Wednesday Crucifixion?

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This post has 108 Replies | 9 Followers

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 19 2011 6:01 AM

Eric Weiss:

My understanding is that this Logos resource: http://www.logos.com/product/6667/babylonian-and-jerusalem-talmud-collection Talmud Bavli and Talmud Yerushalmi - complements but does not duplicate this Logos resource: http://www.logos.com/product/297/the-mishnah-a-new-translation The Mishnah.

So even if you get Neusner's Talmuds on 4/28/2011 (projected release date), you'll still need his Mishnah to have the text that the "Talmud" (actually the Gemara portion only) is commenting on.

The Talmud is comprised of the Mishnah (text) and the Gemara (commentary on the Mishnah): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemara

I haven't had a close look on these specific resources Logos is offering - so I wasn't aware that the "Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection" contains the Gemara only. Thanks for the advice! Now that I know, I'd say that the title for this offering is at least unfortunate, if not misleading. Like I already said, 'Talmud' can be used synonymously with 'Gemara', but I always tend to think that this isn't academically accurate.

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 19 2011 6:15 AM

Yes ... I'm well aware of the relation of the upcoming resource release and the Mishnah. But I'd hope by this time, people would have already decided whether one or both fit into their studies. If someone hasn't, you really need to take a hard look at the likely Logos selling price in May .... these type of resources don't often get discounted later on since they target a narrow group that would likely already own it.

But that said, I included it in this thread just to remind folks that the whole sequence of events reflects a jewish perspective (in addition to the Son of God and God himself). And the number of resources that speak to the 1st century jewish culture is fairly limited (not talking of Logos). (And yes, the Mishnah and Talmud are later).

In another recent thread was a discussion of the guards. But first off, the first night was 'unguarded'. In western culture, the first night would be 'steal-the-body-night' .... maybe he's not really dead, but as a minimum, the body will really reek after that. So why put guards on the 2nd night and cover the 3rd? And why would jewish leadership even care ... they already knew the resurrection was later, as Lazarus' sister stated  (and if such was even in their belief). And lastly, why was the 3rd day so significant? Matthew references Jonah, but Mark and Luke reference Ninevah (doomed if not repent). Why would jews at the time see significance in the 3rd day?

In each of these questions, there's certainly merit in discussion today. But the participants in the early sequence were all jews ... they had rabbi's. They all (if male) visited the Temple regularly. What we argue about, they likely took for granted.

That's why, at least for some in the Logos family, early jewish writings should have a place in your studies.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 887
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 19 2011 6:22 AM

Theolobias:
I haven't had a close look on these specific resources Logos is offering - so I wasn't aware that the "Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection" contains the Gemara only. Thanks for the advice! Now that I know, I'd say that the title for this offering is at least unfortunate, if not misleading. Like I already said, 'Talmud' can be used synonymously with 'Gemara', but I always tend to think that this isn't academically accurate.

I don't know if the original sets have the Mishnah. All the CDs and the hardbound editions say is that the Mishnah extracts are in bold type:

http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/37070.trade.html?category=academic&category=all

http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/565270.trade.html?&category=all

http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/565287.trade.html?&category=all

This may refer to when the Mishnah is quoted by the Gemara, and may not mean that the Mishnah text is contained in these Talmuds.

 

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 19 2011 6:36 AM

Also, remember we're talking personal translations, here by the same author. The upcoming resource has click-thru to the same author's Mishnah translation and the value in owning both resources (assuming you want to click-thru that is).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 33780
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 19 2011 10:39 AM

If someone wants the definitive Logos word on the inclusion/exclusion of the Mishnah in the Talmuds for the Logos resource, it was posted in the forums when the collection first came up. I think that the Mishnah is included in the sense of quotations being commented on but not in the sense of a single continuous text.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 103
Lonnie Ritchie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 19 2011 1:36 PM

Carey has the most logical explanation of the phrase "three days and three nights."  The crucifixion was on Friday and the Resurrection on Sunday, which constitutes in Jewish thought "three days and three nights."

