I feel a little misled

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This post has 184 Replies | 11 Followers

Posts 3
Barbara Silverstein | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:06 PM

I called customer support today with my list of missing or compromised features, and spend 90 minutes waiting and talking to someone who wasn't able to help. i was pretty peeved, so i was kicked upstairs and was able to speak with Dan Pritchett amazingly enough. I came away from that conversation with this information: Logos 4 isn't really complete yet. They haven't really made that clear to the public. They are really working hard on it. Right now, the available support staff isn't fully trained to answer the tougher questions beyond installation and other basic questions. The web site also isn't fully up to date to support the new Logos. Currently, the best source of support are the YouTube videos.

Before I spoke with Dan, I was ready to toss in the towel on L4 as a waste of my money and time. However, a simple honest answer from him, that the product is still being refined, but a lot of effort is going into this, put this into perspective, and I'm now willing to wait a little longer for the product to get into shape.

My plea is to please me more honest with the public, even if it means a bit of delayed revenue. If others are like me, this is a loyal consumer base.

 

Barbara Silverstein

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:12 PM

KevinJones:

Not to mention:  cannot even use L4 in VMware on my macbook bc it's different from L3. It is so sluggish it won't even run. I would have liked to known that before purchasing and making the switch as well.

I'm using L4 on VMware 3 with XP. I used it about three hours today and it ran as well or if not better than L3 (partly because of improvements in VMware I think). If you want to swap settings, we might be able to improve your performance. Just email me at donovan (at) dmpnet.org

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:13 PM

DanFugett:
I didnt go back and look at it but the demo mentions printing withot volunteering printing doesnt even exist.   Now, I gave myself about a week to gauge my response but in marketing we have a name for that and it isnt a pretty one.

Dan, with all respect... your judgment is not correct. There is printing in Logos 4 in some cases. More is coming but I do not see any problem if promo already uses the printing if you really can print (graphics for instance), send to Power Point etc.

Bohuslav

Posts 6
Dan Fugett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:19 PM

Yes.

I applaus the honesty and accepting responsibility too.

Also, I agree that the more honesty now will get the already loyal customers over this little blip.  Ok, maybe this time Logos dropped the ball and rushed to market.  The kind of mature responsible handling that you are skeaking of keeps loyalty in tact.

Dan Fugett

Posts 726
Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:28 PM

DanFugett:

Using printing again as an example, the sales demo praises the new printing functionality, which doesnt even exist. I didnt go back and look at it but the demo mentions printing withot volunteering printing doesnt even exist.   Now, I gave myself about a week to gauge my response but in marketing we have a name for that and it isnt a pretty one.

Dan Fugett

Dan,

I've viewed the opening promo video and the 5 pages of features and no where does it say printing is possible, let alone praise it - as far as I can see. I think your desire to have printing made you assume that they were saying that.

I understand your frustration, but don't blame them for saying something they didn't

If I'm wrong, I apologize right now. But I'd like to see where it is and how strongly it is "praised."

Chris

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:35 PM

Bob P:
Sure, it's gotten a little more flexible and powerful, but for the most part the criticisms justly leveled against it in 1984 are still true. It's a closed system that simplifies things. You're constrained to one hardware vendor. What's changed isn't the Mac, it's the world. Computers aren't huge investments by people who really need or like technology. They're toasters; common household appliances used by everyone.

Agreed. The vast majority of people I talk to who use a computer, just want it to work and if necessary are willing to pay extra for it to do so. I think while it is a frustration to not be able to do things like change and manage my resource directory for L4, the majority of people will be glad if the current strategy just manages things for them. The big improvement I see is that don't have to worry any longer about keeping download purchases any more because the system will just download/update them if you need them. This is progress!

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:39 PM

BarbaraSilverstein:

I called customer support today with my list of missing or compromised features, and spend 90 minutes waiting and talking to someone who wasn't able to help. i was pretty peeved, so i was kicked upstairs and was able to speak with Dan Pritchett amazingly enough. I came away from that conversation with this information: Logos 4 isn't really complete yet. They haven't really made that clear to the public. They are really working hard on it. Right now, the available support staff isn't fully trained to answer the tougher questions beyond installation and other basic questions. The web site also isn't fully up to date to support the new Logos. Currently, the best source of support are the YouTube videos.

Before I spoke with Dan, I was ready to toss in the towel on L4 as a waste of my money and time. However, a simple honest answer from him, that the product is still being refined, but a lot of effort is going into this, put this into perspective, and I'm now willing to wait a little longer for the product to get into shape.

