Banned? Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection Censorship?
You know when someone tells me I can't read something, it makes me want to read it all the more. Such is the case with the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud about to be released from Pre-Pub soon.
"Listen carefully to these words of a zealous German:
What then shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we cannot tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage … Let me give you my honest advice.
First, their synagogues or Churches should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honour of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians …
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetuate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For the same reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more …
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges must be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts, since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like …
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping. For this reason, as said before, everything that they possess they stole and robbed from us through their usury, for they have no other means of support … Such evilly acquired money is cursed, unless, with God’s blessing, it is put to some good and necessary use …
If however we are afraid that they might harm us personally … then let us apply the same cleverness as the other nations, such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., and settle with them for that which they have extorted usuriously from us, and after having divided it up fairly let us drive them out of the country for all time. For, as has been said, God’s rage is so great against them that they only become worse and worse through mild mercy, and not much better through severe mercy. Therefore away with them …
Horrifying, frightening, enlightening! “At his trial in Nuremberg after the Second World War, Julius Streicher, the notorious Nazi propagandist, editor of the scurrilous antisemitic weekly, Der Sturmer, argued that if he should be standing there arraigned on such charges” another famous German should have also been there with him. The author of this plan was not his boss, Adolf Hitler. The author of those despicable words of hatred toward Jews was not even penned by a German Nazi; they were from our revered German hero of the faith, Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation."
Weiss, R. A. (1995). Does Jacob's trouble wear a cross? : The ancient legacy of Christian anti-semitism. Dyer, IN: Excellence in Christian Books. "
Order it now to find out what is so dangerous we need to be protected from it! 
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Comments
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Another excerpt from Does Jacob's Trouble Wear a Cross ($12.95 in Logos) --
"Luther was not the first Christian leader to maliciously call for the desolation of sacred Jewish writings. Rulers of the Christian Church in various centuries sought to destroy the Talmud.This anti-talmudic campaign and the various decrees of the popes reached their height when … Pope Gregory IX ordered the burning of copies of the Talmud in Paris in 1240. Similar decrees were issued several times in the course of the thirteenth century, on one occasion by Pope Clement IV in 1264, and thousands of copies were consigned to the flames. The Jews regarded the destruction of the Talmud as an almost unparalleled national catastrophe.
In 1509 Johannes Pfefferkorn worked to convince the guides of the church “to burn the Talmud in all countries under the rule of Charles V.” Fortunately this effort was unsuccessful. Unfortunately, by 1553 Pope Julius III successfully had tens of thousands of copies of the sacred Talmud burned. In other situations, when church leaders could not get support to burn the Talmud, they worked to censor it."
Weiss, R. A. (1995). Does Jacob's trouble wear a cross? : The ancient legacy of Christian anti-semitism. Dyer, IN: Excellence in Christian Books.
I'm getting curious to see what censorship of the Talmud is necessary. [6]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Luther was a scary dude.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Yeah, if you burn a copy of the Talmud, Al Kosher will launch a terrorist attack against your country.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Do you mean Al-Qosher? [;)]
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
Luther was a scary dude.
Hal Lindsey apologized for Luther so it is all ok now. [:)]
I am still trying to understand what is in the Talmud that strikes fear in the heart of everyone who reads it.
- Muhammad made a great effort in 627 at Medina to keep us from reading it.
- The Crusaders made several great efforts.
- Iranian President Ahmadinejad echoed similar sentiments.
- Even the anarchist youth culture are afraid. And they have never read it. [;)]
Get your order in before it ships and save hundreds of dollars.
Get it before Guy Montag gets it first!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Add the late Sephardic Rabbi Kaduri to the list of people who hope you don't get The Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud from Logos this month.
"As a lifelong student and teacher of kabbalah, Kaduri rejected a meeting requested by pop superstar Madonna, who dabbled in the ancient art of Jewish mysticism. He reportedly said at the time: "It is forbidden to teach a non-Jew kabbalah, not even Talmud, not even simple Torah."
Read more: "Messiah mystery follows death of mystical rabbi" here.
Maybe somebody in Logos Sales should contact Madonna and offer her the Pre-Pub.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
It is forbidden to teach a non-Jew kabbalah
Not surprising - esoteric traditions usually have strict prerequisites. And much of popular Kabbalah has little to do with the rich tradition. I've read the commentary on Genesis by the rabbi who did teach Madonna. I wouldn't give it a recommendation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
Read more: "Messiah mystery follows death of mystical rabbi" here
Pretty interesting story. I wonder if there's any truth to any of it? As in, was the note authentic, who did he meet in 2003, and what were those drawings about in his writings?
