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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 7:04 PM

JeffersonMarshall:
The instrument cannot fulfill 1 Corinthians 14:15 and Hebrews 13:15 either. God tells us what and where to sing and what to use to sing (voice, in the individual heart and in the midst [heart] of the assembly). If you go back to the Ephesians 5:15-19 text, you cannot miss the implications, unless you want to.

I agree that there is no direct support for using musical instruments in the NT but note 1 Co 14:7 (NET):
"It is similar for lifeless things that make a sound, like a flute or harp. Unless they make a distinction in the notes, how can what is played on the flute or harp be understood?".

So their utility is recognised - more importantly their use is not forbidden. A lifeless instrument can be played to convey something very meaningful. The trumpet solo in Handel's Messiah is awesome. Surely one can allow that God may anoint both players and singers in the heart and in the midst of the assembly? You see, Eph 5:19 "speaking" can mean "to utter/emit articulate sound waves" whilst the second part "singing" is clearly using the voice.

 

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 7:24 PM

JeffersonMarshall:
The ESV renderings in most cases do not literally reflect the Greek as accurately as the NASB.

If that is the NASB (as opposed to NASB95) in Eph 5:19 then the second part is not literal as the Greek word for "hearts" is singular.  "Addressing" is allowed by the Greek word as I mentioned earlier.

 

Dave
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Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 8:52 PM

JeffersonMarshall:

Yes. There is absolutely no biblical support for musical instruments in the NT worship.

Since it is conceded that it is not mentioned, why use it?  

Then why use Bible software? Its use isn't supported in the Bible either.

Posts 14
Saint | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 9:51 PM

Jim stated that this is not the forum for a theological discussion and as such I will comply and differ to my previous posts.

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 10:00 PM

JeffersonMarshall:
Jim stated that this is not the forum for a theological discussion and as such I will comply and differ to my previous posts.

Jim is correct - many thanka for honoring this.  We all need to remember this - I too sometimes fall into the trap of responding to details that are not related to Logos and its software.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 150
Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 4:55 AM

Thank you!

Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; (Php 1:27, NASB95)

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, (1 Pe 1:22-23, NKJV)

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. (Php 4:8, ESV)

 

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 32
Pastor Johnny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 6:06 AM

If I remember correctly, when Logos brought out the ESV Reverse Interlinear, they made the statement that they intended to eventually produce reverse interlinears for all/most of the major translations. Since that time, I have been patiently waiting for the NASB Reverse Interlinear. I would sign up for it today if it were put on pre-pub.

 

joh

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 8:18 AM

Interesting; everyone is suppose to stick to topic and you are reciting scripture. Don't get me wrong I love the Bible and you can quote scripture all day long in any post in any topic and not offend me; though, to tell everyone that they cannot express their particular understanding of scripture and throw fire on the conversation only to then give a sermon is a bit of a contradiction.

You made it clear that we are to stick to topic and not deviate at all; I guess this does not apply to you?

 

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 6:53 AM

Floyd Johnson:

JeffersonMarshall:
Jim stated that this is not the forum for a theological discussion and as such I will comply and differ to my previous posts.

Jim is correct - many thanka for honoring this.  We all need to remember this - I too sometimes fall into the trap of responding to details that are not related to Logos and its software.

Blessings,

Floyd

...and it just started to be interesting Sad

Sometimes I think, why it is so touchy (is it right English word?) to speak about all different opinions? Why we should be so dismissive to hear a different opinions? If I see the other side of the discussion honors the Word of God as I do, just have a different opinion, I am glad we can touch the subject without being so afraid of it. Of course it should be just "spice" and not "meat" of the Logos forums. Let us be free and open with our different views...

" 15All of us, then, who are maturea should take such a view of things.b And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.c  Smile16Only let us live up to what we have already attained."

The Holy Bible : Today's New International Version. 2005 (Php 3:15-16). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Bohuslav

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 10:08 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

...and it just started to be interesting Sad

Sometimes I think, why it is so touchy (is it right English word?) to speak about all different opinions? Why we should be so dismissive to hear a different opinions? If I see the other side of the discussion honors the Word of God as I do, just have a different opinion, I am glad we can touch the subject without being so afraid of it. Of course it should be just "spice" and not "meat" of the Logos forums. Let us be free and open with our different views...

