Works of Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone (restoration preachers)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jul 17 2009 8:02 PM

I would like to see a Logos version of the writings of Alexander Campbell  and other leaders of the "Restoration Movement."

Alexander was such an eloquent speaker and critical thinker that even though his debate opponents disagreed with his views, they still conceded he won the debates. They even warned each other not to debate him.
This sharp intellect was evidenced in two publications Alexander edited spanning almost 40 years.

The Christian Baptist (published from 1823~30) and
The Millennial Harbinger (published from 1830~66)

Readers from all over would write in questions and arguments tapping or challenging his keen mind. The ongoing dialogue is a good read. Sometimes it makes one go back to the Scriptures for a closer look.

Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.

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David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 8:07 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.

I agree. Not that I afree with Stone orCampbell, but when they came out with SDA resources, I went ahead and bought it.

A couple of reasons, first, many cults practically ripped off Barton-Stone on restorationism.

In fact, I would like to see Logos publish more works from actual cults such as Mormons and JW's. The reason why because there are some people like me whom have an interest in studying aberrant groups and cults, meaning having access to their materials and source documents is important for research reasons.

On the other hand, there is a so called"Cult" that I learn from quite a bit in my own spirituality. The Local Church of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

Of course, I do not think they are a cult and for the most part, taking a portion of one work on the Trinity that emphasizes the onenss of the Trinity and then not approach any other work from Nee or Lee or Living Streams(the publishing arm) where they affirm the orthodox understandng og the Trinity.

Often times, people fail to realize, the standard, orthodox definition of the Trinity includes an element of the Trinity being one, yet three seperate entities.

It is only controversial because they happen to sue orginazations which publish them as cults and yet do not want to enter into a discourse about their beliefs openly.

I went to a Local Church while in the Army in Takoma, researched what everyone said about them about being a cult and did not even approach much of what was stated because I even noticed how people were intentionally warping their views. On the Trinity and other things, I was allowed to freely ask any elder in public, even if I happened to disagree. I just never saw them as a cult. I took the time to actually find out and recievedmany blessings from that assembly.

Yes, they are also a bit restorational and disagree with that, but they never had a problem with my disagreement.

Yet, we can buy SDA and now Roman Catholic resources(which I really do not have a problem with), but when something else is considered contreversial-we are not going to see them on Logos.

Roman Catholicism not controversial? I think many martyrs will disgree. Ellen G White's writings not controversial? Only because some in Christianity took them off their cult list.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 8:34 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.

I agree not because I would purchase them but because I think they would help pull in another potential group of Logos users ... and I support each step towards a broader constituency.  My bias is, of course, the Orthodox-Catholic-Lutheran-Anglican end of the resources but I'm willing to support the small steps along the way.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 9:20 PM

David Emme:
A couple of reasons, first, many cults practically ripped off Barton-Stone on restorationism

I was suprised myself to learn how some early writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses did get copied from the Restoration Movement. Also it is my understanding a bit of Mormonism was copied from the Masonic Lodge. I am also familiar with Watchman Nee and respected his life work and writings very much, I don't know as much about Witness Lee but I am aware of a later cult-ish type following that emerged.

I think in most sects, whether we would call them cults or just denominnations, The original founders would be shocked to see the modern day result.

I find it useful to be aware of the teachings of other groups. I have Decker's Complete Handbook on Mormonism on pre-pub for just that reason. I also have the SDA commentaries . I think the writings of Alexander Campbell are different in that you can witness his growth as he corrects his stand based on further study. In other words, I think he was an honest man truly searching for what the Bible taught rather than what men said.

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David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 10:36 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I was suprised myself to learn how some early writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses did get copied from the Restoration Movement

Actually, I have done quite a bit of research on this and wrote an article showing this. Now, if you are a Church of Christ type person, might get a bit offended by it and is not my intention.

I know this, the person who started the Christedelphians broke from the Disciples of Christ and the JW's broke from the Chrisedelphians though they believe practically the same doctrine.

As far as Mormons, Thomas Ridgely broke from the Campbell-Stone movement and if I recollect correctly, was one of th three witnesses of the Golden plates of the book of Mormon.