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Matthew C Jones said:
You know when someone tells me I can't read something, it makes me want to read it all the more.
I'm that way too! I heard people saying that Rob Bell was a heretic and that his Love Wins was a terrible misleading book, so I went out and bought it and read it. And you know what? I liked it and didn't find anything particularly objectionable in it. Found it rather winsome in fact, which is so needed. Speculative? -- yes in some ways. Unbiblical? -- no. I prefer to make my own decisions about books rather than paying attention to the trashing of them by critics who haven't even read them. [:)]
Here, by the way, are some lists of books that have been banned, censored, or challenged by religious and other groups; many of these are classics:
- Banned and/or Challenged Books from the Radcliffe Publishing Course Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century
- Banned Books Online (from The Online Books Page)
- Banned Books & Authors
- List of Books Banned by Governments
- Index Librorum Prohibitorum (Index of Prohibited Books of the Catholic Church)
- Heresy and Error: The Ecclesiastical Censorship of Books 1400-1800 (a special exhibition at the Bridwell Library, SMU Perkins School of Theology)
That's not to say that every book that has ever been banned by someone is worth reading. But it's worth finding out why it was banned and by whom, and perhaps checking it out for oneself if there are reasons for which that book has been lauded by others and has endured in spite of having been opposed.
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Rosie Perera said:
and perhaps checking it out for oneself if there are reasons for which that book has been lauded by others and has endured in spite of having been opposed.
That is one test I use to gauge a book's "worthiness" to read. If millions of people are influenced by a book, no matter how foolish or unimportant it is to me personally, I am behooved to consider it. Sooner or later I will have to interact with someone who does esteem the book. That will have an effect on me.
I once had a Muslim co-worker (dare I call him "friend?") who knew more about the Bible than most Christians. He told me some Muslims believe the Q'uran must be read in Arabic and all foreign translations are forbidden. He had no problem quoting references to me from the English translation.
I also know a few who insist on reading the Bible in English only and consider it sinful even talking about Hebrew or Greek. It would be difficult to interest them in the Babylonian & Jerusalem Talmud, even in English.
~ somewhat related resource available in Logos: : Seven Men Who Rule the World from the Grave
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
The author of those despicable words of hatred toward Jews was not even penned by a German Nazi; they were from our revered German hero of the faith, Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation."
The Talmudic literature may contain things that should not be listened to, but what I am amazed by is Luther's treatment of the Jews. I wonder if he spoke even this ill of the pope. This feeling was vented before by Jesus' disciples against the Samaritans whom Jesus reached out to:
Luke 9:54–56 (NASB95)"When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”] And they went on to another village."
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Ryan Schatz said:
The Talmudic literature may contain things that should not be listened to,
I agree.
What better way to glean useful information from the Talmud without being corrupted by the dangerous evil within, than to use Logos 4 to search and return what we seek to know and illuminate under the spotlight of true scripture? [:D]
I will never actually read all of my Logos resources before I die. But I am able to make use of the most scholarly, obscure, or specialized material simply by having it in my library. Were it only available in hardback, I would never read any of the Talmud, nor be able to search for whatever vignettes are hidden therein.
It comforts me to know the disciples and Luther were still used for the glory of God in spite of their failures. I pray that I may be used in some small way for the same..
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ryan Schatz said:
I wonder if he spoke even this ill of the pope.
Yes, And so did most of the founders of the protestant movement.
""This business shows overwhelmingly that he is the true end-times Antichrist, who has raised himself over and set himself against Christ, because the pope will not let Christians be saved without his authority"" Martin Luther's Basic Theological Writings found in "The Smalcald Articles"
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Ryan Schatz said:
I wonder if he spoke even this ill of the pope.
That question may be addressed in Erasmus and Luther: Their Attitude to Toleration, one of the books in The Desiderius Erasmus Collection (19 vols.)
Place your bid on this Community Pricing collection and help it get into print. Erasmus was just about as fascinating as Luther.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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David Ames said:Ryan Schatz said:
I wonder if he spoke even this ill of the pope.
Yes, And so did most of the founders of the protestant movement.
