Help with Syntax Search

Could someone please help me with a syntax search? Comfortable doing morphological searches in other programs, but haven't figured out the syntax search in Logos4. I want instances of εκ in the NT with two objects. An example is John 3:5 ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος. Thanks for your help.

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NetworkGeek

There are some videos on Syntax Searching you may want to check out, even the ones using Logos 3 in the videos section are good and aren't too difficult to find the corresponding way to do things in Logos 3.

Here is a graphic of a Syntax search that finds the verse you cited, maybe this can be a starting point for you to play around with it. Best way to build a Syntax Search I think is to look at a verse that complies with what you are looking for, then build a search that matches it. Then look at other verses you think should be there, and use them to refine the search. I don't know enough about what you want to see, so see if this gets you started!

Dave Hooton

but haven't figured out the syntax search in Logos4.

This link will help you - http://wiki.logos.com/Setting_up_a_Syntax_Search + associated links on the page.

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250372#Comment_250372

I understand some of the concepts of the search; yet, the search includes more verses that do not match than do. I don't know how to copy a section of the opentext.org clause analysis, but if you look at John 3:5, υδατος has a specifier εκ; πνευματος does not contain a specifier. Shouldn't both be dependent on the specifier εκ. I'm having trouble grasping the concept used to categorize syntax searches. I only need nouns dependent on a specifier. Hope you can shed some light on this for me. I can't find a way to do a morphological search with multiple components in Logos 4. I may have to dust off my Mac and use Accordance. With a morphological search, I would have a preposition, and two nouns of the required case in a search area of about 7 words.

Thanks,

Greg

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250417#Comment_250417

Hi Gregory

Do you have the Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament? That may provide some better structure for what you are looking for with its use of the "Prepositional Phrase":

If I construct a search against this database as below:

I get results as shown below:

Hope this helps

Graham

PS: As per my post at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/33475.aspx the way the searches are represented seem to have changed in one of the recent betas but hopefully the information above will still make sense!

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250433#Comment_250433

Graham beat me to it, I was going to mention it depends a lot on what resource you are looking at. The search must match how the author of the source analysis document laid out the manuscript. Of course if someone disagrees with the layout they will not be happy with the resource!

As you see here in the OpenText, the specifier is NOT tied to both nouns, just one:

This is not a Logos issue, this is an OpenText resource issue. The authors believe that is more correct, it is our place to agree or disagree.

Opentext seems to, at least in John 3:5, construct the clause as a specifier-noun word group followed by a connector noun word group, so that's why I constructed it that way. If you see verses that are false positives, that could indicate how to modify that search syntax to more properly get what you are looking for.

AS WELL, it is important to note that not all searches can exactly return what you are looking for, with no false positives and no missed verses. It is advisable to construct the search so that an acceptable number of false positives are there, so that no verses are missed. Syntax search is a tool, to help us hone in on the verses we are interested in. It's not going to be 100% for all searches based on the variances of the text.

All that said, Logos offers multiple resources, and maybe in this case Lexham that Graham showed you is a better resource for this search. Logos also offers the Cascadia Syntax graphs of the NT, you may want to see how they lay out the verses you are looking at, to see if that offers you value (not sure if it's in your version of Logos or requires an upgrade, it's in Scholar's Silver and up). If you have other questions let us know!

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250449#Comment_250449

Thanks for all your help. Based on what I have learned, a different syntax search, with different specifications must be done for each resource. Although a syntax search can be the best option sometimes, it is based on the interpretation of the person or group doing the sentence analysis. Is it still possible to do a morphological search with multiple components? Such a search is only based on grammatical tags and is the best option for some searches. Am I missing it in Logos4 somewhere?

Thanks,

Greg

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250464#Comment_250464

Hi Gregory

Is it still possible to do a morphological search with multiple components?

Yes, this is possible - see example below:

Clearly, this loses some of the structure control that you get with Syntax search

For details on the various operators and options - which you might want to play with - see http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help

Graham

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250471#Comment_250471

I'm beginning to understand. I constructed the search below.

This search found several of the passages, and I'm trying to understand why it didn't find Luke 2:4. I know I must be missing something important. Can you help me see it?