There is nothing original aout Mormonism. Yes, they copied from the Masonic Lodge. They copied all their beliefs on Christ, God and planets from Sweedenborgism. I have one bookmrkd site which shows which book that you can still buy on Amazon by a Canadian Sweedenborgist author where practically they copied him word for word. Sweedenborgism is a Gnostic religion. Also have a bookmark which shows another witness of the golden plates of Morminism sat under a Pastor who taught that the American Indians was "the lost tribe of Israel". I think there was even a book with the same teaching by that Pastor. I think that pastor was ether Plymouth Bretheren or perhaps a Presbytarian.

Actually, in my observations, all these cults started about the same time(in the 1800's) and in the same general regional area-Pennsylvania and New York.

All very interesting. Mybe I should write a book showing how the Mormons do not have one original beief.

Again, my intention is not to offend if you are a Church of Christ/Disciple of Christ believer. My intention is not to offend or get in a big debate about baptsm. I should also note, I am a Baptist and if yu know the Baptist belief on Baptism, you could see why I would not agree with the Church of Christ understanding of baptism. If you want to see the article(Did not put any resources, though I posess them, I have literally hundreds of bookmarks and need to start organizing them.) then let me know and I will send it to you. my email is daveme7@yahoo.com. Understand, if you are a Disciple/Curch of Christ believer or from a denomination that broke off from the DOC/COC, you will be offended. If you can read past some things on that, there is much that I think is insightful. Of course I am biased, I wrote it:)

I also have the same work on pre pub among the many things I have on prepub.

Again, I cannot emphasize enough, My intention is not to be offensive or start a big ole debate over baptism. I just do not know you very well and want to keep in the spirit of discussion with Logos related business.

As far as later followers of the Local Church. Just like when someone switches from Arminianism to Calvinism or in my case, went from a Pentecostal to a Baptist , many times people in their immaturity will take a radicalized position in seeing the light about something you previusly did not believe.

In the Local Church, since it has been a smaller body of believers-I think that might have an affect which would cause many to see them as a "Cult" based on bad behaivor as opposed to behaivor of a more mature Christian that went through that part of immaturity and has patiance with those going through that and those who do not agree 100% with their own doctrine. In fact, I am writing about my experiances in the Local Church and my understanding of their doctrine from a Baptist perspective. I do not know where I would publish it, but can say learning from them and some of the writings from Nee or Lee has benefited me a lot-and I mean very much of a blessing to me. I do not know if  can express how much of a blessing my time with them was, but it has done much for me in God breaking me of my pride and lead me to understand what true spirituality and sanctification is.

God bless

Dave Emme

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Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 12:17 AM

Matthew:

I know that it is not exactly what you are asking for, but I am in the process of producing PBB's of documents from the Stone-Campbell movement. Currently, I have

  • "The Christian System" and "The Sermon on the Law" by Alexander Campbell;
  • "Declaration and Address" by Thomas Campbell;
  • "Treatise on the Eldership" by J.W. McGarvey (his "Fourfold Gospel" and "Commentary on Acts" are already available from Logos);
  • "Our Position" by Isaac Errett;
  • "Address to the Churches in KY, OH & KY"; "Observations on Church Government to Which Has been Added the Last Will & Testament of the Springfield Presbytery" by Barton W. Stone;
  •  "Breakup of a Movement: The Sand Creek Documents"(the original "Sand Creek Declaration" and subsequent documents which led to the non-instrumental churches of Christ separating from the rest of the movement) by Daniel Sommers;
  • and I have selected works from the 1909 Centennial Convention Report. This one is a massive undertaking and I probably will only put into PBB format those articles that seem to have contemporary relevance. (Some are financial reports and lists of committee persons). 


You can find these for free download on my website: www.calhabig.com under the PBB page. (You have to have the PBB key to read them, but it is available in almost all of the Liibronix collections).

I am also still working on:"The Atonement: The Substance of Two Letters Written to a Friend," by Barton W. Stone and "The Works of Barton W. Stone"; J.W. McGarvey's "Commentary on Thessalonians, Corinthians, Galatians and Romans"; "Treatise on the Elder's Office" by William Ballentine. 