""This business shows overwhelmingly that he is the true end-times Antichrist, who has raised himself over and set himself against Christ, because the pope will not let Christians be saved without his authority"" Martin Luther's Basic Theological Writings found in "The Smalcald Articles"
Hmm... identifying the Pope as the Antichrist was merely stating what the Pope says of himself by putting himself in the place of Christ and taking His authority. By calling himself the 'Vicar Christi', THE one "in place of" Christ, the Pope has put himself in the place of the Holy Spirit who was the helper to come, the true Vicar Christi, when Jesus physically left the earth. Unless he means nothing more than identifying himself as part of the body of Christ of which all who exercise faith are equal representatives, then he has gone too far.
However, what Luther said about the Jews was more than stating any facts; he declared them damned as a whole race, and wanted their literature and places of worship burned, aligning his sentiment with that of Hitler and extremist Muslims. This is far worse than what he said of the Pope above. Luther's attitude towards the Jews is unchristian and, I might say, if he persisted in such attitude, he should have been disfellowshipped and treated as an unbeliever!
Matthew C Jones said:It comforts me to know the disciples and Luther were still used for the glory of God in spite of their failures. I pray that I may be used in some small way for the same..
I'm not interested in just being used by God. Satan is used by God to accomplish His purposes too! If Luther persisted in this attitude toward a race of people, then despite all the good he did, he was not a Christian!
Matthew C Jones said:Ryan Schatz said:I wonder if he spoke even this ill of the pope.
That question may be addressed in Erasmus and Luther: Their Attitude to Toleration, one of the books in The Desiderius Erasmus Collection (19 vols.)
Place your bid on this Community Pricing collection and help it get into print. Erasmus was just about as fascinating as Luther.
I already had a bid in for that collection. Everyone, if they have even the smallest interest, should place the highest bid for all the collections available. This way we would all get the best possible pricing and no one is committed until the work is actually produced which may not be for many months. By that time, when you think you might actually want the work, it would be too late to place a bid as you would not be locked in at the community pricing.
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Ryan Schatz said:
Hmm... However, what Luther said about the Jews was more than stating any facts;
Everyone, if they have even the smallest interest, should place the highest bid for all the collections available.
Ok on the first point [pope / Jews]
Problem with early bidders biding at highest bid - they scare all others away - see "Classic Commentaries and Studies on Revelation" at $160 and going no where.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Erasmus was just about as fascinating as Luther.
Some would claim Eramus laid the groundwork for tolerance. From wikipedia:
"Certain works of Erasmus laid a foundation for religious toleration. For example, in De libero arbitrio,
opposing certain views of Martin Luther, Erasmus noted that religious
disputants should be temperate in their language, "because in this way
the truth, which is often lost amidst too much wrangling may be more
surely perceived." Gary Remer writes, "Like Cicero, Erasmus concludes that truth is furthered by a more harmonious relationship between interlocutors."
Although Erasmus did not oppose the punishment of heretics, in
individual cases he generally argued for moderation and against the
death penalty. He wrote, "It is better to cure a sick man than to kill
him.""Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ryan Schatz said:
Hmm... identifying the Pope as the Antichrist was merely stating what the Pope says of himself by putting himself in the place of Christ and taking His authority. By calling himself the 'Vicar Christi', THE one "in place of" Christ, the Pope has put himself in the place of the Holy Spirit who was the helper to come, the true Vicar Christi, when Jesus physically left the earth. Unless he means nothing more than identifying himself as part of the body of Christ of which all who exercise faith are equal representatives, then he has gone too far.
Hmmm ... sounds to me like theological discussions which are to be discouraged ... and sounds suspiciously like an incomplete understanding of what "in the place of" means ... as it is used to refer to all priests celebrating Mass among other things. The liturgical readers are sometimes said to stand "in the place of the prophets" etc. All in all, when taken outside of its context it is easily misunderstood and/or misrepresented. That's why we stay away from theological discussions.
Ryan Schatz said:Everyone, if they have even the smallest interest, should place the highest bid for all the collections available. This way we would all get the best possible pricing and no one is committed until the work is actually produced which may not be for many months.
I know that I am in the minority here but I am not comfortable giving Logos the impression that I am committed when I doubt that I am. It adversely affects the data on which they base their decisions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Some would claim Eramus laid the groundwork for tolerance. From wikipedia:
"Erasmus noted that religious disputants should be temperate in their language, "because in this way the truth, which is often lost amidst too much wrangling may be more surely perceived." Gary Remer writes, "Like Cicero, Erasmus concludes that truth is furthered by a more harmonious relationship between interlocutors." Although Erasmus did not oppose the punishment of heretics, in individual cases he generally argued for moderation and against the death penalty. He wrote, "It is better to cure a sick man than to kill him.""