Lonnie

Posts 759
Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 19 2011 2:42 PM

MJ. Smith:

If someone wants the definitive Logos word on the inclusion/exclusion of the Mishnah in the Talmuds for the Logos resource, it was posted in the forums when the collection first came up. I think that the Mishnah is included in the sense of quotations being commented on but not in the sense of a single continuous text.

One has to wonder why Logos has to post this in the forums (where half the people interested in this collection won't recognize it) in the first place, when it would be so much easier to just make a clear statement on the product's page ...

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

Posts 2875
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 7:54 AM

Gethsemane   [start throwing monkey wrench]  Define death please.

If you eat you will die – they ate - they died - but when did they die? (See Gen)

When they ate? (Spiritual death  Or when they stopped breathing hundreds of years later?

Most (all?) Christian churches teach that Jesus was without sin – [was He the only truly alive person on the planet at that time?] - Then at Gethsemane He took on all of our sins.  Was that the moment that He died or when He stopped breathing some 21 hours later?

 

By assuming He died when He took on our sins, as they died when they ate, He was also dead on Thursday night. (Spiritually)  Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights give three nights! 

 

Did He mean breath death or spiritual death?  [End throwing monkey wrench]

  [Throwing monkey wrench – US English saying meaning causing trouble]

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 11:38 AM

David Ames:
Gethsemane   [start throwing monkey wrench]  Define death please.

Interesting line of thought ... thanks.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 20
Robert Holmes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 1:41 PM

Not sure of the exact timing but as the song says - 'He arose'

Robert

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 2:05 PM

Peace and Blessing, David!

*smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 489
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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 2:58 PM

MJ. Smith:

If someone wants the definitive Logos word on the inclusion/exclusion of the Mishnah in the Talmuds for the Logos resource, it was posted in the forums when the collection first came up. I think that the Mishnah is included in the sense of quotations being commented on but not in the sense of a single continuous text.

This question was answered here.

Short answer: We are producing the entirety of the Talmud--Mishnah and Gemara--but the Talmud does not comment on, and therefore does not include, the entirety of the Mishnah.

Posts 2875
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 4:20 PM

TO: Milford Charles Murray

thanks for the reply - there is a slight difference between the two wrenches

In the US if you want a bad result you throw a wrench

If you really want very bad results you throw the monkey wrench   

Posts 19333
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 5:46 PM

David Ames:

TO: Milford Charles Murray

thanks for the reply - there is a slight difference between the two wrenches

In the US if you want a bad result you throw a wrench

If you really want very bad results you throw the monkey wrench   

And in the UK you throw a spanner into the works.

Oops, I didn't really see by Milford's post that he'd already shown the UK version of the word wrench.

And as a speaker of US English, I never knew there was a difference between the meaning of the phrase whether you use throwing a wrench or throwing a monkey wrench.

I wonder why mechanics got the reputation of being "monkeys"? We call their jumpsuits "monkey suits" and we call them "grease monkeys."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 6:08 PM

Rosie Perera:
And in the UK you throw a spanner into the works.

From a Logos search for throw spanner, found: "bung a spanner into the works —P. G. Altbach"

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2011 8:59 PM

Rosie Perera:
I wonder why mechanics got the reputation of being "monkeys"?

"grease monkey - n. a mechanic, esp. one who works on automobiles or airplanes. 1928 Gravatt "Pioneers" 251: All the way down the line.from skilled draftsmen in a polished office to the 'grease monkeys' with blackened faces and smeary over-alls." Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 3:49 AM

John Kight:

Yesterday my pastor presented to the congregation his view of "Holy Week" and up held a Wednesday view of the Crucifixion. He made a great case for his position, and even though I've herd of the theory I've never actually look into it in detail. I ran a search of my entire library for "Wednesday NEAR Jesus NEAR Crucifixion" and found next to nothing about this theory. Any help would be greatly appreciated! 

