Works of Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone (restoration preachers)

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 1:41 PM

David Emme:
we make judgements without even reading the material that people say is heretical and do this based on other people saying or writing.

WOW, you must have taken the day off to write that! :)

One keen insight you expounded on was "our" tendency to flock around teachers and their systematizing without doing our own study, and likewise, blasting others as wrong, just because someone told us they were wrong.  The reasons for this reaction are many, but the result is division and condescension toward other brothers and sisters, which is often based on false information and inference.

Personally, I don't understand some things, like KJV Onlyism, yet I have read some arguments for it and realize there is more nuance than I thought of at one time.  Nevertheless, when I study for sermons, I do some Greek and I always compare 5 or 6 translations, always using a KJV (sometimes NKJV) as one of them.  Out of that, I sometimes find they translated a particular passage very well.  One example is their consistent use of "to walk" in Ephesians (walk in darkness, walk in good works).  I like the imagery and the connections when the Greek is translated that way throughout, compared to the NIV which says "to live" in some cases, and though "accurate" in meaning, for me it loses a bit of impact.  When I find examples like that, I bring them up in a sermon or study setting.  On the other hand, there are times when the English is way outdated so that the meaning is obscured, and there are times when I have to point that out too (although I do that more in a study setting rather than in a sermon).  My prefered  translation is really . . . none.  I like different ones for different reasons, but to me, all have their problems. . . even the Greek. :)  Not trying to open a can of worms.  Probably did.

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David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 2:31 PM

Daniel DeVilder:

WOW, you must have taken the day off to write that! :)

 

Not really do not work:) I am a professional bum for the Lord.

Many years in my studies have been seeing the weakness of arguments from mymovements an the inability to answer others when it is to easy-when you try to shape your thinking to have sound reaoning. Most cannot answer the fact that Erasmus was not a textual critic as proposed by many nor intended to have a new Greek text. Of course, this means you would have to learn about textual criticism and how it developed after Erasmus was dead and he did not use the rules supplied originally by Jacob Gersbach and still used today.

We on the pro KJV side are lasy and anti intellectual for the simple fact i would be easier to teach the KJV corrects the Greek and Hebrew instead of actually using and learning Greek and Hebrew. BTW, I think Ruckman and Riplinger is wrong in e erything they teach about the bible.

even this, being challanged by my own about whether the bible teaches this or that based on translation-I studied and actually came to the conclusion that both the KJV and the ESV-though different English words-bot were correct which made everyone flip out, but while showing the work on how I came to this, no one could dispute this.

Many of my problems deals with translation issues(dynamic) and Greek texts that ere born out of German rationlism and modernism and is not based on fact, but assumptions and reasoning.

Can we talk about a recension of the MT if we do not really know? Simply, Alexanderia was sacked and scholars hid their work to preserve it(not as KJV onlyists say they never used them therefore why they were preserved. In a different time before rome became christian, there was an order that went out to burn all religous works not in line with Roman paganism which happened alot in the Byzantine empire where the MT came from. Is this a fact? No, not as far as explaining why there is no Greek manuscripts from the MT appearing only in the 10th century. Yet I believe it is a very plausible explanation.

Yet, to bring this, this means you have to read history and do some research. We are lazy and do not realize we could convinve more if we learned how to do research and use our minds-this takes to much work.

The reason for the comment on electic text being modernistic(not in the same accusation as others bring because I think modernism did more for our society where if it stays out of faith and religion-modernism was rather useful or we would not be able to communicate like this if we did not hace modernism and if it is so bad and must repudiate modernism-turn out youtr lights). Of course, most Independent Fundamental Baptists are ignorant of what Rationalism and Modernism is: truth based on imperical evidances or understand our history of fundamentalism.

Treating the bible like any other ancient text is a modernistic, rationalist belief which is why I say modern textual criticism is "modernistic" and still studying much about modernism, rationalism, post modernism, textual criticism, and many other things-mainly becase Emergent church movement is nothing but a lie and intended to destroy conservatism and fundamentalism while bringing back the inclusive social gospel movement. I can show this if anyone thinks I am making a judgement without evidance. The wuestion then is, is fundamentalism based on modernism? This is what emergent theology teaches. They even admit the reason for their movement is because liberalism is dead in christianity and the strength in Christianity is in conservatism and fundamnetalism. Yes, they actually admit this, but do not realize they taught this.

This with Jerry Falwell seen by some as the eason why reagen won his first election with his moral majority in the 70's.

Much of this comes naturally to me because i choose to study and research. That is why I do not see my stuff as work besides enjoying doingit. I want to know the truth about everything biblical and not be decieved ever. Might not agree with me, but that is okay and sometimes a matter of perspective.