Until you quoted the part on the 'death penalty' I thought you were talking about us on the Logos Forum [:)]
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Returning to the J/B Talmud, I very much doubt Albert (Barnes) would ever dream that there would be a time in which his commentary was just one ahead of the Talmud on the Logos pre-pub Bestselling listing. Of course, Albert might have never dreamed he'd still be well regarded vs some ancient rabbis. We are talking 3 days away.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
Hmmm ... sounds to me like theological discussions which are to be discouraged ... and sounds suspiciously like an incomplete understanding of what "in the place of" means ... as it is used to refer to all priests celebrating Mass among other things. The liturgical readers are sometimes said to stand "in the place of the prophets" etc. All in all, when taken outside of its context it is easily misunderstood and/or misrepresented. That's why we stay away from theological discussions.
Since you responded with a theological answer, could you please clarify for me as perhaps I misunderstand - is the Pope of the Roman Catholic church the unique Vicor of Christ, or are there multiple Vicors of Christ? If the latter, are they only the Vicor of Christ when performing the Mass or reading liturgy? Thanks for helping me understand.
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To avoid inappropriate use of the forums, let me refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church online since it is not in Logos:
From the index of the Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/v.shtml
bishop as the vicar of Christ 894, 1560
conscience, the "aboriginal Vicar of Christ" 1778
Supreme Pontiff as vicar of Christ 882http://www.archdiocesesantafe.org/Offices/Worship/GIRM/English/04TheFour-foldPresence.pdf on the 4-fold Presence should complete the answer.
Note a vicar never works under their own authority, they are always representing the authority of someone above themselves. To be the vicar of Christ means to not exercise personal power but to acts on behalf on/ as a representative of someone above you. "Not I but Christ in me"
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Naw, I don't think MJ will be able to clarify that to your satisfaction. The Talmud never addressed the subjectRyan Schatz said:Since you responded with a theological answer, could you please clarify
And Calvin put to death a heretic.Ryan Schatz said:However, what Luther said about the Jews was more than stating any facts; he declared them damned as a whole race
Calvin and Servetus: The Reformer's Share in the Trial of Michael Servetus, by W. K. Tweedie
Neither Calvin nor Luther had to earn their salvation by good works. And neither claimed to.Ryan Schatz said:If Luther persisted in this attitude toward a race of people, then despite all the good he did, he was not a Christian!
"used in some small way for the same" (same = for the glory of God)
Job 13:15 2 Timothy 2:20Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Naw, I don't think MJ will be able to clarify that to your satisfaction.
Gimme credit ... I answered the specific questions very clearly. You might answer that I wouldn't be able to answer the broader question that was not asked ... but the conscience as the "aboriginal conscience" entry in the index alone ought to cause a recalibration of the topic.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Gimme credit ...
I will let Ryan tell you whether or not he is satisfied with your answer. I did say "to (his) satisfaction." [:D]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJ. Smith said:
To avoid inappropriate use of the forums, let me refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church online since it is not in Logos:
From the index of the Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/v.shtml
bishop as the vicar of Christ 894, 1560
conscience, the "aboriginal Vicar of Christ" 1778
Supreme Pontiff as vicar of Christ 882http://www.archdiocesesantafe.org/Offices/Worship/GIRM/English/04TheFour-foldPresence.pdf on the 4-fold Presence should complete the answer.
Note a vicar never works under their own authority, they are always representing the authority of someone above themselves. To be the vicar of Christ means to not exercise personal power but to acts on behalf on/ as a representative of someone above you. "Not I but Christ in me"
I realize this is off topic, so this will be my last post on the subject. MJS, I'm thankful that you clarified what you meant by your response. However, you present a very malleable definition of Vicar (sorry, I was misspelling it earlier). You use it almost to show that any representation of Christ as it in the scriptures, kind and humble acts, the conscience or any in leadership or performing Mass or being Christlike are all vicars of Christ. If so, that is not how I understand the Pope's position and authority, so perhaps the word is misleading. Maybe the following description from Vatican II will highlight my point more clearly:
"But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head." (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)
Does anyone else in the Roman Catholic church have full, supreme and universal power over the Church? Is there not only one who has this? My understanding was that the Pope is the visible presence of Christ on the earth so that we can hear him direct and command us as Jesus since Jesus is physically absent. But Jesus is not here to dispute anything that the Pope says or does like the Pope can dispute something that a cardinal or bishop does, so his authority is unique in that sense. In this way he is taking the place of Christ.
