It's time to start developing Logos 5

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Posts 259
Steve Clevenger | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 7:43 AM

I love Logos4 and it is fast on my i7comp.

Thanks Logos Team!Yes 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 7:43 AM

Richard Hendricks:

It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.

From my opinion's perspective it depends on what you mean by "speed." If we are talking about a search and the difference is 5 minutes to do a search vs. 10 seconds to do a search, yes, getting it down to 10 seconds is very important. However if you are talking about taking it from 10 seconds to .00001 seconds, no, it shouldn't be a priority. I can live very comfortably with a 10 second search. In fact, I would argue that it takes at least 10 minutes to chew over and digest a significant truth which would mean I'm the one slowing down the process, not the computer.

The same thing is true for performing a specific task. For instance if due to the slowness of menus it takes me 1 minute to right click menus and select a desired task. That is too long for me personally. After about 30 seconds I've forgotten what I was doing. Yes, that was a moment of truth :-). However, I can live with a menu taking 2-5 seconds to come up.

I've used some of the other programs. In fact I gave away a high end program when L4 came out because the person I gave it to would get far more use out of it then I would having a sizable L4 library. Don't get me wrong, the other program was great and could do some wonderful things, but I spent so much time adjusting settings and trying to remember which Icon did what that I spent my time doing a program rather then doing Bible Study. Personally I get more Bible study done in L4, be it with a slower interface, then I ever have anytime in the past.

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 7:49 AM

Bill Moore:
I am so deeply invested in Logos that there is no way to change to another Bible program.

I have often been unsure about this argument, Bill's point of view notwithstanding . The reason being is that I can remember being deeply invested in an IBM PS2, for around $10,000.00 back in 1989. Which I'm sure is now several layers down in a landfill somewhere...

Just a thought.

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 7:54 AM

Paul Golder:

Bill Moore:
I am so deeply invested in Logos that there is no way to change to another Bible program.

I have often been unsure about this argument, Bill's point of view notwithstanding . The reason being is that I can remember being deeply invested in an IBM PS2, for around $10,000.00 back in 1989. Which I'm sure is now several layers down in a landfill somewhere...

Just a thought.

 

Actually that's a good observation...no offense to Bill intended....it's the same argument as wasting food.....once food is paid for...no matter where it goes, in your belly or in the trash...you're out the same cash....(this is in response to the "don't waste food/clean your plate" argument...I WAS overweight and that was a big one for me....eat all of it because it cost me money rather than because i'm hungry)

 

You can also sell your Logos stuff (transfer?) to someone else, and no, I don't think it's incredibly cost efficient, but if you want to "get out" it IS one way to go and regain "most" of your outlay of cash....

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 8:11 AM

Richard Hendricks:
Logos 4 is too slow, too bloated, an relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded. It's still missing too many things which we loved about Logos 3. And it's still the slowest of the Bible software packages for searching the Bible.

I find it interesting to watch the responses to your post. Folks seem personally connected to Logos4 and hints of defensiveness come through in more than one post. I don't think that's a bad thing, on the contrary, Logos has a very loyal and dedicated user base. That's a good thing, and bodes well for Logos' future. I suppose I'm one of those who are loyal and begin to feel defensive when my precious program, that I have so much time and money invested in, seems to be 'attacked' in some way. But I hope my response below doesn't feel defensive to you.

Back to your observations. "Logos is too slow," you say. That is not my experience. What do you find slow as you use the program?

I'll pass over 'bloated' since I'm not a programmer and wouldn't know how to evaluate that statement.

You say that Logos " relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded." Are you saying that the concept of indexing technology is outmoded, or that the implementation Logos is using is outmoded? As to the first possibility, Libronix was not indexed as L4 is, and takes much longer to do complex searches. As Logos' resource list expands, indexing is a great way to do massive, complex, and relevant searches quickly. If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that the particular implementation of indexing is outmoded, did you know that Logos recently reworked it's indexing protocols to make them more robust and faster?

You say that L4 is " still missing too many things which we loved about Logos 3." Can you be more specific? I can only think of one or two that I miss, but don't miss them enough to even open L3 any more.

As to comparing with other Bible programs, I don't own any others, and haven't used any for many, many years. So I can't intelligently comment on that assessment.

Speed seems to be an issue for you, as the last sentence of your first paragraph and your concluding sentence suggest. Have you tried any of the strategies for improving speed found in the Wiki? For example, this page: http://wiki.logos.com/Speeding_up_Logos_4_responses or this page: http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Running_Slowly If so, can you tell us more about your system.