To repeat, most KJV onlyists are ignorant of the real reasons why we are KJV onlyists and are anti-intellectual and lazy.

 

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 2:55 PM

@ David Emme: I can tell you take research seriously.  I applaud your efforts in that, and believe that under God's guidance and wisdom, that will profit you.  And yes, many people, not just KJVO'ists, are lazy.  That probably includes me, at times . . .

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 3:53 PM

David Buckham:

What if all theologies aren't flawed necessarily, they are just incomplete?  You know, there is somewhat of a God-mystery behind every theology?  Maybe two different theologies can actually complement each other when you figure the God portion out?

Just some questions for the discussion, which has gotten way off topic by the way.

all about Christ,
David Buckham

Good, really good. Worthy of an issue of Millenial Harbinger. (<- How's that for getting back on topic?)

I guess I think "imperfect" = "incomplete" = "less than the whole Truth."  If I give you some of the Truth but not the whole Truth I could have just lied to you (intentionaly or not.)

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 4:01 PM

Daniel DeVilder:
It is clear we see "dimly".  but scripture also tells us God revealed his mystery, that he is light, that we can walk in light, that we can know him.  That knowing seems to be both content and relationship.  Flawed?  Or incomplete?  Sometimes, maybe a little of both.  But he is greater than our flaws.  And we are called to be witnesses, to tell what we know.

Agreed. But that "knowing" Him should be based in His Word and not the words of mere mortals. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 4:15 PM

David Emme:
We on the pro KJV side are lazy and anti intellectual

There was an interesting article in the New York Times' Science Section a few weeks back on "motivated reasoning" - talked about how we use our minds differently when we are being "rational" about something we believe vs. something we don't believe. It was a total downer for myself since I would very much like to care on rational debates on religious matters. Sad

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 4:40 PM

MJ. Smith:

Matthew C Jones:
Experience is nothing more than an interpretation of events,

How thoroughly Buddhist - I'm quite pleased with the inter-faith aspect. (okay, I'm biased by a degree in Buddhist studies.)

I don't mean to be of Eastern thought. I just slip that way sometimes since I was surrounded by it in my youth. (I am getting ready to jettison my Soka Gakkai Budddhist library -in Japanese. I no longer have need of it.)

MJ. Smith:

Matthew C Jones:
Since Truth is not self-contradictory.

How thoroughly Western - while I agree with you, it is a human assumption that should be challenged in philosophy or theology.

Truth is absolute by definition. Otherwise we are back to that question "Can God create a rock heavier than He can lift?"

MJ. Smith:

Matthew C Jones:
nobody can write an accurate,  comprehensive theology.

Absolutely true for any definition of God that I would be willing to accept, especially since I lean towards apophatic theology

I agree that the human mind is not capable of comprehending God. But I also agree with what Daniel said above, simply that we can KNOW him through Christ. But I believe that is only possiblle in the spirit. The naturall mind is still incapable.  Now you've got me preaching a theology!  Zip it!

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 5:11 PM

Just a point of clarification:

When I originated this post I was asking Logos to consider adding the writings of Alexander Campbell and Barton W. Stone. I thoroughly enjoy reading almost any reputable theology (except Karl Barf Ick! ) and think I can learn a lot from just about all of them. I do not hold them in higher esteem than the Bible of even of equal esteem.  I know the Restoration Movement has produced some very sharp minds and beneficial writings and I would like to share them with you.

Thanks to Calvin Habig for his work on PBB of Restoration material. Thanks to MJ Smith for the different "creeds"  - alhough they would not label them as such.

I always enjoy the veering off topic that happens. too. Devil

 

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 5:21 PM

Matthew C Jones:

MJ. Smith:

Matthew C Jones:
nobody can write an accurate,  comprehensive theology.

Absolutely true for any definition of God that I would be willing to accept, especially since I lean towards apophatic theology

I notice that several folks on the forums lean toward  apoplectic theology.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 5:24 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I guess I think "imperfect" = "incomplete" = "less than the whole Truth."  If I give you some of the Truth but not the whole Truth I could have just lied to you (intentionaly or not.)

 

not necessarily.  Incomplete might mean that you simply can't describe the full breadth of something.  Take Christ's Sacrifice.  I know it "saves me", that it is why my sins can be forgiven, but the cross and sacrifice itself has way more depth, perhaps even a bit of mystery (and we can also argue whether it is EXpiatory or PROpitiatory . . . but if all i tell you that it is God's way of forgiving you . . . that is a worthy start (and then the question is: "HOW" do I appropriate it . .. . )

 

Or if you want to look at the whole predestination debate.  All sides have some nuance of truth, but obviously someone has gone awry.  Do we know who has gone awry how much ("of course! to the degree that that differ from me, THAT is how much they have gone wrong).  Still, scripture does speak to God's movement in history, as well as man's response, and somehow, thru all that, people accept their calling, whether irresistibly or by choice . . . lol.

