Here we go again...part 2...

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 9:51 AM

MJD:

Your post is just a RANT!

I for one am deeply appreciative of all Pre-Pub special offers Logos is willing to offer.  BRING ON TONS OF BOOKS AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

Rant? Maybe(...maybe not). "Just"? Hardly.

But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 10:02 AM

Ted Hans:
If Logos were to publish every resources at retail value or the Pre-Pub price were fixed after production, for the most part I don't think we would be having this conversation.
  I agree, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Baker Academic made a decision to place their new titles in Pre-Pub at the planned retail selling price. (example: Theology of the New Testament by Schnelle, Udo)  At first there was an outcry of  "Where is the incentive to pre-order?" Then we all realized we would not miss out on great deals by delaying purchase until after publication.  I do not know how that is working out for Baker financially. There are a dozen of their books I want but my money is  tied up on other Pre-Pubs that I know will increase in price.

There are cultural differences among us that include purchasing habits. Some people walk into a store and pay the "asking" price. Some never pay retail. Some enjoy the back & forth of negotiating. Some respond to sales. Some like clipping coupons. And most of us will find some of these forms distasteful.

I like the Pre-Pub program and I really like the Community Pricing program. (I got a CP title for $9 that now retails for $199.) But when a collection goes from $150 to $800, it disappears off my radar.

In the next four weeks I have over $1000 of Pre-Pubs shipping. That is after I had pared the list down by cancelling others I wanted. There are another $2555 in Pre-Pubs shipping this month that would be really nice to have. It is not Logos' fault I like so many different resources. I just wish we could secure those great resources at the great prices.


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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 10:24 AM

David Paul:

But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know. 

I agree David. How does this help Logos if those who are not willing to part with so much of their cash are saying bring it on when they will not make many purchases. Those who want to make a purchase (part with their cash) should be given due consideration as to how realistic it is to be faced with large volumes of items all at once. Since this does not affect the 'bring it on folks' that much i fail to see much substance in their argument.

Ted

 

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 10:32 AM

David Paul:

MJD:

Your post is just a RANT!

I for one am deeply appreciative of all Pre-Pub special offers Logos is willing to offer.  BRING ON TONS OF BOOKS AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

 

Rant? Maybe(...maybe not). "Just"? Hardly.

But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know. 

I am unsure how this relates to the situation. I have made significant purchases this year  (2011) in Logos books... well over $10,000 closer to $20,000.   If Logos is willing to offer a Pre-Pub Special, I find this gracious on their part.  You are acting as if they have an obligation to make sure everyone should be able to afford the special offer, before they extended it.  This makes no sense to me...Confused

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Pat Flanakin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 10:37 AM

I guess the answer is be as good a steward with what money the Lord has provided you, buy what you can at the best deal you can get negotiating with Logos and leave the rest to Him.

I am not sure the forum is the best forum to lay this out...perhaps a discussion with a sales manager, or Mr. Pritchett himself would better serve your seeking to negotiate timing of prepub release.

Posts 191
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 11:00 AM

Ted Hans:
I agree David. How does this help Logos if those who are not willing to part with so much of their cash are saying bring it on when they will not make many purchases. Those who want to make a purchase (part with their cash) should be given due consideration as to how realistic it is to be faced with large volumes of items all at once. Since this does not affect the 'bring it on folks' that much i fail to see much substance in their argument.

 

Ted,

You and David strike me as self-interested consumers who want to pay the lowest possible price for every Logos resource you purchase. You have every right in the world to play such a role in the system, but what you don't have the right to expect is that Logos will conform its pricing mechanisms to your particular consumption patterns. No provider of goods or services does that or can do that!  (And what about the Logos customer whose personal financial situation permits him or her to request a faster stream of pre-pub offers than you prefer? How can Logos satisfy that customer and you at the same time? One of you is destined to unsatisfied, leaving Logos to digest forum threads such as this one!)

Extrapolated, your argument contends that I should be able to tell Best Buy either not to sell simultaneously the 60" tv AND the refrigerator AND the laptop at sale prices that appeal to me, because I can't afford them all at once, OR, to hold those sale prices until I can complete my desired purchases (and if they do that for me, of course, they'll also have to do it for every other consumer attracted to the sale prices). That's not the way the world works.

