OS X Lion, Open CL and Logos 4

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Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jul 11 2011 1:30 PM

This is a question to tech support. Is Logos 4 going to take advantage of Open CL in OS/X Lion.

My understanding is that if an application does and your graphics card supports Open CL you can expect significant graphics performance benefits in the application.

I am setting up for 3 monitors and am deciding on a second graphics card. The selection I make will in part be determined by the response I get to this query.

 

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 11 2011 2:10 PM

OpenCL is a technology for doing parallelizable, computationally intensive tasks (not necessarily related to graphics). While it is possible to run OpenCL computations on a video card, it doesn't make sense for all computations. However, our use (or non-use) of the feature will not have a significant effect on graphics performance.

I don't have any comment right now about what technologies we may be planning to adopt in future versions of Logos Bible Software.

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Posts 490
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 11 2011 3:07 PM

David Mitchell:

OpenCL is a technology for doing parallelizable, computationally intensive tasks (not necessarily related to graphics). While it is possible to run OpenCL computations on a video card, it doesn't make sense for all computations. However, our use (or non-use) of the feature will not have a significant effect on graphics performance.

I don't have any comment right now about what technologies we may be planning to adopt in future versions of Logos Bible Software.

Thanks David -

Posts 53
Daniel Bergquist | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 12 2011 6:50 PM

I would like to expand on David's comment. (WARNING! fairly technical content ahead!)

 

OpenCL (first introduced in 10.6 Snow Leopard) is geared towards highly parallelizable and computationally intensive mathematical tasks. This makes it great for many scientific, graphic and video/audio processing tasks. Weather and other physics applications are well suited, as are video compression, image manipulation and anything making heavy use of linear algebra.

 

It is not well suited to text oriented systems such as Logos. OS X already does a lot of UI graphics processing on the graphics card through the standard UI methods.

 

Based on what is publicly known about Lion, there's not a lot of new performance oriented tech in it. Snow Leopard was chock full of new tech for performance such as OpenCL and Grand Central Dispatch.

 

Grand Central Dispatch makes it a lot easier for programmers to utilize the extra cores in your CPU. This is a technology that Logos could use to make some speed improvements for things that can be parallelized at a higher level (in computing, low level means you have to pay attention to detail, high level means you talk about larger concepts. Eg compare letters 'a' and 'b' is a low level task while search documents x,y,z for 'foo' is high level task which would entail the low level task of comparing letters) or things that can be done in the background.

 

There is a new technology in Lion called ARC that could give an overall speed improvement as well as reduce memory usage and some types of crashes. http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2011/06/20/p2571 has details on what that is.

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Posts 490
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 12 2011 7:39 PM

I believe that some of the development frameworks that the Logos Application team uses precludes them from basic things like using over 4 gig of RAM and more than 4 Cores even if they structured the code for greater course grain parallelism.

From the end user perspective the UI is slow relative the the computing and GPU resources available on the machine I operate from. I suspect that part of that is due to the cross platform API's that have been chosen to support both Windows and OS/X. Probably out of the sphere of influence and control of the Logos Team.

Posts 53
Daniel Bergquist | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 12 2011 8:18 PM

Unless I am mistaken, the UI is native to OS X and the under the hood stuff uses the cross-platform Mono framework.

An app's UI code can be easily made sluggish either through drawing complex custom UI elements (or even simple ones) too often, creating and destroying too many objects while working with the UI, refreshing content too often or through tying up the main thread with non UI code. There's probably other ways too, but these are the main causes.

I am not familiar with Mono's limitations or even if there is a 64bit OS X version of the framework. If the limitations you mention are present, there's ways around those too.

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Daniel Bergquist | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 12 2011 8:20 PM

I should add, it's easy to armchair engineer, without the pressures of actually running a software projects. ;-)

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Posts 490
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 12 2011 9:48 PM

Daniel Bergquist:

I should add, it's easy to armchair engineer, without the pressures of actually running a software projects. ;-)

I have managed global software projects  and have set up full benchmarking labs for three tier applications across Mainframes, Massively parallel Unix Systems and distributed windows architecture  for manufacturing, ERP and state of the art CAD/CAM solutions for a global Fortune 100 company, as well as developed cross platform/cross chip architecture compiler tools.

One of my projects I architected resulted in conference speaking, articles, etc. 

It just so happens I have experience  -  But I digress - :)

The bottom line is project management discipline. More importantly executive support at the top of the corporation  for the mantra - "If you can't manage it, then don't deploy it"

Posts 53
Daniel Bergquist | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 12 2011 11:41 PM

 

Can't seem to sleep tonight....

I was more referring to my own armchair engineering. Good to see that I'm in the company of fellow geeks. :-)

I'm a Mac software developer myself. I can point at a number of places at work where the software or development process needs work. As you probably know, getting things changed in the face of all the various business and cultural pressures can sometimes be easier said than done.