My plea is to please me more honest with the public, even if it means a bit of delayed revenue. If others are like me, this is a loyal consumer base.

 

Barbara Silverstein

Hi Barbara,

I'm glad you pursued the issue(s) with Logos and that you were able to talk to Dan Pritchett.  I'm coming from a different set of circumstances than you are; I was a beta tester and had to rely very totally on the beta testing forum for all my information about v.4.  So, we had Bob Pritchett, and several programmers/techsupport giving us information not only about the different beta versions released but also about the kinds of things that you mention, e.g. that L4 was going to be released and there would be things missing that would be added.  It took me almost a month to adjust to all the changes and finally, to accept them and even love L4.

It sounds like the worst part was not being given the whole story before you purchased the upgrade.  And it also sounds like communicating directly with Logos helped you.  I'm glad you posted your story and have had a chance to read what all of us have gone through.  I don't think CHANGE has been easy for anyone, including all of Logos staff. 

I really hope you like L4.  The videos really go a long way towards becoming acclimated to the program.  God Bless!

 

 

 

Posts 12
Timothy J. Minter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:53 PM

I, too, am annoyed that the Mac engine I paid for is now orphaned.  I really think that Logos should consider subtracting the amount we paid for the Mac engine from the cost of any upgrade.

Posts 143
iamk | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 6:56 PM

Yes I agree. It never got off the ground. 

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:42 AM

I agree with John on the printing issue. Print and/or Copy and paste is it seems impossible once you have collected quotes and refs in either clippings or notes. Yes, you can copy and paste your own written note (you could have saved yourself the bother and kept Word open and typed the note there) but you cannot copy the quotes and the notes together. So now you have to copy the quote from the book, write a note so its connected in Logos 4, copy the note aswell, paste it to the quote in word. This is very poor. Do you know of any other program for research that has no copy/paste, export or printing capacity in this way? A program which actually prevents you from printing, copying and pasting and exporting documents you have created within the program? Logos really think printing and export and copy/paste are insignificant parts of a research program? This is astonishing to me. Its like saying why not upgrade from two eyes to just the one?

What is concerning is the apparent lack of understanding that it IS important to the program. To say, "its coming" in that context is also concerning to me. WHAT is coming? Will I be able to print and export/copy and paste to the same degree as in previous versions? It is too late, I didnt notice the big sign on the site telling me that I would not be able to print from the program anymore and I went ahead and bought it...... so now I shall just have to wait and hope that someone working for Logos might use the program something like the way I used too....

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:49 AM

Edward...

Breath...in....out....in...out...

You have two options:

1.) Get a refund and when printing capability is returned to v4...evaluate it in light of your needs and either purchase, or not....

2.) copy/paste to a 3rd party program; I use Onenote....others use other things.

 

Nobody at Logos said that printing wasn't important....not once.

They just said that it's less important FOR MANY PEOPLE...and there are a lot on this forum that don't print right from logos...

I never have.

You are free to choose #1 or #2....

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 112
BS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 7:03 AM

Robert Pavich:

Breath...in....out....in...out...

You have two options:

1.) Get a refund and when printing capability is returned to v4...evaluate it in light of your needs and either purchase, or not....

2.) copy/paste to a 3rd party program; I use Onenote....others use other things.

You are free to choose #1 or #2....

I think this thread is not about what options Edward or the thread author have; rather, it's about the choices Logos has made and the options Logos has from this point forward.  Edward's options are so obvious it's almost insulting to list them for him.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 7:11 AM

Bryan Smith:
Edward's options are so obvious it's almost insulting to list them for him.

 

NO..what's insulting is that Edward sits here and complains about something that Logos is working on and he can do nothing about it....

He throws out superlatives like: "This is astonishing to me." and "Its like saying why not upgrade from two eyes to just the one?" and "the apparent lack of understanding that it IS important to the program."

 

AND THEN he ends with the fatalistic:

"It is too late, I didnt notice the big sign on the site telling me that I would not be able to print from the program anymore and I went ahead and bought it...... so now I shall just have to wait and hope that someone working for Logos might use the program something like the way I used too...."

 

As if there are no other options than complain about what he doesn't have and wants.....

 

I was pointing that he HAS options...he may not like them...they may be temporary...but they are more than just "IT'S TOO LATE"

 

And PS: Logos made this choice based on market research, usage reports, and 4 years of planning....Edward (like the rest of us) is going by what HE LIKES BEST...so the remark that "Logos has an apparent lack of understanding..." is just silly....