Ok, I'll stop this theological rabbit trail.
Anyways, I'm looking forward to having the Talmudic literature to be able to view the context of the huge number of references that many items in my library make to the Talmud.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Horrifying, frightening, enlightening! “At his trial in Nuremberg after the Second World War, Julius Streicher, the notorious Nazi propagandist, editor of the scurrilous antisemitic weekly, Der Sturmer, argued that if he should be standing there arraigned on such charges” another famous German should have also been there with him. The author of this plan was not his boss, Adolf Hitler. The author of those despicable words of hatred toward Jews was not even penned by a German Nazi; they were from our revered German hero of the faith, Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation."
Oh, my ... I realized that Luther had said some scurrilous things regarding the Jews, but I didn't realize that he said anything quite THIS bad !
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ryan Schatz said:
Ok, I'll stop this theological rabbit trail.
Have you read Orwell's Animal Farm? The animals are equal but some are more equal than others? Apply the principle to the 5 patriarchs and you're starting on the right mindset to interpret the documents. There is a reason I headed you to official texts.
Ryan Schatz said:You use it almost to show that any representation of Christ as it in the scriptures, kind and humble acts, the conscience or any in leadership or performing Mass or being Christlike are all vicars of Christ.
Correct ... all are equal but some are more equal than others.[:D]
Like all Eastern, Orthodox, Anglican and Catholic theologies, you have to understand the mindset of the Liturgy before you can understand how terms are used. From wikipedia: "Lex orandi, lex credendi (Latin loosely translatable as "the law of prayer is the law of belief")" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_orandi,_lex_credendi
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
And Calvin put to death a heretic.Ryan Schatz said:However, what Luther said about the Jews was more than stating any facts; he declared them damned as a whole race
Calvin and Servetus: The Reformer's Share in the Trial of Michael Servetus, by W. K. TweedieThose were rather harsh times. Catholics killed Protestants and Jews (Spain), Protestants killed Catholics, Lutherans killed Mennonites, and everyone would have killed Servetus no matter where he went -- it simply happened in Geneva. Thankfully we don't treat those of other religious views in that way today -- unless you happen to be in a Muslim country.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Matthew C Jones said:
And Calvin put to death a heretic.Ryan Schatz said:However, what Luther said about the Jews was more than stating any facts; he declared them damned as a whole race
Calvin and Servetus: The Reformer's Share in the Trial of Michael Servetus, by W. K. TweedieThose were rather harsh times. Catholics killed Protestants and Jews (Spain), Protestants killed Catholics, Lutherans killed Mennonites, and everyone would have killed Servetus no matter where he went -- it simply happened in Geneva. Thankfully we don't treat those of other religious views in that way today -- unless you happen to be in a Muslim country.
You are exactly right George. But still, I stopped to quote Martin Luther in my sermons for a number of years, after I read his position on Jews for the first time. The problem is there are some sobering quotes from some Church Fathers also. Coming to Yad Vashem Museum in Israel is a very important experience for all Christian ministers who look lightly on the problem of Christian antisemitism.
Bohuslav
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George Somsel said:
Thankfully we don't treat those of other religious views in that way today -- unless you happen to be in a Muslim country.
George Somsel said:and everyone would have killed Servetus no matter where he went
I once lived in a predominantly Baptist city that unwittingly elected a Unitarian Mayor. When they found out they wanted to burn him at the stake.
George Somsel said:unless you happen to be in a Muslim country
It happened this week in Egypt to the Coptic churches.
--- reminds me: why don't\t we have Foxe's Book of Martyrs in :Logos?
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Hi Matthew
Matthew C Jones said:--- reminds me: why don't\t we have Foxe's Book of Martyrs in :Logos?
It is available from a partner - see http://community.logos.com/forums/p/27431/202587.aspx for the discussion
Enjoy!
Graham
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MJ. Smith said:Ryan Schatz said:
Everyone, if they have even the smallest interest, should place the highest bid for all the collections available. This way we would all get the best possible pricing and no one is committed until the work is actually produced which may not be for many months.
