

Denise:
Not to misrepresent MJ, but my primary disagreement with her is the Logos non-sensical application of 'sense'. It's eternally amatuer-ish. A single assigned meaning diagrammed outside the original environment.

Hmmm ... I don't remember ever giving an evaluation. I have defended the concept of word-nets as a better way to display meaning than a simple gloss - something I will defend strongly. I will defend the FL implementation as a step towards that ... but I don't recall stating how big a step. I will promote the use of word-nets so that users become comfortable with the concept and its advantages. And I believe that I have complained about the FL reduction to a hierarchy, omission of some interesting relationships, and the simplification of using a English model rather than building from Greek and Hebrew ... while admitting that it may well have been necessary.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9915
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 1 2019 5:41 PM

MJ. Smith:
Hmmm ... I don't remember ever giving an evaluation.

My apologies! But your idea of a hebrew and greek is an excellent idea that would force solving my complaints.


Posts 2324
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 18 2019 6:07 AM

In another thread I was lead to this resource: 

On Pascha: With the Fragments of Melito and Other Material Related to the Quartodecimans: Translation by Melito of Sardis

Near the end was found the following

 Apollinarius, the most holy bishop of Hierapolis in Asia, who was roughly contemporary with the apostles, taught similarly in his treatise on the Pascha, saying as follows:1

 Melito of Sardis. (2016). On Pascha: With the Fragments of Melito and Other Material Related to the Quartodecimans: Translation. (J. Behr, Ed., A. C. Stewart, Trans.) (Second edition, Vol. 55, p. 105). Yonkers, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press.

 “”And they say that on the fourteenth day the Lord ate the sheep with the disciples, and that on the great day of unleavened bread he suffered,””

 “”In the same work the same writer speaks thus:

The fourteenth is the true Pascha of the Lord,

the great sacrifice,

the son of God standing in place of the lamb.

The one being bound is the one who bound the strong man,

and the one being judged is the judge of the living and the dead.

And the one who is betrayed into the hands of sinners to

be crucified is raised above the horns of the unicorn.

And the one whose holy side was pierced

poured forth from his side the two purifications:

water and blood,

word and spirit.

He is buried on the day of Pascha,

and a stone is put over his tomb.”” 

[[My reading is that:  They ate after sundown and by the next sundown He was in the tomb]] 

BUT the authors of the texts did not quote anything on when the resurrection occurred.

 

Posts 4712
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 12 2019 2:15 AM

The various issues associated with the Quartodecimans are widely misunderstood and perhaps unavoidably convoluted. One of the biggest problems is that many languages use the word Pascha (or something similar) as their word for Easter, when the two days literally cannot be identical since Passover refers to the day of His death and Easter refers to the day of His resurrection. Using the exact same terminological reference for two inherently different concepts is a guaranteed recipe for confusion and speaking past those who are inclined to care, whatever their understanding may be. In fact, to add to the possible confusion, the things I just described may have already been causing confusion and discord even at the time Melito wrote. We have a tendency to assume that those who anciently wrote about topics fully understood those topics, but misunderstandings can creep in even in a contemporaneous environment.

As someone who has kept Pessahh as the most holy day of the year for three decades, I can attest to there being significant variations of opinion in how Passover should be kept, with the "early 14th" versus "late 14th" debate being one of the most contentious. As I understand the subject, there is plenty of reason to suspect that some of these issues were "live" at the time Yeishuua` was alive and that these concerns were even maximally affected by His own actions. When this is combined with the fact that the move from Passover observance to Easter observance was primarily motivated by Roman/Gentile shakers' attempts to avoid anything considered Jewish, even if such a move was clearly non-biblical, the whole subject has become clouded in a fog of misunderstanding and surface assumptions.

Posts 2324
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 12 2019 4:53 AM

As always your insight is appreciated 

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