I feel a little misled

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This post has 184 Replies | 11 Followers

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:15 PM

Hi John,

Gotcha... and right you are. In my interactions with L4 so far, I'm finding LOTS of places where I have to learn how to work differently... ergo I've decided to leave L3 in place for awhile yet (& posted as a beta tester that the biggest competitor to L4 was going to be getting me to shut L3 off). But there's still enough there that I'm interested in hanging with them. For me, the move from L2 to L3 was the same scenario... but they were so faithful in getting & tuning L3 that I soon regretted my decision to stay with L2.

I can already see that L4 will be the same. And it's already more productive (at least for me) than L3 was when it was 1st released. I'd still encourage you to hang in there. They're honorable folks, & they'll make it right to you.

Blessings!

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:35 PM

JohnKaess:

I've just joined the group who feels misled.  Here are the main issues I have with the current Beta version of Logos 4:

1.  The missing features should have been PROMINENTLY pointed out with links and lists at least large enough to be noticed on EVERY page tauting the new Logos 4 release.

Yeah, it could have been more obvious. But, if you wanted to find out more, there was a link to "Click here for more information" that led to the information about what's new and what isn't. You obviously expected something and didn't get it. Most of what you're looking for is coming.

JohnKaess:
2.  Printing? Printing?  Who i  the world thought that printing was optional or not needed?  I don't care what I do in Logos, if I can't print it or smart tag or caopy/paste it into Word, its worthless!!!  and NONE of those "features" are available in Logos 4!

I never print from Logos. Wouldn't dream of it. I always copy/paste reformat in WordPerfect and then print. You can copy/paste into Word, who said you can't? Smart tags, aren't working now. They may come back. There was some discussion of this in the Beta process, I don't think it was resolved.

But more printing options are coming to L4 in the next few months.

JohnKaess:
3.  The HELP files.  To say they are poor is a major understatement.  I've been a Logos user since 2.0.  I'm pretty competent with Logos 3 and have been to Camp Logos.  What the Help file should have been at a bare minimum is: for any option, report, menu item, or process in Logos 3, if that is typed into the Logos 4 help file, it should tell you how to do the same or similar thing in Logos 4 or it should say there is no way to do that in Logos 4.  I can't begin to describe how many hours I've spend in the help files NOT getting answers to how to do Logos 3 things in Logos 4.

At first there was almost nothing in the help files, so I learned to use L4 without them. It really wasn't that difficult, and after a while you start to learn how to find things. But these forums are a great place to ask how-to questions. and there are enough beta testers here that at least one of us can probably answer any question. If the last few days are any indication, most questions are answered in a few minutes. The help file is still being developed as program items become solidified. Writing good help files is one of the most difficult parts of the process and the program has been a bit of a moving target for the last few months. So be patient, I'm sure they'll get better. In the mean time, these forums are the best help file you've got.

BTW, I've been a Logos user since 1.6.

JohnKaess:
4.  People keep saying "but Logos 3 still works" so everything is OK"  Really?  Where are the several hundred resources I paid for when I upgraded my Logos 3 Gold to Logos 4 Platinum?  Where is even a concise and complete LISTING of what those new files are?  Where is the automatic download to add those files to Logos 3?  I paid for a beta version of Logos 4 that is missing many key features of Logos 3, but hey, it's OK cause I have Logos 3 right?  NOOOOOO!  I have the old resources of Logos 3, NOT the Platinum resources I paid for.  I paid $425 to get the worst of both worlds.

A few of those resources are still in development. And that should have been clarified on the page, I think. But they'll be here shortly.

Further, nearly all of the new resources are being rebuilt for Logos 3. Bradley has said that they are working on an update script to put them into your LDLS resource folder and available to Libronix hopefully within a week or so. A bibliography report from L4 is still a ways off, according to the schedule. There's been a lot of talk on the forums for a need for it, so Logos may revise their plans for it.

There are very few features in L3 that are missing in L4. Many things L3 does L4 does differently, a few are still in the works, and a few will be dropped for lack of interest. If you want to be specific about what you want, maybe we can tell you if it can be done in L4 and how, or that it can't, or can't yet.

And yes, you can use L3 and L4; you can even use them at the same time. There are a couple of things I use L3 for yet (I've got some note files I need to access, once in a while). But for the most part I don't miss anything else about L3, and when I do use it now, it feels clunky.

So hang in there John. You'll get what you paid for, it'll just take some time for the full value of it to sink in, and for the final components to fall into place.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 614
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:40 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
I never print from Logos. Wouldn't dream of it. I always copy/paste reformat in WordPerfect and then print. You can copy/paste into Word, who said you can't?

You may not print - some do.  I know you understand that.  But there are areas of v4 that you cannot copy and paste to Word.  Example: From search result lists.  (See my earlier post.)