 

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3810
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 8:29 AM

Robert Pavich:
2.) copy/paste to a 3rd party program; I use Onenote....others use other things.

Notes have been a problem for several years. On the old WIKI I compiled a list of programs that LOGOS users recommended as alternatives to Notes. Here is that list:

You might want to take a look at the titles listed on the old WIKI:  

* TheJournal: http://www.davidrm.com/thejournal/
* TexNotesPro4: http://www.gemx.com
* MSOneNote: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010858031033.aspx
* ScholarsAid: http://www.scholarsaid.com
* InfoSelect: http://www.miclog.com/is/index.shtml
* MyBase: http://www.wjjsoft.com/
* GoBinder: http://www.gobinder.com/gobinder2005.aspx
* InfoTree2004 http://www.nextword.com/InfoTree2004.htm
* WhizFolders http://www.whizfolders.com
* ContentSaver http://www.macropool.com/en/index.html
* Libronix Notes

These tools have been recommended by several of the participants on the news groups as alternatives to the Notes provided by LIBRONIX. My personal favorite is The Journal, but each person is looking for their favorite set of features, so you might prefer something else.

I have not verified all the links - though they worked when I added them to the WIKI. I use both One Note from Microsoft and TheJournal  from David Michael. TheJournal can link back to LOGOS, though LOGOS cannot, at this point, link back to TheJournal. The same is true for One Note.

Perhaps those who use the other programs could post some short comments as well.

I have reposted this list in the past, but with the many new users in the forums, it might be helpful to take another look at the available options.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 8:43 AM

Robert Pavich:

Nobody at Logos said that printing wasn't important....not once.

They just said that it's less important FOR MANY PEOPLE...and there are a lot on this forum that don't print right from logos...

I never have.

You are right Robert. I have never printed anything from Logos. Logos is my bread and butter for many years. All my sermons and teaching is prepared on Logos, exported to the MS Word and... seldom printed since I preach and teach from the laptop. So, even printing would be available in Logos, I have no use for that.

And, according to the Logos research (mentioned on this forum by Bob), I am not so much unique in that.

Bohuslav

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 8:46 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

You are right Robert. I have never printed anything from Logos. Logos is my bread and butter for many years. All my sermons and teaching is prepared on Logos, exported to the MS Word and... seldom printed since I preach and teach from the laptop. So, even printing would be available in Logos, I have no use for that.

And, according to the Logos research (mentioned on this forum by Bob), I am not so much unique in that.

Ditto. rarely print from Logos (except verse lists). I always copy and paste to word so I can format it with margins, font sizes, etc. I will concede though that the lack of ability to copy and paste search results into Word at present does bump it up the "I wish I could" list.

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 9:29 AM

I doubt it is any consolation, but Logos for Mac did not have printing until several releases later... I think it was 1.2 actually. There was a similar tone voiced by some users at that time.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 9:36 AM

Philip Spitzer:

Bohuslav Wojnar:

You are right Robert. I have never printed anything from Logos. Logos is my bread and butter for many years. All my sermons and teaching is prepared on Logos, exported to the MS Word and... seldom printed since I preach and teach from the laptop. So, even printing would be available in Logos, I have no use for that.

And, according to the Logos research (mentioned on this forum by Bob), I am not so much unique in that.

Ditto. rarely print from Logos (except verse lists). I always copy and paste to word so I can format it with margins, font sizes, etc. I will concede though that the lack of ability to copy and paste search results into Word at present does bump it up the "I wish I could" list.

I think the last time I printed from Logos was back in 2000 though even then I might have copied it to Word to print out since I wanted the entire Didache for a group at church.  The thing that puzzles me is why someone would be a whiney cry-baby about temporarily not being able to print from L4 when it is possible to simply print from L3.  It sounds like kvetching simply for the sake of kvetching.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 9:38 AM

George Somsel:
The thing that puzzles me is why someone would be a whiney cry-baby

And his name shall be called George the blunt.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 9:44 AM

Philip Spitzer:

Ditto. rarely print from Logos (except verse lists). I always copy and paste to word so I can format it with margins, font sizes, etc. I will concede though that the lack of ability to copy and paste search results into Word at present does bump it up the "I wish I could" list.

Although I would like the capability to print, I have never printed directly from Logos. I mostly use OneNote and when needing to format a paper research style, I use cut & paste Word. I'm still playing with Version 4 so it's no big deal at the moment.    It WOULD be a big deal if I were a seminary student writing papers.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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