Gospel Harmonies and Parallels

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 4:04 PM

George Somsel:
Are you saying that the same text should be repeated as much as 3 times (or even 4 times) in order to relate the others to the order of each gospel?

Of course! That's how Peisker's harmony is arranged. I didn't know until today -- well, yesterday now -- that there were harmonies that weren't arranged in that way. I assumed that was kind of included in the definition of a harmony. I fail to see the usefulness of something that doesn't follow the order of all three. How do you even find anything in it? Besides the fact that I object theologically to humans putting themselves above the Word of God and deciding that they know better than Him what order to put things in.

George Somsel:
I'm wondering why you object to the placement of Mark in the first position.

Because Matthew is first in the NT, obviously. How am I to remember which column is what if one author puts this book first and another puts that book first, according to his own fancy. We do have an established order. Follow it!

George Somsel:
it would appear that Logos has not reproduced the work in its entirety

Exactly. The question is why.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 4:34 PM

fgh:

Because Matthew is first in the NT, obviously. How am I to remember which column is what if one author puts this book first and another puts that book first, according to his own fancy. We do have an established order. Follow it!

fgh:
I object theologically to humans putting themselves above the Word of God and deciding that they know better than Him what order to put things in.

If you object to man deciding which book to put first, you should object to Matthew being put first since that is "man's order."  The first to be written was Mark.  Matthew and Luke made use of Mark together with a sayings source called Q (Quelle in German) which Luke then supplemented with some special tradition.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 4:38 PM

Why is everyone ignoring the obvious. Even the Syriac gave up on Tatian’s “Diatessaron” and moved to the 4 Gospels.Stick out tongue

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 4:51 PM

MJ. Smith:

Why is everyone ignoring the obvious. Even the Syriac gave up on Tatian’s “Diatessaron” and moved to the 4 Gospels.Stick out tongue

No one is ignoring the fact that there are four gospels.  Harmonies are to point out where one gospel differs from another.  it is not an attempt to put them in a blender and mush them together.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 6:15 PM

George Somsel:
No one is ignoring the fact that there are four gospels. 

Quite true - and I've created a bare bones harmony reading list. I just thought poor Tatian's feelings might get hurt if no one even mentioned himSad

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 6:29 PM

George Somsel:

MJ. Smith:

Why is everyone ignoring the obvious. Even the Syriac gave up on Tatian’s “Diatessaron” and moved to the 4 Gospels.Stick out tongue

 

No one is ignoring the fact that there are four gospels.  Harmonies are to point out where one gospel differs from another.  it is not an attempt to put them in a blender and mush them together.

Thanks to both of you loverly people!             *smile*

                I've never before read Tatian's "Diatessaron" until this evening.  Thanks to you, MJ, for mentioning it.  And!             Thanks to you, George, for all the work you did to produce that note file "Alpha Church Fathers."  Your hard work to link all those old guys made it possible for me to almost instantly open it up for study.

                                           Also, thank God for Logos 4!                                         *smile*

Now, last thing in my day am going to look at the Lutheran Service Book Three Year Lectionary and study once more the Scriptures that will be read in Divine Service tomorrow morning.                                          

                                                  Phil 4:8-9

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 106
Rob Suggs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 6:30 PM

fgh, I would have to agree with George that questions of order, such as Matthew being placed before Mark, are not inspired in the way that the Word itself is inspired, any more than verse and chapter divisions are inspired. These are things that men have added. It makes sense to me to work outward from Mark, knowing that the gospel narratives are often arranged thematically rather than strictly chronologically. Matthew was placed first in the canon because it was thought, early on, to have been written first, and that Mark was a kind of abridgement of it. Only in the last couple of centuries did scholars come to a consensus that in all probability, Mark preceded the others--though there is still just a bit of disagreement on that, and always will be. John A. T. Robinson, I believe, was convinced John came first. And there are actually a few valid arguments for that. In the end, God gives us Scripture on a need-to-know basis. I would love, for example, to know about Jesus' teens and twenties. But I believe the Spirit of God inspired the four evangelists to write all that we need to know of the life and work of Christ. I used to avoid Mark, because it seemed so much less rich to me than Matthew, with its weath of parables and teaching, Luke, with its warmth and humanity, and John, with its awe-inspiring insight. But this time I have to say I'm loving my study of Mark, with its directness, its fast face, and the thought that these were surely the memories of Simon Peter himself. It's so clear in many passages,and that sends chills down my spine. When I finish, I will begin a study of Peter's epistles.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2011 6:35 PM

Beautiful post, Rob!

                         Thanks!

Peace!                                                                          *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 5 2011 1:01 PM

George Somsel:
If you object to man deciding which book to put first, you should object to Matthew being put first since that is "man's order." 