I know that I am in the minority here but I am not comfortable giving Logos the impression that I am committed when I doubt that I am. It adversely affects the data on which they base their decisions.
Agreed. I have this strange, out-dated, philosophy that when I commit myself to something, I should keep my word. I am old enough to remember when "My word is my bond" actually meant something.
I wonder what "Let you yes be yes and your no no" mean. [^o)]
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Jack Caviness said:MJ. Smith said:Ryan Schatz said:
Everyone, if they have even the smallest interest, should place the highest bid for all the collections available. This way we would all get the best possible pricing and no one is committed until the work is actually produced which may not be for many months.
I know that I am in the minority here but I am not comfortable giving Logos the impression that I am committed when I doubt that I am. It adversely affects the data on which they base their decisions.
Agreed. I have this strange, out-dated, philosophy that when I commit myself to something, I should keep my word. I am old enough to remember when "My word is my bond" actually meant something.
I wonder what "Let you yes be yes and your no no" mean.
Jack! *smile*
Peace to you! And Always Joy in the Lord!
Both you and MJ speak for me also in this area. A matter of integrety!
Not good -- not good at all! -- to try to manipulate Logos!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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MJ. Smith said:
Agreed. I have this strange, out-dated, philosophy that when I commit myself to something, I should keep my word. I am old enough to remember when "My word is my bond" actually meant something.
I wonder what "Let you yes be yes and your no no" mean.
Ok, there is no moral requirement on what level you bid nor has Logos committed you to anything if you bid. If it doesn't make you comfortable to bid if you suspect you won't be able to afford the resource at any price or your interest is so small that even if it went for $3 you wouldn't touch it, then by all means, don't bid.
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Ryan Schatz said:
If it doesn't make you comfortable to bid if you suspect you won't be able to afford the resource at any price or your interest is so small that even if it went for $3 you wouldn't touch it, then by all means, don't bid.
I can live with that. My real problem is I want almost everything Logos comes up with! Can someone help me explain to my wife why I need the Latin portion of Summa Theologica or the Greek portion of the Apostolic Fathers or the critical apparatus to the Coptic version of the Minor Prophets?
Then there are times when you realize a product should be published even when you personally won't need it. Rosie has said she places some orders to help get a resource into production. I believe she actually follows through and buys the resource. This is not something everyone can do but I think it is worthy of consideration. Czech Bible: 21st Century Edition is in Pre-Pub and very much requested. If we view a Pre-Pub purchase as a gift to Christians "over there" it becomes a self-less gift. When I was a little kid I gave money to the Gideons to place Bibles in hotels. I placed my order for the Czech Bible for the same reason.
Matthew C Jones said:Maintaining integrity of the Pre-Pub plan. Several people have warned how this could undermine the stated purpose & functionality of the Pre-Pub program. Bob Pritchett points out the program is designed to aid Logos in deciding which resources to pursue first. If everyone adds everything to their lists and leaves them there, the Logos development team will have a harder time knowing what titles are sure sales and what titles are likely to cave right before shipping. My suggested plan of action here will have you purge your Pre-Pub list of all titles you are not prepared to pay for on ship date
If you want a title, place the order and lock it in. Logos has seen me cancel orders at the last minute, not because I don't want them, but because I could not afford them at the moment they are shipping. There have also been times when a shipping delay enabled me to afford resources I really wanted but would not have been in a position to buy had it shipped "on schedule." So the bottom line to me is: Only order what I really want to buy and do my best to follow through. Logos in turn does their best to publish resources users want. Sometimes Logos is unable to follow through, sometimes it is I who falter.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Can someone help me explain to my wife why I need the Latin portion of Summa Theologica or the Greek portion of the Apostolic Fathers or the Coptic version of the Minor Prophets?
It isn't the Coptic version of the Minor Prophets. What it is is a CRITICAL APPARATUS to the Coptic versions of the Minor Prophets.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Matthew C Jones said:
Can someone help me explain to my wife why I need the Latin portion of Summa Theologica or the Greek portion of the Apostolic Fathers or the Coptic version of the Minor Prophets?
It isn't the Coptic version of the Minor Prophets. What it is is a CRITICAL APPARATUS to the Coptic versions of the Minor Prophets.