Speed has been an issue for some users and not for others -- sometimes with nearly identical hardware and software. So far, all attempts to narrow down the culprit(s) for these situations has proven futile. This can be quite frustrating, and I wish there was more we could do to help, if that's the case with you.

However, some have found some help on these forums from other users with similar problems who have found solutions that worked for them. If you can be more specific about your issues, we may be able to provide specific help to improve your experience with Logos4.

I went looking for issues you may have already brought up in these forums and, unless I'm mistaken, except for this post, you haven't posted since 2009 (is that correct)? Much of what you brought up earlier is now functional in L4 (though perhaps not in the same way as in L3), but if there are still some L3 tools that you don't find in L4, let us know which, and we can confirm that they aren't present, or are, but perhaps in a different form.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 8:26 AM

Steve Clevenger:

I love Logos4 and it is fast on my i7comp.

Thanks Logos Team!Yes 

Thank you, Steve, for a post to which I can wholeheartedly and with great enthusiasm "resonate"!

                   I bought an ACER desktop with 4Gig Ram and a good graphics card in December - less than 800 dollars for just the computer.        I can add more Ram if I want, but it doesn't need it.

Also, thank you, Bob Pritchett, for your post.

                   You are right-on as I think the youth would say.

                               I upgraded to an i7 so that my Logos could "fly"!             And it does!

Also, I have just seen i7 laptops here in Canada for less than $900 and i7 desktops for less than $700, both with 4G Ram so to use L4 with power and authority is not outrageously expensive.

Rom 14:17-19 - 

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding

 

 

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 6
prespsc | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 8:32 AM

I don't want to take this too far off the subject, but WPF/XAML is not going anywhere.  The improvements that Microsoft makes with the .NET framework will only be improved upon in the coming years and Logos should and will take advantage of this.   I include XAML with WPF because it really is what makes WPF so friendly to develop with.  If you now look at how reliant Microsoft UI development is on XAML (WPF, Silverlight, Windows 7 phone), you really start to see the big picture for their UI. 

 

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 8:34 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

As to comparing with other Bible programs, I don't own any others, and haven't used any for many, many years. So I can't intelligently comment on that assessment.

Speed seems to be an issue for you

Speed tends to really come into play when compared to other programs, I would tend to agree with Jim's thoughts, in that those who don't need all the abilities of Logos, and have a limited budget, may find their needs well met somewhere else.

Which seems disconcerting to me.

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 10:23 AM

I do not believe it would be right to mention names, but if you spend a little time doing some searching for bible study programs you will come up with some names that you can then do some research on.

And for those that think Logos is the only company that can do complicated searches think again, Logos does a great job, but many of you know about other language based programs that do complicated searches well, Logos was not the first.  Before making some of these statements  about other software, maybe it would be good to try them out.

The point I am making is that other companies have made some big progress in the last few years, and they have some real features to offer the average pastor or believer.  Some of them have great searching, note taking, internet interplay, ability to write books, the ablility to use pdf files along side of an open passage of scripture, some are easy to add pd books to them and many other features.

Logos is more geared towards some one wanting to do advance work. Both in language and research, I am working on my THD and it is great, but not for notes.

I would like to see logos pay more attention on the things the vast majority of believers would be using, however they are actually going the other way, and I am concerned about that, because I would love to see Logos as a program for everyone.

I run across 100's of people while teaching others how to use bible software that I simply can not recommend Logos to as their best choice of software.  This bothers me, but I have to learn to live with it.

I still do not use Logos 4 notes system to store my research in because other programs both free and paid do a better job and are far easier to use.  To me no matter what level of bible study you are at one of the main and most important features is note taking, both how easy it is to use while doing the research and how easy it is to access later.

After using some of the other systems, the thought has crossed my mind that wow that is simple but effective, I wonder why Logos doesn't do that.

And some of you don't seem to understand that some folks can not just run out and buy a new computer, and during that 1-3 years before they can, they want a bible study program that runs well on what they got, most people have never bought a simple library to study the bible with until they get their first bible study program so laying out any amount over 100.00 to get them started is a shock already, let alone getting them to buy a new computer.

It had been almost two year since I had bought the latest programs from some other companies, and I had thought Logos 4 had left them in the dust, but now I see things differently. Hey and some of these companies have the "cloud" and some are also working on programs for phones and tablets, the competition should do Logos good.

But beyond a doubt one of my biggest shocks was to see that one of the best language programs ever, was now expanding into commentaries and actually allowing another company to build producst to run on their program.  I didn't expect them to ever move out of their language for bible study only view, but they have.