 

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Darren Paul Wright | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 13 2011 2:08 AM

You've probably heard this before, but we're hiring :) http://www.jointheawesome.com/

User Interface Designer - Logos Bible Software

Posts 53
Daniel Bergquist | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 13 2011 5:32 PM

Yeah, I just wouldn't be up for leaving Lincoln. ;-)

I like it here and really enjoy my current job, so I'm not really looking for a change. Now if I were able to work from here or in the region and a company approached me, I would certainly entertain such an opportunity.

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Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 14 2011 8:53 AM

Daniel Bergquist:
Yeah, I just wouldn't be up for leaving Lincoln. ;-)

Probably because you haven't yet been to Bellingham…

Just sayin'

David Mitchell
Development Lead
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Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 17 2011 7:15 AM

Daniel Bergquist:

Unless I am mistaken, the UI is native to OS X and the under the hood stuff uses the cross-platform Mono framework.

An app's UI code can be easily made sluggish either through drawing complex custom UI elements (or even simple ones) too often, creating and destroying too many objects while working with the UI, refreshing content too often or through tying up the main thread with non UI code. There's probably other ways too, but these are the main causes.

I am not familiar with Mono's limitations or even if there is a 64bit OS X version of the framework. If the limitations you mention are present, there's ways around those too.

L4M is, I think it is fairly broadly accepted, held back/hamstrung by Mono. If one looks at an app like L4M (& L4W) there would be a lot of heavy lifting going on with computation over what to display (indexed searches, cross reference of book titles/words, text analysis) before it gets to the how to display (the UI). I believe the 'what' depends on Mono which is overdue for revision, and is itself still based on a couple of versions old .NET.  Strongly doubt is 64 bit. Unfortunately don't believe the extra horsepower capabilities in OS X (Grand Central) etc. can be used in L4M back-end as the 'engine' is the closed box Mono/.NET running DLLs - no doubt impervious to improvement. 

The L4M UI uses some non-standard UI components (?and programming methods?) to make it look and act close to the Windows version. On the UI side there is no reason that once content (data) is available that the screen can't be drawn very quickly. Obviously many other 'big' OS X apps can do it.

I'm sure the L4M team are doing all they can to improve things, you sure you don't want to move to Bellingham Wink

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 18 2011 10:01 AM

Patrick S.:
L4M is, I think it is fairly broadly accepted, held back/hamstrung by Mono.

You are the only person I know who routinely makes this assertion. As I've indicated before, your concerns have little basis in fact. Please either stop making these claims or send us a résumé so that you can have the opportunity to create an informed opinion.

Patrick S.:
I believe the 'what' depends on Mono which is overdue for revision, and is itself still based on a couple of versions old .NET.

The version of .net we use has more to do with issues in WPF 4 (on Windows) than it does on Mono.

Patrick S.:
Strongly doubt is 64 bit.

This is something I'm working on. It is likely that the greatest amount of effort will be spent in our resource display code, which is (and always has been) native code.

Patrick S.:
Unfortunately don't believe the extra horsepower capabilities in OS X (Grand Central) etc. can be used in L4M back-end as the 'engine' is the closed box Mono/.NET running DLLs - no doubt impervious to improvement.

This is untrue. It is quite simple to use Grand Central Dispatch from Logos 4. The primary reason that we have not done so is that we still support Leopard, which does not have Grand Central Dispatch. Approximately 7% of our active Mac users are on Leopard. When a considerable number of them have upgraded, we'll consider dropping support and using newer technologies.

Patrick S.:
On the UI side there is no reason that once content (data) is available that the screen can't be drawn very quickly.

In theory, this is true. In practice, the situation is complex. Send us a résumé, and I'll tell you all about it Smile.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 18 2011 10:45 AM

David Mitchell:

Approximately 7% of our active Mac users are on Leopard. When a considerable number of them have upgraded, we'll consider dropping support and using newer technologies.

At $30, hopefully all 7% will upgrade this month!

 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 490
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 18 2011 11:02 AM

In an effort to speed up Logos 4 and give the community some options , I've added dual computers and a Cosworth Supercharger.

 

Works Great  but a little noisy - The water cooling was the key !!

 

Wink

 

Posts 490
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 18 2011 11:26 AM

David:

Re: Grand Central Dispatch

Clearly you can do conditional code depending on the os version at runtime and so on.

Would this be a possible path for Logos 4?

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 18 2011 12:23 PM

alabama24:

At $30, hopefully all 7% will upgrade this month!

Except to get Lion you have to have Snow Leopard first

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 18 2011 12:34 PM

Larry Good:
Clearly you can do conditional code depending on the os version at runtime and so on.

Would this be a possible path for Logos 4?

While technically feasible, it is not an attractive option, as it creates significantly increases the burden on testing, etc.

 

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 490
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 18 2011 12:47 PM

David,

Thanks for the reply on this

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