 

 

 

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 5:31 PM

Joe Miller:

Absolutely true for any definition of God that I would be willing to accept, especially since I lean towards apophatic theology

I notice that several folks on the forums lean toward  apoplectic theology.

 

. . . your sure that it isn't apathetic theology?

 

. . . or maybe a pathetic theology . . .   :)

 

 

 

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 5:38 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Just a point of clarification:

When I originated this post I was asking Logos to consider adding the writings of Alexander Campbell and Barton W. Stone.

I need to go back through the thread and check out those offerings.  I have the hard copies (emphasis on copies .. .) of some of the early addresses/letters.  Be nice to have them digitally.


AND you will see I suggested they add the Encyclopedia of Campbell Stone Movement (or whatever it is called).  Angel

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David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 6:26 PM

MJ. Smith:

There was an interesting article in the New York Times' Science Section a few weeks back on "motivated reasoning" - talked about how we use our minds differently when we are being "rational" about something we believe vs. something we don't believe. It was a total downer for myself since I would very much like to care on rational debates on religious matters. Sad

I will have to check this article out. Thing I think we do not consider is the bible is both rational and irrational.

The rational being the fact there is many teachings and doctrines which we can draw from and understand in rational thinking- observing from the text.

My example would be observing the facts from Acts 1 and 2 to understand Acts 2:38 is about Spirit baptism and not water baptism(sorry, my intention is not to start a debate on baptism in a board on restoration works-email at daveme7@yahoo.com so I can invite you to my debate graoup on yeahoo to get into it there-or just emal me andI will write up an article on this and email it back to you.)

Yet, Christ as the Man-God, dying for our sins, the Trinity, and speaking the word into existance and completing his creation work in seven days is the most irrational beliefs that can only be taken by faith and not taken as something that we can understand by our own reasoning/understanding because we were not there(as far as creation) and we believe the bible by faith.

 

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David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 6:38 PM

Daniel DeVilder:

@ David Emme: I can tell you take research seriously.  I applaud your efforts in that, and believe that under God's guidance and wisdom, that will profit you.  And yes, many people, not just KJVO'ists, are lazy.  That probably includes me, at times . . .

 

Thanks for the kind words and sentiments. Knowing I want to be in full time ministry, one ofthe things id to be a leader of those in my movement willing to follow. Mainly taking us out of anti intellectualism(because of Seminaries which departed from the truth and ito modernism) and back to a faithful study of things theological.

This, I thought of trying to start an online theological journal for independent frundamental Baptists to help bring us back into an intelligent faith and study of scriptures. Of course, I do not even have a bachelors degree and spent three semesters in an unaccredited bible college-one of the reasons leaving was because what I was learning, I could get better instruction from my pastor(in the bible institute at my church and his teaching at church services) and my mentor and discipler who now holds sevveral Masters degrees in theology and one doctrate.

This to the point, someone can know as much as a doctor of theology if you study on your own with the right direction-but also could be a bad thing if everyone decides to start something like a bible college or a theological journal.

Anyways, should let you know about a project I am working on about influancing thousands of churches and millions of christians in regards to bible study and might call upon some here to write an article for a blog on that hermeneutical tool that you use the most or method that is most beneficial in your studies. a I am working on this project, all I  can say is it is about bible study and hope to get many involved.

God bless

Dave Emme

 

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David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 6:58 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I guess I think "imperfect" = "incomplete" = "less than the whole Truth."  If I give you some of the Truth but not the whole Truth I could have just lied to you (intentionaly or not.)

I thought I clarified what I meant by imperfect.  I think it is quite audacious to suggest that I know every piece of theology on say, salvation or end times.  I think it would be a great article for an issue of Millenial Harbinger...if you are interested more in a related idea email me off the forum at dbuckham AT gmail DOT com. 

In what I am saying, You are not intentionally giving someone some of the Truth.  Politicians are seen as great at telling portions of truth to prevent a lie...if I understand your stance, I think that is what you are referring to, what I am referring to is something that is different, at least in my head.  I am suggesting you have what you think is the whole truth, your theology.  One of the things I appreciate about the initial thrust of the Restoration Movement is that they never claimed to have all the answers, but they had a comment to discussing questions.