Can't you please read what I say instead of ascribing to me all sorts of things I haven't said? All I've said, several times now, is that I get confused when people suddenly print the columns in another order than I've been used to all my life. If I took a quick look in a harmony like that I would go away with the impression that Matthew used 'this' word and Mark used 'that', when, in fact, it is Mark that uses 'this' word and Matthew that uses 'that'. It has nothing to do with chronology or theology or "man's order", only with using a layout that helps my brain get things right, and not one that 'helps' my brain get things wrong. 

Furthermore, you are pulling quotes totally out of context! That second quote had nothing whatsoever to do with the order between the columns. It had to do with the order within the columns. When someone decides on his own that Mark's order is correct and that Matthew and Luke should be rearranged according to Mark's order, he is putting himself above the Word of God. Plus, from a scholarly perspective, he's producing an incredibly much less useful resource.

 

MJ. Smith:

Why is everyone ignoring the obvious. Even the Syriac gave up on Tatian’s “Diatessaron” and moved to the 4 Gospels. Stick out tongue

Who is "everyone"? The Diatessaron has been on my mind ever since I opened all my Logos harmonies in preparation for my first post, and found, with shock, that one of them was indeed a "harmony", in all senses of the word. I didn't know that kind of thing was still produced. I had naively assumed they went out of fashion with ... yes ... the Diatessaron. I never liked the English word 'harmony' -- only learnt it last autumn; we use 'synops' -- but after that find I rather hate it. 'Harmony' makes it sound like the purpose is to harmonize, when the whole rationale for using a book like Peisker's synopsis is to find the differences.

And my stubborn insistence on the ability to follow all 3 Synoptics in order, of course also stems from the same dislike of any and all attempt at harmonizing. 

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 5 2011 2:11 PM

fgh:
Who is "everyone"?

I think it is the "everyone" of my youth - "but, Mom, everyone get to ..." or perhaps the "they" of my later years "well, they say that ..."Wink

fgh:
I never liked the English word 'harmony'

You are correct on this. I much prefer the term "parallels"

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 8 2011 2:34 PM

MJ. Smith:
You are correct on this. I much prefer the term "parallels"

I studied some dictionaries the other days, and decided I'll call them "Gospel parallels" or "synopses" in the future, and reserve the word "harmony" for the Diatessaron kind.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Nelson R. Pardee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 23 2014 7:30 PM

I would like the passage guide to list "harmonies" first that I have prioritized. However, it seems to have a mind of its own. Any suggestions?.(This is an old thread but closest to my question.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 12:03 AM

I've thought that it did. Can you provide an example of your priorities and results?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Nelson R. Pardee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 8:48 AM

Sure. Here's my priorities list:

And here's the result from a passage lis (I typed the results, then show the screen shot)t:
  -Aland "Synopsis" is first (Ihave it prioritized second)
  - Burton, Goodspeed, & Johnson is second (I don't even have this in my priorities)
  - Burton is third (not in my priorities)
  - Sharman is fourth (not in my list)
  - Eusebian Canons fifth (not in my list)
  - Robertson
  - Jackson

Cox, my first choice, isn't even listed.

Thanks so much for any help.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 1:21 PM

If a resource doesn't have an entry it will not show. Items after the end of your priority list will show in an order of Logos making. I think that explains the results but without knowing the reference entered I can't prove it. You can test it by adding additional resources to your priority list or by selecting a passage that you find in the "missing" resource and verifying that it shows up in the correct location.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Nelson R. Pardee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 4:57 PM

The resource does have an entry, or at least has a section for the passage. Or put another way, it does have an entry, or it has no entries at all! I think. And that doesn't explain why Aland is second, when it is clearly the highest ranked resouce in my priority list.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 6:13 PM

I reordered and finished my priorities and the results adjusted appropriately. I'm still checking why some Gospel parallels don't show.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 6:35 PM

See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/87127/611593.aspx#611593

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 37
Nelson R. Pardee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 6:59 PM

M.J., that's pretty impressive help. Thank you so very much. BTW, your bug submission made me see why I might want to retitle some resources. A lot of work, but I can see why.

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Jeff Jackson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 24 2014 7:50 PM

In retrospect, it probably would have been better if I had kept the columns in canonical order.  They're in the order of whose order I followed first.  That is, all of Mark is listed in order.  Then Luke is added to the mix, following Mark's order.  Then Matthew added following Mark's order for Mark's text, and Luke's order for "Q".

However, I also replicated parallels when that otherwise chopped up Luke or Matthew material so that sections of Matthew and Luke could be studied in text order without having to jump all over the place.  So for example, you'll find Mt 5-7 all together, and you'll find Lk 6:20-49 text all together, each replicating the parallels in the other.

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