We all want to save money. We all want the lowest possible price for the goods and services we consume. The reality is, a resource's current price IS its lowest possible price (absent negotiations with a salesperson, of course). In most cases, pre-pub sales offer lower lowest-possible prices than do post-pub prices. In my opinion, that's neither a surprise nor a bad thing.

Bill

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Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 11:12 AM

Guys I think we're missing how Logos works pre pubs!  We tell Logos "yeah I'll buy that" and once the Logos Meter of Confidence that 'yeah, they'll buy that' reaches 100 they start chiseling away at the final product.

The problem comes when the "yeah I'll buy that"s can no longer purchase what they said they would which pushed the product to saleable state in the first place!

Its easy to see this contradiction.

The current blasts in which Logos pumps out new material says they really don't need the pre-pub support and thats fine by me.  I guess I'm wondering why we're still doing it like this?

 

PS: If its only so we can have a discount I will gladly keep pretending... don't want to sound ungrateful! Wink

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 12:07 PM

Paul Newsome:
The problem comes when the "yeah I'll buy that"s can no longer purchase what they said they would which pushed the product to saleable state in the first place!

Exactly. A while back there was a thread discussing the ethics of signing up for, then canceling pre-pub orders. I suspect that Logos has their own formula for what percentage of pre-pubs they anticipate actually resulting in sales. They can manipulate that figure if cancellations become a larger probem due to the speed of released.

As a personal aside, I've often been puzzled by a few friends that seem to spend more time reading commentaries about the Bible than reading the Bible itself. Occasionally a forum participant leaves me wondering if they've left any time to read the Bible text itself amid their 1000's of resources. Maybe when Logos has more of the titles that interest me, I'll understand. I must admit, though, that Logos already has many resources I'd like but can't justify financially.Sad

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 12:19 PM

David Paul:
But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know. 

I just checked my orders for the first 6 months of 2011. I can not publish dollar figures without causing my wife (& others) negative feelings. Zip it! But I can tell you I saved an average of  55% off  today's current selling prices (not "retail.")  I only purchased ONE product at retail price The Ultimate Archeology Collection. It was already discounted and was pulled from the catalog just after I purchased it. I am happy I did buy it. Of course a couple of those purchases were 90% off CP titles. (The Christmas special was not during that period so the approximately 95% off was not factored.)

That survey tells me a few things:

  1. I do respond favorably to Sales, Pre-Pubs,and Community Pricing. Incidentally I bid strategically on everything in CP.
  2. I do not buy at retail. I waited forever for a sale on Barth's Church Dogmatics. Even then it seemed expensive.
  3. Logos will get my disposable "stream income" regardless of what resources are currently shipping If all Pre-Pubs were junk, I'd spend the money on resources that have already been published.
  4. Logos is able to squeeze about 10% more blood out of this turnip than I thought I could afford. (That is a gross idiom in the USA  Ick!)
  5. edit: I buy too much and have no desire to stop.

Logos is not responsible for keeping my "wants" in check.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 2:24 PM

MJD:

I am unsure how this relates to the situation. I have made significant purchases this year  (2011) in Logos books... well over $10,000 closer to $20,000.   If Logos is willing to offer a Pre-Pub Special, I find this gracious on their part.  You are acting as if they have an obligation to make sure everyone should be able to afford the special offer, before they extended it.  This makes no sense to me...Confused

WOW...well, that is clearly on the other side of the spectrum from what I was expecting, but it actually makes sense considering your Henry Rollins "Gimme, gimme, gimme, I need some more..." stance. It also makes my case much easier to make. You and Bill, who keeps channeling Adam Smith, aren't getting the picture. This isn't about "best case scenarios" (MJD's $20K spree) nor is it about Economics 101, 102, or 2011. It's about PHYSICS. As in, if you are depending on customers to purchase your offerings, a faucet is much more customer friendly than a firehose. As Super Tramp and others have said (including myself), I've got far too many options to ever pay full price for anything. If Logos INSISTS on having a wide-stream water jet as their product release model, I am almost certain that they will find large amounts of what they produce doesn't get purchased. NO ONE'S CUP IS BIG ENOUGH TO CATCH THE FLOOD...except for MJD, apparently. It isn't physically possible, nor economically.

I'm not poo-pooing your ability to buy what you want, MJD. Bully for you and more power to you. I am saying this: if Logos tries to market to the likes of you and your bottomless pockets, which is an all too rare commodity in this economic climate, they will get themselves so over extended in unpurchased product and so deep in red ink it will make Job's depths of Sheol look like a kiddie's wading pool.