It is a wild and crazy market out there, and Logos might not need to do a Logos 5 program yet, but they do need to clean up and speed up what they have.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Posts 689
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 11:10 AM

Just for the record, I've had NO trouble with L4 on a 4.6 year old Toshiba laptop with 2 GB of RAM and a 7200 RPM hard drive running XP Home with Service Pack 3. To be sure, I've struggled with my slow learning curve, but that's to be expected of a non-techie in his mid-seventies.

Sure, note taking is clunky. And I miss two things from L3: 1) single clicking a word in Hebrew and Greek texts to get into the lexica (missed very much); 2) aligned lines in Gospel synopses set to Greek texts (missed not as much).  But then there is a longer list than I can imagine of what, to me, are great improvements.

So, in my experience L4 performs as advertised and then some.

Easter blessings all around.

Posts 401
Sam West | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 11:26 AM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
It is a wild and crazy market out there, and Logos might not need to do a Logos 5 program yet, but they do need to clean up and speed up what they have.

Jim what am i missing? which features in Logos do you want more speed? over the past 20 years i have had 3 different bible programs including Logos and they have all served me well but logos is light years ahead of the other 2 in speed and features or any thing you wont to mention. i have had no problems what- so- ever with Logos speed of anything else. but maybe i cant see past my nose. i have over $2,000 invested in logos with no regrets. I am retired and have a lot of time on my hands. I study the word as a hobby and occasionally teach a class I will never give up my Logos program but, would be interested in something else to go along with logos if it is the right program.

PS I ask you earlier in this thread to name these programs so i can seriously look at them. I don't think anyone would mind including Logos if you done this.

God bless you brother and i would like to say in all seriousness you have a right to you opinion as anyone else and in no way am i trying to take  that away from you.

In Jesus Christ I love you

Posts 1814
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 11:49 AM

Sam West:
PS I ask you earlier in this thread to name these programs so i can seriously look at them. I don't think anyone would mind including Logos if you done this.

Hi Sam, Logos does dictate in the forum rules that we should not "promote" or link to other Bible software sites. By saying that program 'A' is a faster program or does "B' just as well is promoting the other program(s).

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

Posts 1534
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 12:33 PM

See the comments here, for example. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/5280.aspx?PageIndex=1

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 13413
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 12:52 PM

Rick Hypes:

Sam West:
PS I ask you earlier in this thread to name these programs so i can seriously look at them. I don't think anyone would mind including Logos if you done this.

Hi Sam, Logos does dictate in the forum rules that we should not "promote" or link to other Bible software sites. By saying that program 'A' is a faster program or does "B' just as well is promoting the other program(s).

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

But also http://community.logos.com/forums/t/20261.aspx (which happens to include a very convenient list of Logos' 'competitors'!)

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:00 PM

Jim,

I actually agree with much of what you said...the "other big bible software maker" B-works does some complex searches also....and lightening fast.

But I cannot think of another package that does ALL of the complex searches that Logos can do...possibly I'm just not informed.

 

IF it's a question of not needing to do anything more than simple "multiple word" searches or simple "proximity" searches...then don't be sad about recommending something less powerful (but evidently faster) to others....that's just the nature of preferring on product over another....you go with what you actually need.

I need to get to work...but not get to work at 140 mph......so a Ferrari is out for me....it doesn't fit my need....

 

However that old 98 Ford ranger of mine....does the trick. Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:02 PM

Rick Hypes:
Logos does dictate in the forum rules that we should not "promote" or link to other Bible software sites

"Is it okay to mention other products without advertising or linking to them? Yes!"

It seems that according to Dan Pritchett's post, that it should be OK to mention that WORDsearch is making resources for BibleWorks.

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 134
L.D. Young | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:04 PM

Hello Everyone,

I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.

I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.

We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.

In Christ,

Pastor Larry

Posts 13413
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:06 PM

L.D. Young:

I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.

I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.

We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.

Amen!

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:11 PM

L.D. Young:

Hello Everyone,

I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.

I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.

We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.

In Christ,

Pastor Larry

What fun is this? Just when everyone is getting all huffy and puffy, along comes pragmatism... Wink

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 134
L.D. Young | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:33 PM

Paul Golder:

L.D. Young:

Hello Everyone,

I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.

I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.

We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.

In Christ,

Pastor Larry

What fun is this? Just when everyone is getting all huffy and puffy, along comes pragmatism... Wink

 

Paul,

You're right. Sometimes I just can't help myself but I like a good debate as much as the next guy........ carry on!  Smile

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