So many resources,so little time.  If you have thoughts or suggestions, leave them and I'll check back.   Or drop me a note at cal.habig@gmail.com

All the best.  

(Interesting discussion.  Sydney Rigdon's taking Restoration principles to Joseph Smith is well known and well documented, but the tie with JW's was news to me.)

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Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 12:23 AM

David:

It is Sydney Rigdon, not Thomas Ridgely.  

All the best,

Cal Habig

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John Nerdue | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 5:33 AM

The word "cult" has lost all meaning in our day and age. Anyone who disagrees with us is considered in a cult now. People who are King James Only are cult members, people who hold to the modern text and textual criticism are cult members. The Baptists who are Calvinists are in a cult. ect, ect, ect. The word is only used to inflame. It is intended to insult others so as soon as you use the word cult you are offending people because that is what the word is meant to do in our day.

Some quotes:

  • "...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion;
    and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect;
    but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer. A humorous quotation, but one that is uncomfortably close to reality.

  • "Cults are claimed to be deceitful. They are claimed to be harmful to their members. They are claimed to be undermining American values. Cults are claimed to be just about every bad thing in the book these days, and with the pervasive images of Manson and Jim Jones hanging over us, any group that is called a cult is immediately associated with those two people." J. Gordon Melton.

  • "My working definition of a cult is a group that you don't like, and I say that somewhat facetiously, but at the same time, in fact, that is my working definition of a cult. It is a group that somebody doesn't like. It is a derogatory term, and I have never seen it redeemed from the derogatory connotations that it picked up in the sociological literature in the 1930s." J. Gordon Melton.

  • "A cult is a church down the street from your church." Anon

  • http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 6:05 AM

James Chaisson:
The word "cult" has lost all meaning in our day and age

I agree that the word is used too often out of ignorance, simply to criticize and disparage others.  Sadly, so.

However, a "conceptual" (ie neither complete nor precise) definition that I've found to be useful focuses on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Denial of clear biblical attributes of Jesus means that a person cannot be saved, since it is by Him and through Him and unto Him that salvation is made possible and available to us.

So, a "cult", in my mind, is any "group" or "belief system" that does not accept and promote that Jesus is:

Fully God,  fully man yet without sin, alpha and omega, one with the Father and Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, of the house and lineage of David, the promised and anointed fullfillment of God's plan of salvation, physically died, separated from God when He became sin for us, physically resurrected and restored in complete communion with God having paid for and dispensed with our sin, our intercessor and advocate, our Lord and King, the Hope of Israel, etc ...

I add the "etc" since the list truly is incredibly long, as to who the Word says He is, and what He has done, is doing, and will do. 

I think it's fair to say that most groups that are "commonly labelled" as "cults" are ones that deny or supplant or replace or warp significant aspects of the truth about Jesus the Christ and King.

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John Nerdue | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 6:43 AM

So your definition rests on the identity of Jesus and nothing else? So for you Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Presbyterians, churches of Christ, Calvinists, King James Only folks, ect. Are not considered cult groups?

The problem is that everyone has a different definition for the word “cult” so you might mean it in one way but when you say or write it others have a different concept in mind and usually a very negative one.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 7:36 AM

CalvinHabig:
You can find these for free download on my website: www.calhabig.com under the PBB page. (You have to have the PBB key to read them, but it is available in almost all of the Liibronix collections).

Thank you Calvin,

I will surely be downloading from your site and encourage you to continue your work on these.  These points raised in this forum are exactly why I DO promote wider scope of Logos resources. If I had the money I would buy the feminist writings, the Pentecostal, the Luthern, the Methodist, the Catholic, even Karl Barth!Wink

I do however have a tender spot in my heart for the "Restoration Movement" leaders - with all their flaws & foibles.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 7:43 AM

David Emme:

Again, I cannot emphasize enough, My intention is not to be offensive or start a big ole debate over baptism. I just do not know you very well and want to keep in the spirit of discussion with Logos related business.