Good point, Bohuslav

Why can we not discuss differing opinions as mature adults (perhaps that is the problem, we can not alway discuss opinions like mature adults). When a discussion degenerates to name-calling and insults, it is time to terminate, but up to that point, most discussions are quite interesting and informative.

Jack

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 11:09 AM

JackCaviness:

Why can we not discuss differing opinions as mature adults (perhaps that is the problem, we can not alway discuss opinions like mature adults). When a discussion degenerates to name-calling and insults, it is time to terminate, but up to that point, most discussions are quite interesting and informative.

Jack

Good points Brother Jack,

You know by the many times I've gone awry on the forums that I enjoy a good discussion. There once was a chat group on MSN called "A God's Fight" where "people of every faith & no faith" (as Prez Obama likes to say) would wile away the hours debating. It was a thouroughly wonderful waste of time. The chat room is a better place for off-the-cuff remarks because they are soon buried and forgotten.  The forum is not a good place to memorialize our disagreements. But it can be expected that the likes of us will always have a thought or word to add. Every now and then those quotes are worth a whole day of reading. Getting back on topic :Yes, a NASB Reverse Interlinear would be nice.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 14
Saint | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 11:20 AM

I had to respond to this.

Sorry "hearts" was a typo. It should be "heart." Also "Addressing" is allowed by the greek word. 

Posts 14
Saint | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 11:47 AM
This too, needs clarification and then this would be my last on this post. There is absolutely NO indirect or direct support for the use of musical instruments in worship. "Speaking" does not apply to instruments but to the human and his vocal chords, which express intelligible words, NOT sounds, of gratitude to God. Please pay close attention, again, to my previous posts on the subject, which amplifies the point that it is NOT playing that vocally addresses or speaks, but people who possess the capacity to reason and speak (address). Again do not forget that we worship God, we do NOT entertain ourselves. God is the "audience" or object of our worship, not what we desire. Again, let me be clear. IF it is an imperative for musical instruments in worship to God, then ALL must sing and all MUST play an instrument for it to be accepted by God for musical instruments to be. This, none of the denominational world does, and thus are in error. We all MUST sing. None of the verses support the idea to have some singing, or some singing and others playing, or some playing. All MUST sing, and ALL can carryout the act of singing. If we all take things to there logical conclusion, then adhering to the scriptures is so simple. Just remove self from the picture and you should be able to see God's will more clearly. Have a great weekend all.
Posts 2745
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 11:54 AM

JeffersonMarshall:
Again do not forget that we worship God, we do NOT entertain ourselves. God is the "audience" or object of our worship, not what we desire.

Yes, I like to say to our congregation that during the worship, there is just one listener, all others are worshipers. When I said it the first time, people looked kind of... surprised Surprise

Bohuslav

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 12:25 PM

JeffersonMarshall:
There is absolutely NO indirect or direct support for the use of musical instruments in worship.

6 Then I saw between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders a Lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. 8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 They sing a new song:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God
saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;
10     you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,
and they will reign on earth.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Re 5:6-10). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
And don't forget that you can't eat potato, tomato or corn or use a toilet since it isn't in scripture. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2745
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 12:34 PM

George Somsel:

JeffersonMarshall:
There is absolutely NO indirect or direct support for the use of musical instruments in worship.

 

6 Then I saw between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders a Lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. 8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 They sing a new song:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God
saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;
10     you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,
and they will reign on earth.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Re 5:6-10). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
And don't forget that you can't eat potato, tomato or corn or use a toilet since it isn't in scripture. 

Nice Scripture Georg. I like it very much. It shows true reverence and awe, modern Christians tend to loose. We are just too egocentric in our generation.

But to your comment: just to complicate it, there were no potatoes in both NT, and OT. But we have an instruments in the OT in many places. So, we would have to find an example of a thing which had been in the OT but not mentioned in the NT, and we have a good reason to use it. Nothing so far computed in my brain for that matter Cool

Bohuslav

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 2:02 PM

George Somsel:
And don't forget that you can't eat potato, tomato or corn or use a toilet since it isn't in scripture. 

George while i agree the whole of life is worship, i think jefferson is referring to worship in a more technical sense. One can argue what about micro phones, is that allowed since preaching is part of worship? But i think i get his point, eating potato, tomato or corn or the use of a toilet is not worship within the context he is speaking of  - come on now. I suspect he is of a Reformed persuasion or coming at it from a particular Reformed perspective. If that is the case the point about micro phones is a valid one as in the Reform tradition Preaching is also worship.