 

 

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:46 PM

DanFugett:
Before I get L4 I would like to see a feature map that takes me from a feature in 3 to that feature in r4.

http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

DanFugett:
Frankly, for a move this big where was the unveiling? How much thought went into this?

About 4 years of thought. :-) I'm sorry it came as a surprise, though that was intentional. For many reasons we decided to try an "Apple style" unveiling rather than our previous "Microsoft style" year-long public betas.

We're working very hard to get more features into the product, and appreciate the feedback we're getting from all of you. It's good, because sometimes we forget your priorities and ours are different. I, for example, think Logos 4 is "all engine", because I know how much work we did to rewrite the guts. And I (almost) live in a "post-printing-world". I'm always surprised to hear how important it is to some people, since I don't happen to do it much. (If I say it's a green, eco-friendly feature to not have printing, does that help? <smile>) We need to be reminded what's important to you, so we can keep it high on the list.

 

Posts 22
Graceman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:49 PM

Wow, I think there is a need to step back a bit and get a full perspective on L4.

It will enable more people to get deeper into the word of God and the literature that supports the adventure of exploring the word than L3. The basic approach was a redesign to enable an easier entry into the resources available without having to be a techno savvy person and to bring advanced bible study on the computer to the common person rather than just the "Christian geek". I think L4 has done that. Where it has to grow is adding the upper story features that those who have used the previous versions of Logos miss.

L4 should have a wider appeal than the versions that have gone before it. More people will use it and find it useful. This will make the product stronger and be better for all of its users in the long run.

Like many other beta testers, I found L4 an adjustment. In fact, it wasn't until one night when some of my input devices didn't work that I discovered how different the new version was from the old. I discovered how to use the software in some new and exciting ways. From that point forward, I saw the potential the new format had and have not gone back to the L3, except for smart tags and some other features. I say this to point out that sometimes it harder to unlearn to learn than it is to just learn something without previous experience. So don't give up, and for some of the critics be patient, and see the big picture. The potential here is for a tool that could change many many lives because of the access they can have to a mature level of study in God's word. The printing press made the word of God available to the masses. L4 could have the same type of impact on the church of Jesus Christ. This is my prayer!

IMHO,

Pastor Chris McFarland

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:49 PM

John Fugh, Jr.:
You may not print - some do.  I know you understand that.  But there are areas of v4 that you cannot copy and paste to Word.  Example: From search result lists.  (See my earlier post.)

Oh, I know people do print. John's wording seemed to suggest that "without printing L4 is useless." In fact he said, "Who in the world thought that printing was optional or not needed?" Well, I'm not part of the development team, but I don't think it's necessary -- at least not for me. But I've heard about people wanting to print whole books from Logos. I know the desire is there, but I just can't imagine doing it myself.

I do agree that there are times to save search results. In L3 we used verse lists for that. Well, I don't know what you did, that's what I did. Verse lists are coming back, by request, so we should be able to get most of this back.

But mostly I saw John's post and saw that no one really responded to it. So I decided to give it a go. There's another post of his that no one responded to as well. I may tackle that one, but right now I'm waiting to see what he might have to say about my responses to him in his original post.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:51 PM

While this is not a major concern of mine at least not yet, I do appreciate the time you are taking to monitor the forums. Your customers appreciate it. How many ceo's do you know who answer customer questions on forums and news groups?

Lynden Williams Communications

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 3:08 AM

John,

Yes...I feel your pain..I REALLY REALLY want that functionality...but I know it's coming so I'm content to wait...to paste a jpg in word and mark that up...it's not a perm solution but it's fine for me for now. And as Richard pointed out....this functionality didn't exist in V3 did it?

the "send to verse list" was a V3 workaround instead of "print search results" right?

As to your comment about typing in greek....did you see Georges comment about downloading the Greek/Hewbrew keyboards? I've done that since the beginning...I'm used to it...though I've now done it both ways...it can be done painlessly.

 

PS: And as Bob P has said numerous times; the options were: Get the software out with the features that 90% of the userbase uses...OR wait 6 months to put in the features that 10% or less of the users want...it's a lose lose for Logos...SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy no matter how you slice it.

 

Me? I'm happy.

My system works like a charm, its' fast and responsive, and the things I miss...JUST LIKE IN V3 I make a work around...

 

You always have the option to get a refund, and then wait until next year and repurchase with the options now functional that you see as most important.

 

bob

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 4:44 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
So hang in there John. You'll get what you paid for, it'll just take some time for the full value of it to sink in, and for the final components to fall into place.

Richard, I'm amazed at how you can produce such lengthy, well-reasoned articles when I struggle to produce a paragraph, especially with the volume of issues that have arisen since Release. 