I'm not offended.     (FYI: I attend an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church.  They are more Fundamentalist than I. And I am more Independent than they.Smile)

To give you a hint; I love Francis Schaeffer, J.I.Packer, Bonhoeffer, Greg Harris among others.

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 7:57 AM

James Chaisson:
So your definition rests on the identity of Jesus and nothing else?

I find this definition to be useful, because it focuses on two central issues:

1. I believe that a person who knowledgably denies that collection of truth is not saved, therefore I need to witness to them, and consider that their minds are not being illumined by the Holy Spirit regarding non-salvation-related portions of Scripture.

2. I believe that someone who by faith truly accepts and agrees with that portion of truth is someone whom I can have biblical, Spirit-based fellowship with, EVEN THOUGH we might disagree on some other issues. 

For example, even though I most definitely do not agree with the KJV-only thinking, I most definitely DO have some wonderful brothers in the Lord who I fellowship with occasionally who do (mistakenly :~) take that position.  I have some precious brothers in Christ who are of the persuasion that instrumental music is not appropriate for their church services, whom I expect to see in glory, even though I quite enjoy various instruments being used as a part of worshipping God.  I have some Blood-bought brothers who believe that they should pray in "tongues of angels", which I do not concur with at any level, but who are a blessing to me to walk with in fellowship.

Where I have a problem, is when any such group or system's beliefs are purported to be a requirement for salvation.  THAT'S where I draw the line, and in my experience that all revolves around either WHO Jesus is, or WHAT He did and is doing for us, or both.  It often encompasses other areas of confusion/error as well ... but THAT issue - who He is and what is/has/will be doing - is at the heart of the two guidelines I mentioned earlier.

I think we need to remember that Jesus said that "whoever is not against US is for US", but also He said that "whoever is not for ME is against ME".  Jesus is the focus.  Jesus is .... words fail, for lack of space ... He should be the center of our lives, focus, hope and service.  Too often, we let other things "steal the throne" from Him. 

So, I use the term "cult" to help discriminate in those important aspects, thus it becomes a useful guide for me regarding fellowship with others, and witnessing to others.

These are things I've found useful in my own walk.  Others can feel free to define the word "cult" however they please ... I'm not positive, but I don't think it's a Biblical term anyhoo.

To Him be all glory!

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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 8:04 AM

JimDean:
James Chaisson:
So your definition rests on the identity of Jesus and nothing else?

...  (the confusion of a cult) revolves around WHO Jesus is, or WHAT He did and is doing for us, or both.

 

Small correction to prior post ... your phrase "the identity of Jesus and nothing else" is not what I was trying to describe ... it's part of it, though.  The other, just as important part, is WHAT HE DID, WHAT HE IS DOING, and WHAT HE WILL DO.  Those aspects are also essential parts of "my definition".  FWIW.

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Jim Dean

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 8:43 AM

JimDean:

I think it's fair to say that most groups that are "commonly labelled" as "cults" are ones that deny or supplant or replace or warp significant aspects of the truth about Jesus the Christ and King.

 

Brother JimDean,

Your definition of a "cult"  is the best functional definition I've see to date for my semantics. Your whole post above is right on target, clearly spoken, succinctly stated. That is why I said whether we call them cults or just denominations. Not that MY label matters but what they define themselves by.   "Who do YOU say that I am?"

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 8:55 AM

Matthew C Jones:
JimDean:
I think it's fair to say that most groups that are "commonly labelled" as "cults" are ones that deny or supplant or replace or warp significant aspects of the truth about Jesus the Christ and King.
 

Your definition of a "cult"  is the best functional definition I've see to date for my semantics. Your whole post above is right on target, clearly spoken, succinctly stated. That is why I said whether we call them cults or just denominations. Not that MY label matters but what they define themselves by.   "Who do YOU say that I am?"

 

I'm glad that it was helpful to you, and I agree that we get TOO hung up in labelling people and groups nowadays, and too often we "define ourselves" by some of those labels ... whether they be the church we attend or the particular collection of "isms" we are comfortable with.

It's not about man's views or words, but God's.  His, only.

It's about God-awareness:  1) aware of Him, who He is, and our relationship with Him;  2) aware of how He views everything that we encounter and live with, unfiltered by the veils of Satan's kosmos-system.