Bill..like...just so you know, you know...I..like...have a college degree and all. So...like...I know about economics and all, and...like, you know...I know about stuff like supply and demand, you know...and other kinds of...you know, economics-related stuff. You know? And that is PRECISELY MY POINT. I am expressing to Logos how their decision to vomit out dozens of titles a month is affecting my ability to pay (or not, as the case may be). I'm pointing out that only the people who having extraordinarily deep pockets are going to be able to match this absurd stream...all the while, the majority who can't afford to keep up will just be watching as items they had their hearts set on for months or YEARS end up slipping through their fingers. And sit by dejectedly while they nurse their bruised feelings. Great for customer morale, I'm sure!! Big Smile

And your Best Buy analogy/argument is waaaay off the mark. If Bob wants Logos to disappear quickly, he will turn it into a Best Buy. EVERYONE wants what Best Buy sells. But most Christians don't even read the Bibles they carry to church. The numbers of those who study the Bible with helps is miniscule...in other words, A NICHE MARKET. Niche markets are symbiotic entities, they aren't like Walmart and Joe Sixpack. I hope Bob is able to open up new markets in Christian Fiction and other historically non-Logos fare. That shouldn't affect my relationship with Logos. But that's my point. Logos needs to treat its symbiant relationships well. Because people CAN GO TO WALMART, or Amazon, or Barnes and Noble, or Books-a-Million to by e-books of the latest Mac Lucado. I don't shop at those places. They don't have my niche. But other niche retailers do.

The "Logos doesn't owe you anything" argument is totally lost on me. In one sense that is true--in another sense it is bogus. Without me and others like me, they don't exist. That whole argument is a wash. Neither side can win. Sorta like tic-tac-toe. But I know one thing. The bigger things get, the bigger their BASE has to be, otherwise they get top-heavy and crash hard. Maybe Bob is the man with the Plan. Maybe he can read my mind. Maybe he can see the future. Regardless, I'm just telling him how it is affecting me. I don't need to 1) be taken to school or 2) be scolded for saying how it is affecting me...and affecting others, I suspect. Some may wish to express how this is affecting them also, and perhaps affecting them differently. They might have a different experience altogether. Fine. Dandy. But what makes anyone think their reality trumps my reality???? As a long-term, five-figure customer, I expect Bob WANTS to know how I feel about his company. I actually suspect (shh! don't tell anyone!) that is what this forum is all about. I find Logos to be rather exceptional in its responsiveness to the customer pulse. Which is exactly why I'm expressing how this new trend is affecting me. Perhaps it is affecting others differently. Okay by me. But I really don't need to be addressed like I am clueless. I am expressing a very valid point, and like others have said, this sudden glut of material kind of produces a situation that is at fundamental odds with how Bob and others expressed the PrePub plan was supposed to work at its inception. I'm expressing facts in my reality, as I see them. That's all. No amount of attempted schooling or scolding can change that.

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Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 2:47 PM

David Paul:
I am expressing to Logos how their decision to vomit out dozens of titles a month is affecting my ability to pay (or not, as the case may be). I'm pointing out that only the people who having extraordinarily deep pockets are going to be able to match this absurd stream...all the while, the majority who can't afford to keep up will just be watching as items they had their hearts set on for months or YEARS end up slipping through their fingers.

I am trying to understand what you are asking for.

How many new titles per month do you want Logos to produce?

Are you sure that they will be the ones that you are interested in?

How long do you want Logos to wait to produce those that you cannot afford today?

What do you say to those who want those titles sooner?

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 2:51 PM

Come on, man. This isn't rocket science. Dropping $1000-$2000 dollars in PrePubs in 2-3 weeks is too much. You don't get that?

EDIT: It occurred to me will I was getting my shower just now...why are people talking to me?? I am addressing my comments to Logos, the people who can do something about what I am addressing. I'm giving my reasons. If someone wants to express a different perspective, do so. Make your case. I promise you, I won't write a reply grilling you on why you see things the way you do.

I'm not trying to micro-manage how Logos does business. I'm a customer writing to express how their decisions are affecting me. Quizzing me, scolding me, etc., for conveying my concern and interest in how Logos decisions affect me...is just so bizarre, and kind of inappropriate. Mind YOUR relationship with Logos, if you please. Don't mind MINE.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 3:38 PM

Bill Coley:

Ted,

You and David strike me as self-interested consumers who want to pay the lowest possible price for every Logos resource you purchase.