I heard a preacher do a really great job of piecing together Calvinism and Armenianism once.  He based it on the book Flatland (great short book).

all about Christ,

David Buckham

all about Christ,

David Buckham

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 11:21 PM

David Emme:
the bible is both rational and irrational

I fully agree - and agree that it is an important point to understand. Where I run into trouble in my own study is questioning where the dividing line is between legitimately being beyond reason vs. an interpretation being contrary to reason.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 25 2009 8:41 PM

<I really like your story as an exempla - although I have my usual whimiscal smile at the use of the phrase "high view" - but we've been through that discussion before. But to me, the deepest point your story makes is one that is often lost in the discussion of Bible study, Bible software, etc. That is that Welsh was teaching you Jesus Christ not the Bible, except in the sense that Jesus is the Word.>

I was not part of your "high view" of Scripture discussion, and so I cannot comment on that. I see a high view of Scripture as the acceptance of its authority as the ultimate Truth (reality). Welsh was certainly teaching me the Bible, but his emphasis was on the Christ of the Bible. Man creates an idol with his mind prior to forming it with his hands, and there are many christs, but only one unique Son of God as revealed in Scripture. I do not have a problem with theology as long as it is Biblically based, albeit my brethern in the Restoration Movement do not for the most part agree with me. Without a Biblically based theology it is extremely difficult, but not impossible, to teach the difference between the Christ of the Hypostatic Union and the Kenotic christ.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 25 2009 10:28 PM

David Buckham:
In what I am saying, You are not intentionally giving someone some of the Truth.  Politicians are seen as great at telling portions of truth to prevent a lie...if I understand your stance, I think that is what you are referring to, what I am referring to is something that is different, at least in my head.  I am suggesting you have what you think is the whole truth, your theology.  One of the things I appreciate about the initial thrust of the Restoration Movement is that they never claimed to have all the answers, but they had a comment to discussing questions.

I guess I am more evil-bent than most. I think giving a portion of the truth results in deceit since the empty spaces are filled by the natural mind that doesn't have all the facts. The lie is implied as truth. Politicians, like Satan, infuse bits of truth into the lie to make it more believable. I am not puffing false humility when I say I do not have the whole truth in my theology.  My working theology is a changing hodge-podge of other's theologies.  The closer I get to death the more wonder I have about the whole matter.  

2 Corinthians 9:15    -- "Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

While the Restoration Movement allows a lot of latitude to get into deep subjects, musings and queries, it does not require any answers to be decided outside of the Bible. I like that because I feel more like an infant sleeping in the arms of Jesus than a wise man conversant in the deep things.

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Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 27 2009 8:24 PM

Matthew C Jones:

I guess I am more evil-bent than most. I think giving a portion of the truth results in deceit since the empty spaces are filled by the natural mind that doesn't have all the facts. The lie is implied as truth. Politicians, like Satan, infuse bits of truth into the lie to make it more believable. I am not puffing false humility when I say I do not have the whole truth in my theology.  My working theology is a changing hodge-podge of other's theologies.  The closer I get to death the more wonder I have about the whole matter.  

2 Corinthians 9:15    -- "Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

While the Restoration Movement allows a lot of latitude to get into deep subjects, musings and queries, it does not require any answers to be decided outside of the Bible. I like that because I feel more like an infant sleeping in the arms of Jesus than a wise man conversant in the deep things.

The beauty of the Restoration Movement is, "Speaking where the Bible speaks, and remaining silent where the Bible is silent. Let's be prefectly clear when we speak under those conditions with love that is truth, a theology. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 27 2009 8:52 PM

Gary Butner:
I see a high view of Scripture as the acceptance of its authority as the ultimate Truth (reality).

The previous discussion allowed me to understand the term "high view" as you use it; it was not part of my theological vocabulary. However, I am fascinated by your attaching the phrase "ultimate Truth" to Scripture. I can use "ultimate Truth" to refer to God or to the "Word of God i.e. Jesus" but I have trouble understanding what it means when applied to Scripture in human (limited) language.

I was also a bit puzzled by:

Gary Butner:
the difference between the Christ of the Hypostatic Union and the Kenotic christ

Doing a web search to determine what you meant I found a wonderful line: "The Kenotic Theory was first scientifically formulated by Thomasius in Germany, (1860 to 1880)" http://www.errantskeptics.org/Jesus-Christ-Kenosis.htm

Pardon my sense of humor, but I'm set to write a skit on the science experiment behind this formulation - I assume that Thomasius had to get God's cooperation to generate multiple sons on which to test the various conditions ... does it also require multiple universes? multiple original sins?

But, seriously, the web site did help me understand that portion of your post - now only puzzled by the use of "ultimate Truth"

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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