I realize the last nominal phrase isn't present in the search but is it necessary?

Thanks

Greg

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250472#Comment_250472

Sorry. When I insert a picture of my search, I disappears when I post it. How do I attach those? I am using the snippet tool.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250473#Comment_250473

How do I attach those? I am using the snippet tool.

Basically you use the paperclip icon - more details at http://wiki.logos.com/Screenshot

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250473#Comment_250473

You'll need to use the paperclip symbol to "upload" the picture, as pasting won't work.

Edit: strange, the other post wasn't there and I didn't take minutes to write this... Anyway: the point we both maybe didn't make clearly enough: you need to save the snip into a file (*.jpg) and then upload it.

Mick

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250474#Comment_250474

Here is the search I constructed for the Cascadia Syntax Graphs.

It found a number of results, but I am trying to understand why it missed Luke 2:4

I know the last nominal phrase is missing in the search, but it is dependent on the first nominal phrase. Can you help me see what I am missing?

Thanks for your help with attaching images.

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250477#Comment_250477

I think I understand. The passage in Luke has an extra nominal phrase in the search area. It seems if I have to find the passage first and then work backwards.

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250480#Comment_250480

Didn't Logos 3 have a robust morphological tool patterned after the GRAMCORD program that would allow morphological searches based on word order, morphological tags, number words with the search area, etc.? It was based on drop-down boxes and fairly simple to use. Was it taken out of Logos4?

Rick Brannan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250477#Comment_250477

Hi Gregory.

It found a number of results, but I am trying to understand why it missed Luke 2:4

You're looking for prepositional phrases where a single preposition has multiple prepositional objects. In Lu 2.4, the preposition only has one object (Δαυίδ); that noun is modified by a compound phrase (οἴκου καὶ πατριᾶς).

Now, if you wanted to, for Phrase 2 (the containing phrase object of the compound nominal phrase) you could set the "is direct child of" property (don't remember the exact terminology in the interface) to false. That would find the compound structure within the prepositional phrase hierarchy. It might also find a bunch of other stuff you may not want, though.

I'll see about some further queries / etc. when I get into the office. I might have some other approaches that could help or at least stimulate thinking.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250480#Comment_250480

The passage in Luke has an extra nominal phrase in the search area

You can cater for this by specifying the "Matching skips levels" on your "Phrase 2" node - this is an option the General attributes of a node. In this case, it will match whether there is the extra nominal phrase (or anything else) or not.

It seems if I have to find the passage first and then work backwards.

Yes, in many ways you need to understand the syntactical construct you are searching for and then search for that with varying degrees of flexibility.

Hope this makes sense.

Graham

Edit: I think the "matching skips levels" mentioned here is the option that Rick was referring to above.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250483#Comment_250483

Hi Gregory

Didn't Logos 3 have a robust morphological tool patterned after the GRAMCORD program that would allow morphological searches based on word order, morphological tags, number words with the search area, etc.? It was based on drop-down boxes and fairly simple to use. Was it taken out of Logos4?

There are a number of threads discussing this - with a call to reinstate some of the capabilities in L3.

See http://community.logos.com/forums/t/26601.aspx (and particularly http://community.logos.com/forums/p/26601/196417.aspx#196417) for one of the threads on this. This has a pointer to a suggestion for this (http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/511165-graphical-search?ref=title) to which you could add your votes.

Graham

Rick Brannan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250488#Comment_250488

Edit: I think the "matching skips levels" mentioned here is the option that Rick was referring to above.

Yep, Graham, that was it. Thanks!

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250487#Comment_250487

The "matching skips levels" did the trick. I will need to dedicate a couple of weeks to learning how the program works. However, I need to learn based on one syntax source at a time. Which is the best?

Not sure I understand the comments about Luke 2:4. εκ has two objects (οικος and πατρια). Δαυιδ is a genitive of definition.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250501#Comment_250501

Which is the best?