Then pray for me. I thought I was being a wise steward with the money the Lord has provided. I shall not mention the many sales opportunities I have missed b/cos I helped push a particular resource into production via the Pre-Pub system. So I don't think your comment is a fair characterization of my purchasing habits.

Bill Coley:
what you don't have the right to expect is that Logos will conform its pricing mechanisms to your particular consumption patterns.

Please can you show me where I spoke of me having a right to my request?

Bill Coley:
(And what about the Logos customer whose personal financial situation permits him or her to request a faster stream of pre-pub offers than you prefer? How can Logos satisfy that customer and you at the same time? One of you is destined to unsatisfied

Yes they can & they have.

By following a suggestion by another poster on this thread, I shall grant you your point. I am not sure why I did not think of following the suggestion in the first place - no problem with me now. Bill, what is so bad in asking for due consideration to be given to someone who wants to make a purchase at Pre-Pub price? I guess I am not sure why you view this negatively. My point is those who do not invest heavily on the Pre-Pub can purchase at the Pre-Pub price by being selective and those who do should be given due consideration. Due consideration has been given to me by Logos but you seem to be objecting that it should.

Bill Coley:
One of you is destined to unsatisfied, leaving Logos to digest forum threads such as this one!)

If it makes you happy I will try not to feedback Logos on their forum again. For the most part I have not done this but I really did not think my request would degenerate into controversy. Perhaps I was not polite enough. You can have the last word on this but I am done.

Ted

 

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 4:20 PM

David Paul:

EDIT: It occurred to me will I was getting my shower just now...why are people talking to me?? I am addressing my comments to Logos, the people who can do something about what I am addressing. I'm giving my reasons. If someone wants to express a different perspective, do so. Make your case. I promise you, I won't write a reply grilling you on why you see things the way you do.

I'm not trying to micro-manage how Logos does business. I'm a customer writing to express how their decisions are affecting me. Quizzing me, scolding me, etc., for conveying my concern and interest in how Logos decisions affect me...is just so bizarre, and kind of inappropriate. Mind YOUR relationship with Logos, if you please. Don't mind MINE.

Yes. Well said!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 5:02 PM

David Paul:
EDIT: It occurred to me will I was getting my shower just now...why are people talking to me??

Fair question. I will give you my two answers.

  1. My personal motivation is to encourage Logos to address the problem. (Squeaky wheel, nagging widow analogies)  I would love to see some way made for the repeat customers to secure the great deals. We know Logos "powers-that-be" are creative when they need to be.
  2. If you wanted a private chat with someone who has the power to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, you could just email Bob or Dan Pritchett directly. We fellow drowned rats around the fire-hose can't do anything, except keep the thread alive and hope the squeaky wheels get oiled.

I am fearful Logos has learned there are more thirsty people out there and instead of water they are offering a wide variety of refreshment. You and I, and all the other faithful repeat customers are not the only clientele in the house. And I can't afford everything on the menu.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 6:03 PM

I enjoy watching movies on the big screen. I watch more movies than most people, and I appreciate a wide range of styles. Even so, some weekends (some months!) there's nothing I want to see in our local theaters. Other weekends (hmm... around July and Christmas...) there are more movies I'd watch than time slots available that weekend -- or movie budget available.

Sometimes I don't get a chance to see a "big screen movie" on the big screen, and have to watch it on a smaller screen later on DVD.

Should they slow the pace of movies to only one good movie per weekend? Well, they try -- studios sometimes delay a big movie aimed at a certain demographics if another big movie aimed at the same group is releasing that weekend. (And Logos tries to pay attention to pre-pub releases -- we even have a chart that shows how many of the last 10 pre-pubs were purchased by how many different people, so we can identify excessive overlap.)

But still, there are lots of different movie fans, with many different interests, and hundreds of box office movies, and only 52 weeks in a year. Spacing out the movies I want, so I can watch one per weekend at the theater, means a lot fewer movies out there.

And what would that do to my wife? Who only wants to go to a theater for movies made from Jane Austen novels? Despite surprisingly prodigious output in this category, the industry can only offer her a movie or two a year. If they slowed releases to meet my desires, she'd have to go 5 years between trips to the theater.