Very well done,

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 4:47 AM

Dave,

Although I do agree with you that Richard has the  gift... :)

I have to be honest that I've also had the same attitude toward many of your posts...usually after I realize just how astute you were in writing a certain post I curl up in a fetal position and turn Logos off....Confused

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 5:29 AM

Ahh, Bob. It's past midnight here and I almost curled up with laughter at your remark!

blessings,

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 5:37 AM

Philip Spitzer:
I truly do understand where you are coming from here. We beta testers had the advantage of getting the software before we plopped down money, thus, we had nothing to loss. You on the other hand do. There is no doubt that the software is unfinished. There are some things that should be that are not, such as correct meta-data. I personally would not go so far as to call it a beta-ish program, but I could understand someone that does.

I would go so far as to call it a beta since I believe it still is a beta.  Previously it was a private beta but now is a public beta.  Yes, there is still much work to be completed, but that is the nature of betas.  Don't spend your time complaining "I don't like the way it works", but rather send in specific comments such as "the morphology search doesn't work properly" (if you feel it doesn't).  How else can they improve the product.  When you go to the doctor you don't simply say, "I feel sick" then let him figure out what your problem is.  Instead you say "I've been coughing and sneezing and running a fever" or "I fell and hurt my arm.  I think it's broken."  So, speak up, but be specific.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 5:40 AM

George Somsel:
So, speak up, but be specific.

by all means speak up. But speak up again in 3 weeks. Right now Logos is really trying to listen but there is a WHOLE lot to hear.

Posts 143
iamk | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 6:13 AM

George,

calling L4 a public beta that we purchased into actually helps me. I give up. It's a public beta. We are testing it. I will need to reinstall L3 alongside L4 to have most of the functionality. I guess it won't do any good to go "Israel" and start grumbling. :)

 

 

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 6:22 AM

JohnKaess:
2.  Printing? Printing?  Who i  the world thought that printing was optional or not needed?  I don't care what I do in Logos, if I can't print it or smart tag or caopy/paste it into Word, its worthless!!!  and NONE of those "features" are available in Logos 4!

I use Logos every day. I use it since 1996. It is my bread and butter. However I have never used printing option. Please, don't be so sure your way of seeing things is the only one. I do copy and paste all the time to both One Note or to MS Word. I do not see any difficulty with that. I don't even print my sermon notes any more, I preach and teach from my laptop. I print only when I do weddings and funerals :-)

Logos 4 is a powerful engine with a great potential. It is very wise, I think, to have a clean powerful engine and add the features customers feel they need the most, not all the tweaking stuff 1% of users would possibly use. IMHO Logos did very good decision and I really appreciate their bold innovative approach. I believe Logos 4 is a major break through in Bible Study Software, combining the powerful tools with a very simple looking and well thought UI. Good enough for both a scholar and a pastor who knows only how to open his laptop and press go...

Be patient John. You will see Logos grow as months go. And, by the way, who said you are not able to use your Platinum stuff in Logos 3? I do... I just downloaded books I really like from the logos.com and they work perfect.

Bohuslav

Posts 3883
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 6:24 AM

Philip Spitzer:
Trust me, George isn't overly caring about how you feel :-)

Oh, I do know that.  I have been around enough to see George in action.  I dropped out of the forums for awhile (still like news groups better); but with L4, I had to go where the help is found.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

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Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 6:26 AM

KevinJones:

 I guess it won't do any good to go "Israel" and start grumbling. :)

I'll have to remember that phrase.

It reminded me of one of my favorite quotes.

John R. W. Stott said "Grumbling--Israel's besetting sin--is serious because it is a sign of unbelief." (Baptism and Fullness of the Holy Spirit, IVP)

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 7:48 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I've seen note importing working internally; we're days away from having the code done for notes and highlighting, then we'll do testing and then deploy it.

The plan is to import whole note files, preserving their names. So there won't be conflict with anything you do in Logos 4 now.

Highlighting won't overwrite your highlights on a book, but will merge into it. It's possible you could import a highlight "on top of" one you makein Logos 4, but they'd both be there, the way you can manually overlap them now.

Thanks for listening and it sounds like you took it all the way.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 10:05 AM

KevinJones:
I guess it won't do any good to go "Israel"
Big Smile I am going to have to start using that one!  LOL

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 11:34 AM

Edwin Bowden:

KevinJones:

 I guess it won't do any good to go "Israel" and start grumbling. :)

 

I'll have to remember that phrase.

It reminded me of one of my favorite quotes.

John R. W. Stott said "Grumbling--Israel's besetting sin--is serious because it is a sign of unbelief." (Baptism and Fullness of the Holy Spirit, IVP)

 

Stott's quote is exactly what came to my mind, too. The grumbling seems to have offended God more than everything else Israel did.

No need to "go Israel" on this. Manna from Heaven & we complain?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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