And that's all thru and unto JESUS.

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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

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David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 3:51 PM

Matthew C Jones:

I'm not offended.     (FYI: I attend an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church.  They are more Fundamentalist than I. And I am more Independent than they.Smile)

To give you a hint; I love Francis Schaeffer, J.I.Packer, Bonhoeffer, Greg Harris among others.

Thanks. Interestingly, I consider my self an Independent Fundamental Baptist, though not active in a church do to some of my disabilities recieved from getting wounded in Iraq. One disability, the Lord has been merciful and has taken away. Now, just need to overcome sleep problems. If everyone could pray for this to be healed in my life as well as a PTSD sympton of being fearful when in crowds. On this, I do not believe I fear any man in this world, yet, when in crowds, I will post haste leave.

As an IFB, I love Paul Washer,John Macarthur, appreciate many of the authors you mentioned as well as AW Pink, John Bunyan, and John Owen.

I happen to also consider myself a Calvinist and desire to be a missionary in the Philippines.

On the other hand, I am a King James Onyist, but feel it is sin to judge other Christian's salvation or quality of their faith. Most times, we are in sin in this. Does not prevent me from critiqing(?) other versions, but James White is not the devil nor is he a liar or deciever. I rather enjoy watching his videos on youtube and enjoy reading his books on Calvinism.

I am also one whom believes and agrees on Lordship Salvation.

Yet, knowing much about this on what I believe, most in IFB circles will say I am a heretick. I even see where some non Baptistic evangelicals will state that if you believe in Calvinism, you are a cultist. I have seen this happen.

Also, have experianced some anti KJV people accuse me of being in a cult. So in the end,I figure some one will be alling me a cultist, though I do not do the same ting to Arminians, Modern Version believers and who else ever disagrees with me and counts one of my beliefs a heresy.

This is where I really see some like the Local Church might just have a point with their brand of restorationism.

At some point in time, I have come to the understanding, I do not care what others think of me whether my stuff is considered heretical by one group or another.

I answer to my conscience in my studies of the word of God and only to the Lord. I cannot worry about what others think of my beliefs, though when it comes to raising money for missions-this will cost me big time.

My definition o fa cult is this-Another Bible, another Christ, and another way of salvation.

Usually I will try to take all three, but sometimes, if a group takes one-it can influance the other beiefs or one erroneous belief magnified above the others.

Yet, I usually try to keep it in those three definitions before I label someone as a cultist or in a cult.

Do me a favor and write me an email. First, because it is rare that I find someone in an IFB church which has no problem reading similar authors. On the other hand, I would really like to send you my article since we are both interested in restoration groups.

God bless

Dave Emme

 

 

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David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 2:39 PM
As a minister in the Christian Church (Restoration Movement) and graduate of a Restoration Bible college (now a University...Cincinnati Christian University), in other words one who has heard a lot about Campbell and Stone and one who grew up in KY (a hot bed of the Restoration Movement) I will say I am not offended at the cult comments. In all fairness though, every (which is not a word anyone used) "Christian-themed" cult out there copied an aspect from Jesus and His disciples. Campbell (both of them) and Stone (along with many others) were not the originators of their ideas of restorationism. I would love to see a Restoration Movement collection...history, doctrine, old school published debates, journals, papers...even the new stuff out there. all about Christ, David Buckham

all about Christ,

David Buckham

http://thinkspurlove.blogspot.com

 

 

Posts 422
Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 3:30 PM

I'm working on doing what I can, David!  I put another group up today.  Check out the Restoration Movement PBBs at www.calhabig.com/pbb.html.  Almost have Campbells Baptism: Its Antecedents and Consequents done. Hope to have it up in the next week.  Would love to know of others doing this so we do duplicate efforts.  (A Manhattan Christian College and Emmanuel School of Religion grad here).

BTW: with the (probably appropriate) testiness here recently about linking to other sites, it seems fair to link to my site since they are PBBs that Logos does not sell and they are free.  If such is not the case, please let me know.

 

Posts 422
Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 3:32 PM

That should have been "so we DON'T duplicate efforts"!

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