 

I am, actually, sympathetic to the dilemma, and it's possible I'm even missing some clever solution. But as I understand it, it's nearly an impossible problem to fix. I just wanted to let you know that we are listening. But other than making every pre-pub discount price permanent (which would probably mean that people just defer orders until they _really_ want it, ending the value of pre-pub for getting things funded and actually produced), I don't know what we can do.

-- Bob

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Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 6:49 PM

So how many thousands of books do we need at $.50 a volume for a collection to be useable in ministry...with or without Adam Smith's contribution?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 8:33 PM

Wonder about pre-publication order edit option: once Logos sets a delivery date, could edit my delivery date => as soon as available or specify a future delivery date: up to 90 days later at pre-publication price.  If 4 pre-publications are ready to ship in a week, could choose 1 to ship on time; 1 in one month; 1 in two months; and 1 in three months (effectively spread out billing, which would be nice for cash flow).

Once pre-publication has shipped, would like 3 options:

1. Ship now (at pre-publication price)

2. Wait for my date to ship (at pre-publication price)

3. Cancel

The email sent to confirm pre-publication billing could include delivery option date choice (with link to edit order).  My default delivery date could be set to Logos estimated delivery date; if do not choose a future date, pre-publication ships as soon as ready (same as current system).

Knowing some Logos delivery dates change, when finally ships, can compare pre-publication with my delivery date.  If my date is older, then ship now.

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 8:51 PM

Bob Pritchett:

I enjoy watching movies on the big screen. I watch more movies than most people, and I appreciate a wide range of styles. Even so, some weekends (some months!) there's nothing I want to see in our local theaters. Other weekends (hmm... around July and Christmas...) there are more movies I'd watch than time slots available that weekend -- or movie budget available.

Sometimes I don't get a chance to see a "big screen movie" on the big screen, and have to watch it on a smaller screen later on DVD.

Should they slow the pace of movies to only one good movie per weekend? Well, they try -- studios sometimes delay a big movie aimed at a certain demographics if another big movie aimed at the same group is releasing that weekend. (And Logos tries to pay attention to pre-pub releases -- we even have a chart that shows how many of the last 10 pre-pubs were purchased by how many different people, so we can identify excessive overlap.)

But still, there are lots of different movie fans, with many different interests, and hundreds of box office movies, and only 52 weeks in a year. Spacing out the movies I want, so I can watch one per weekend at the theater, means a lot fewer movies out there.

And what would that do to my wife? Who only wants to go to a theater for movies made from Jane Austen novels? Despite surprisingly prodigious output in this category, the industry can only offer her a movie or two a year. If they slowed releases to meet my desires, she'd have to go 5 years between trips to the theater.

 

I am, actually, sympathetic to the dilemma, and it's possible I'm even missing some clever solution. But as I understand it, it's nearly an impossible problem to fix. I just wanted to let you know that we are listening. But other than making every pre-pub discount price permanent (which would probably mean that people just defer orders until they _really_ want it, ending the value of pre-pub for getting things funded and actually produced), I don't know what we can do.

-- Bob

First, let me preface this post I am writing now, so I am not construed as a "kiss up". No I expressed my thoughts earlier in this thread against David Paul's rant about Logos release policy. 

My prior post was written before Bob posted his analogy about movies, which by the way, I think is spot on!  I also think the logic they (Logos) use in charting out the pre-pub release's is brilliant and a great management tool in order to keep their finger on the pulse.

Don't misconstrue this post, I love the likes of David Paul's (types of people), frankly because they speak their minds (after all he has a Ram head as an Avatar) and he has good logic...(typically, just not this time)

(edit) Oh, by the way I just read Keep Smiling 4 Jesus's post -- Brilliant solution! Star

Peace an Joy in Him!

Mike

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 15 2011 9:48 PM

MJD:
First, let me preface this post I am writing now, so I am not construed
......

Hee Hee Hee  Big Smile

MJD:
Bob posted his analogy about movies, which by the way, I think is spot on! 

The movie analogy works but for one detail: The older a movie gets, the cheaper it gets. A Logos resource goes up in price the longer you wait to buy it. (How's that for a fanboy critiquing the CEO? Devil )

MJD:
(edit) Oh, by the way I just read Keep Smiling 4 Jesus's post -- Brilliant solution! Star

Yes, it is brilliant but would take some tinkering on the website. (Can't be done this month. Sad )

How about another snapshot? Or did I burn my bridges with that fanboy joke? (It was a joke, you know?)

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