Your pastor is right on the mark, John. I can help you gather the evidence you are looking for to "settle" this issue, but this forum isn't the place for it, due to forum restrictions regarding not making comments on doctrine. As far as what you can find in Logos to help with your inquiry, the best source is the Bible itself, but you have to know what to look for and how to put the info in proper context. There is one resource that you can find in Logos that addresses your concern, and if you don't have it, you can pick it up for cheap. It is R.A. Torrey's book on Bible difficulties:

http://www.logos.com/product/1160/difficulties-in-the-bible-alleged-errors-and-contradictions

The specific section you want to read is Ch. 21, "Was Jesus Really 3 Days and 3 Nights in the Heart of the Earth?"

His conclusion is "yes", and he gives the Wednesday crucifixion as the solution to the supposed difficulty. I won't go into in-depth details about the laughable excuse known as "inclusive reckoning"...however, I will say this: those folks whose explanations "live" by inclusive reckoning must face the fact that their explanations also "die" by inclusive reckoning. Inclusive reckoning, as the idea is promulgated by those who appeal to it, ought to be classified with phrenology in terms of validity and legitimacy...i.e. sheer quackery.

This subject is tied to a large variety of other subjects that don't seem to be related at first blush, but in truth they are as intertwined as threads of cloth fabric. That is why it is a subject almost universally misunderstood. If you are interested, you can email me at mindfruit at live d o t c o m. There is prophecy that makes this subject very clear. Interesting and exciting stuff, if you can accept it.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 4:24 AM

David Paul:
this forum isn't the place for it, due to forum restrictions regarding not making comments on doctrine

David you probably should have stopped there.  Suggesting a resource to read is perfectly acceptable of course. But continuing on to state your beliefs of faith fired by words about other beliefs such as "laughable", and suggesting some "who misunderstannd" will die from their beliefs is offensive to users of this forum, whether they choose to believe what you attack or not.  Please stop and adhere to the guidelines.  Thanks and have a blessed Good Friday and Easter!

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 5:35 AM

Carey Pearson:

A similar usage is apparent from the narrative in 1 Samuel 30:12, where "he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights" is equated in v.13 with hayyôm še lōšāh ("three days ago")—which could only mean "day before yesterday." But if the Egyptian slave fell ill on the day before yesterday (with relationship to the day on which David found him), then he could not have remained without food or water for three entire twenty-four-hour days. We simply have to get used to slightly different ways of expressing time intervals. (Similarly the Feast of Pentecost was originally called the "Feast of Weeks" because it fell on the forty-ninth day after the offering of the wave sheaf on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Yet it was known actually as the Fiftieth Day—Pentēcostē in Greek.)

taken from New International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties

This is a textbook example of narrow-minded lack of thought. WHY does the first phrase, "he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights" EQUATE with "three days ago"???? What if the Egyptian in question had not eaten for a day prior to being abandoned by his master? There is nothing in this verbal configuration that requires these two phrase to mean the exact same thing. A classic case of "assuming".

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 887
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 6:00 AM

Well, I don't know about the day of the crucifixion, but from reading the Bible, I've concluded that Jesus rose from the dead on Tuesday. According to Matthew 16:21 (the same book in which he said he'd be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth), Jesus said he would be raised (egerthênai) "on (or "in" - dative case without a preposition) the third day." And since we know that Sunday is the first day, then "the third day" would be Tuesday. Since by Jewish reckoning a day began at sundown the day before, the resurrection thus occurred between sundown Monday night and sundown Tuesday night. And though at Mark 8:31 Jesus said that he'd rise again (anastênai) "after three days," he didn't say how long after three days it would be.

Now to go write my soon-to-be-bestselling-and-controversial-book, JESUS ROSE ON TUESDAY. Cool

I can't wait until I get to have my first debate with Bart Ehrman and Norman Geisler.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

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