I love the Reformed faith & i think they try to be faithful to scripture (I affirm the essentials of the Reform faith though i would not go that far). However that said i would have loved to hear how Jefferson would have handle or how he would have responded to the scripture your cited below. I guess for an honest inquirer like myself i will never know b/cos he Jefferson wants to respect the rules of the forum. 

George Somsel:
8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 They sing a new song:

Your brother

Sir T

 

 

 

 

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Posts 14
Saint | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 3:04 PM
Well, I guess I must be drawn back into this discussion. Hopefully this last post coupled with my previous ones, when truthfully analyzed (i.e divorce yourselves and properly look at the text) will help with this issue bring clarity. This is purely symbolic language. To understand a material harp in a purely spiritual realm, played by spirit beings, is, of course, incongruous. It will be necessary to find what they, as symbols, represent if any application is made to things on earth, just as is necessary in other features of the vision. If all is to be taken strictly as literal and applied to the church, then each Christian would have to use a harp individually in worshiping. This would require as many harps as individuals in the congregation, which is quite enough to show the absurdity of any such interpretation. If one were to use the text of Revelation 19:1-7, this would both symbolically and literally be true (applicable to the church and NOT violate the command for us to sing, Romans 15:10-11; Ephesians 5:17-19; Colossians 3:15-16; 1 Corinthians 14:15; Hebrews 13:15) and hence eliminate musical instruments. Notice the angels were "saying or speaking" together, just like how it ought to be done here on the earth. Matthew 16:19 should help us understand that. The fact that Christ is with us in worship should comfort us in what we can (not) do. Ask yourselves what is He doing (Romans 2:12) and what He commands (Romans 15:10-11)? If we are to worship God in heaven (if we make it), we would have to be properly trained down here on the earth. We cannot do stuff that has not been authorized in heaven. Again, I refer you to my previous posts. It does not seem that they are given the weight that they require, because what is said eliminates what some would like to have done. I am not of the reformed persuasion, but I do examine the scriptures (Acts 17:11 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21) thoroughly. You have to jump though to many hoops (add your personal preferences) to think musical instruments in worship is allowed. Mechanical instruments are NOT expedients to the command to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with the mind and spirit and the understanding to God, period. BTW. Ted is closer to understanding the perspective. Bye guys
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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 3:21 PM

Ted Hans:
 I suspect he is of a Reformed persuasion or coming at it from a particular Reformed perspective.

That is not Reformed.  I should know.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 17 2009 3:22 PM

JeffersonMarshall:
Well, I guess I must be drawn back into this discussion. Hopefully this last post coupled with my previous ones, when truthfully analyzed (i.e divorce yourselves and properly look at the text) will help with this issue bring clarity. This is purely symbolic language. To understand a material harp in a purely spiritual realm, played by spirit beings, is, of course, incongruous. It will be necessary to find what they, as symbols, represent if any application is made to things on earth, just as is necessary in other features of the vision. If all is to be taken strictly as literal and applied to the church, then each Christian would have to use a harp individually in worshiping. This would require as many harps as individuals in the congregation, which is quite enough to show the absurdity of any such interpretation. If one were to use the text of Revelation 19:1-7, this would both symbolically and literally be true (applicable to the church and violate the command for us to sing, Romans 15:10-11; Ephesians 5:17-19; Colossians 3:15-16; 1 Corinthians 14:15; Hebrews 13:15) and hence eliminate musical instruments. Notice the angels were "saying or speaking" together, just like in how it ought to be done here on the earth. Matthew 16:19 should help us understand that. The fact that Christ is with us in worship should comfort us in what we can (not) do. Ask yourselves what is He doing (Romans 2:12) and what He commands (Romans 15:10-11)? If we are to worship God in heaven (if we make it), we would have to be properly trained down here on the earth. We cannot do stuff that has not been authorized in heaven. Again, I refer you to my previous posts. It does not seem that they are given the weight that they require, because what is said eliminates what some would like to have done. I am not of the reformed persuasion, but I do examine the scriptures (Acts 17:11 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21) thoroughly. You have to jump though to many hoops (add your personal preferences) to think musical instruments in worship is allowed. Mechanical instruments are NOT expedients to the command to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with the mind and spirit and the understanding to God, period. BTW. Ted is closer to understanding the perspective. Bye guys

Thanks for your response, well appreciated. I will have to give this more serious thought and read the rest of your post carefully.

Regards.

Ted

 

 

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