I see it as less that there is a "best" - it is rather that they do different things.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3389/26326.aspx#26326 is a (old) post from Rick which summarises the key differences (the Lexham resource is now complete and available although it wasn't when Rick wrote the post)

Graham

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250501#Comment_250501

After reading your earlier post, I think I understand. You are viewing Δαυιδ as the object of the preposition and both οικος and πατρια as genitives defining Δαυιδ. Is that correct?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250517#Comment_250517

Hi Gregory

After reading your earlier post, I think I understand.

I think this refers to the post made by Rich - and I'll leave it to him to respond!

Can I encourage you to look at using the "Quote" feature when replying to a post to make it easier to keep track of conversations?

Details can be found under the section entitled "Reply Post Editor" under http://wiki.logos.com/Using_the_Forum#Adding_a_Reply_to_a_post

Graham

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250517#Comment_250517

After reading your earlier post, I think I understand. You are viewing Δαυιδ as the object of the preposition and both οικος and πατρια as genitives defining Δαυιδ. Is that correct?

I'd say that's how the Cascadia Analysis presents it.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250487#Comment_250487

Hi Gregory.

It found a number of results, but I am trying to understand why it missed Luke 2:4

You're looking for prepositional phrases where a single preposition has multiple prepositional objects. In Lu 2.4, the preposition only has one object (Δαυίδ); that noun is modified by a compound phrase (οἴκου καὶ πατριᾶς).

Now, if you wanted to, for Phrase 2 (the containing phrase object of the compound nominal phrase) you could set the "is direct child of" property (don't remember the exact terminology in the interface) to false. That would find the compound structure within the prepositional phrase hierarchy. It might also find a bunch of other stuff you may not want, though.

I'll see about some further queries / etc. when I get into the office. I might have some other approaches that could help or at least stimulate thinking.

This is the follow-up I mentioned earlier. The search as originally constructed would also miss out on valid (according to Cascadia) compound-object prepositional phrases like Mt 3.11:

Here the object has an adjectival phrase further modifying it, but the first query didn't locate it because of the strict np->np->noun structure. You can get around that by using the syntax query editor "agreement' capabilities. First, a digression.

Cascadia is an example of (I think this is the correct terminology) head-driven phrase grammar. So in the Cascadia graphs, when a node has more than one child, an asterisk notes which node is considered the head of the structure. When there is only one child, many times (not all the time) the head is not specifically noted by an asterisk, but there is a 'head' nonetheless. The data for the 'head' is encoded at each node. In this case the 'head' of the CL is the verb (finite verbs are almost always the clause heads by definition) so the data for βαπτισει is encoded at the CL, the V, the vp and the verb. You can see it in the graphs just by hovering over the node (look to the bottom left corner of the window, at least in the Windows version of Logos4). This allows that information to be accessed anywhere along the graph when searching. We also encode 'instance' information at each point, so it can be known which word 'instance' the head actually points to.

Because of all of this, we can match a node (like a noun phrase (np)) to its 'instance' using agreement and 'matching skips levels', and this means we don't have to worry about the levels between (the levels are what causes Mt 3.11 not to match the original query).

Apologies because I'm using 4.3 beta 5, which has a bug that prevents 'detail' view of the query, and only shows 'concise' view. But here's a query with agreement:

The 'terminal node' I've selected has a dotted line previous to it, indicating the "Matching Skips Levels" feature is set to true. Look at the agreement. For the terminal node, the 'instance' encoded should match the instance encoded for "Phrase 3" (which is "Nominal 3" in the concise view). This just means the head term that is encoded at Phrase/Nominal 3 is the same as that at Terminal Node/Noun 3.

We do the same at the second object. This means that there can be any intervening structure whatever between "Nominal 3" and "Terminal Node+ 3", such as we see in Mt 3.11, but it will still match and return a hit. This search gives me 168 results in CascadiaSBLGNT; the previous (no agreement / skip levels) returned 73 hits.

Hope it helps explain a few things, particularly some of the power and flexibility that can be had using 'instance' agreement and "Matching Skips Levels".

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250585#Comment_250585

Rick

This is really useful and provides some additional insight (which I can always use!)

Thanks, Graham

Houston B Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250607#Comment_250607

Thanks for your help. It will take me some time to figure these searches out.