[:#] Sshh! You are helping my wife's argument. How am I ever gonna learn the difference if all I get are interlinears?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Then there are times when you realize a product should be published even when you personally won't need it. Rosie has said she places some orders to help get a resource into production. I believe she actually follows through and buys the resource. This is not something everyone can do but I think it is worthy of consideration. Czech Bible: 21st Century Edition is in Pre-Pub and very much requested. If we view a Pre-Pub purchase as a gift to Christians "over there" it becomes a self-less gift. When I was a little kid I gave money to the Gideons to place Bibles in hotels. I placed my order for the Czech Bible for the same reason.
Thank you Matthew. I really appreciate your help. [Y]
By the way, if you need any Czech language lessons, let me know. But either way, I owe you a good Czech beer if we meet somewhere here in Europe [:)] [B]
P.S. Revised Chinese Union Version would benefit from some help also. I think Non-English Bibles should be offered in some different system than pre-pub. But that's off-topic here.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:Matthew C Jones said:
Then there are times when you realize a product should be published even when you personally won't need it. Rosie has said she places some orders to help get a resource into production. I believe she actually follows through and buys the resource. This is not something everyone can do but I think it is worthy of consideration. Czech Bible: 21st Century Edition is in Pre-Pub and very much requested. If we view a Pre-Pub purchase as a gift to Christians "over there" it becomes a self-less gift. When I was a little kid I gave money to the Gideons to place Bibles in hotels. I placed my order for the Czech Bible for the same reason.
Thank you Matthew. I really appreciate your help.
By the way, if you need any Czech language lessons, let me know. But either way, I owe you a good Czech beer if we meet somewhere here in Europe
P.S. Revised Chinese Union Version would benefit from some help also. I think Non-English Bibles should be offered in some different system than pre-pub. But that's off-topic here.
OK, I've just placed an order for both the Czech bible and the Chinese one in pre-pub.
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Rosie Perera said:
OK, I've just placed an order for both the Czech bible and the Chinese one in pre-pub.
Thank you Rosie. [Y] You will see you will love that translation. [:D]
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:Rosie Perera said:
OK, I've just placed an order for both the Czech bible and the Chinese one in pre-pub.
Thank you Rosie.
You will see you will love that translation. 
I will not be able to read a word of it, but I will enjoy knowing that I've helped you and others get it. Seriously, Czech is one language that I don't even know one word of. I know at least one word or sentence in about 20 languages (sometimes not a very useful one: for example I know the Finnish word for "elevator"; I know the Old Icelandic words for "woman" and "brownish-grey with a stripe down the back" -- yes, there's a single word for all that; in Swedish I know how to say "What weather we're having!"; and in Cantonese I can say, but probably without correct pronunciation, "Is mother scolding the horse?"). You'll need to teach me an easy memorable word or phrase in Czech to add to my collection. Preferably a greeting, or perhaps something biblical.
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Rosie Perera said:
You'll need to teach me an easy memorable word or phrase in Czech to add to my collection. Preferably a greeting, or perhaps something biblical.
When you see my name you know 2 words already. "Bohu" = to God, and "slav" (actually "sláva") = glory. [:)]
You also know another Czech word "Robot". It comes from Czech (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot#Etymology )
Good start would be with the sentence: Jak se máš? I am not sure how to explain pronunciation. You should try to listen to that sentence at Google Translator. It means How are you? The thing is when you ask this question, people not always say (as in America) "great". Very often they take it as a real question and answer according to what is their real feeling in the moment. [:)]
Bohuslav
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Ryan Schatz said:MJ. Smith said:
Agreed. I have this strange, out-dated, philosophy that when I commit myself to something, I should keep my word. I am old enough to remember when "My word is my bond" actually meant something.
I wonder what "Let you yes be yes and your no no" mean.
Ryan, I believe you made a mistake in selecting the text to quote here. You quoted from MJ's post, but the words are mine.
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
When you see my name you know 2 words already. "Bohu" = to God,
What a wonderful meaning of your name! When I saw "bohu" in it before, all I could think of was the Hebrew phrase תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ "tohu va-bohu" (formless and empty) from Gen 1:2. But I like the Czech meaning better.
Bohuslav Wojnar said:and "slav" (actually "sláva") = glory.
Does that mean that all the Slavic languages are glorious languages? [:)]
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Rosie Perera said:
Does that mean that all the Slavic languages are glorious languages?
It depends if you look at them from the Slavic side or from the English one [:D]
Bohuslav
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Jack Caviness said:
Ryan, I believe you made a mistake in selecting the text to quote here. You quoted from MJ's post, but the words are mine.
Sorry, Jack... my mistake.
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