Logos 4 Mac Consensus for Improvement Priorities

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011 5:14 PM

Planning to create Logos User Voice item "Logos 4 Mac Improvement Priorities" as follow-up to Quo Vadimus 4.4? for community voting with reference to this thread.

Combining items from Quo Vadimus 4.4? with wiki Feature Parity section plus several Logos 4 Mac threads provides a starting list for Logos 4 Mac improvement priority consensus discussion:

  1. Improve Logos 4 menu responsiveness (especially Files, Guides, Layouts, and search drop-downs) so Logos 4 Mac feels responsive instead of sluggish.  Ideally, clicking a menu or search drop-down would be followed by instant appearance instead of waiting many seconds.
  2. Add multi-finger gesture support for Magic Mouse, Magic TrackPad, and MacBook track pads.
  3. For OS X Lion, add Full Screen Button.
  4. Mac clean-up of items so Logos 4 Mac works consistently (e.g. cursor focus when typing text into a field, reading plan "mark read" visual filter update instantaneous)
  5. Continue Logos User Voice Focus on Code/Performance Optimization to include quicker display of many search results and responsive scrolling.
  6. Mac needs font scaling program wide that works.  PC has more font size options: Program Scaling plus font slider adjustment in Bible Word Study, Collections, Exegetical Guide, Passage Guide, Passage List, Reading Plan, Search, and Text Comparison.
  7. Mac needs Highlighting color choices (instead of blackness).  PC Highlighting can create style then choose color that does not work on Mac plus editing new Mac style shows color missing Thread => Bugs languishing for 7-months... 
  8. Mac needs Note feature parity with Logos 4 Windows.  PC Notes have more capabilities than Mac, including automatic hyperlinking of scripture in notes and right click to Note item. Logos 4.3 added keyboard shortcuts and bullet usability, but still needs more improvement => Notes ; Logos User Voice Rework notes function - in one or multiple phases includes: "Implement parity for Mac version"
  9. Add Program Setting (preference) for diagnostic logging and indexer launch at login (ideally add to Logos 4 Windows as well)
  10. PC Morph Search Analysis group by Lemma shows Lemma in summary lines, Mac does not
  11. PC Bible Word Study (BWS) has click on hebrew lemma option to change numbered lemma’s, need workaround for Mac.
  12. PC Bible Search with Grid display can hover mouse over grid box to display Bible verse in a pop-up. PC mouse pointer changes to hand over Bible version header.
  13. PC Bibliography works, planned for future Mac release
  14. PC Guides (Exegetical, Passage) have Stop button while Guide is populating, lacking on Mac
  15. PC Home Page customization has drag and drop option to change order of display (can sync to Mac via Logos servers).
  16. PC Passage List has drag and drop option to change verse order plus compact view to show verse references without text along with ability to insert Heading, Mac lacks drap and dropalways displays full view and lacks Insert Heading
  17. PC Resource download(s) can be done in one session, but Mac needs many restarts (still an issue in 4.3 Release Candidate 1)
  18. PC Scrolling in search results can be done using arrow keys on keyboard, not usable on Mac
  19. PC Search results has right click expand/collapse options plus larger clickable area for article expand/collapse than Mac
  20. PC Text Comparison can select and copy individual verses, but Mac needs workaround using Print/Export
  21. PC Timelines has styles menu to change timeline appearance, not yet implemented on Mac
  22. PC has middle mouse clicks that do not work on Mac (click middle mouse button to close a resource)

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 28 2011 5:26 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Mac needs Note feature parity with Logos 4 Windows.  PC Notes have more capabilities than Mac, including automatic hyperlinking of scripture in notes and right click to Note item. Logos 4.3 added keyboard shortcuts and bullet usability, but still needs more improvement => Notes ; Logos User Voice Rework notes function - in one or multiple phases includes: "Implement parity for Mac version"

I would put this one at the top of the list. As bad as notes are in L4 Win, they are superb in comparison with the notes in L4 Mac. Broken Heart

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 28 2011 8:55 PM

I'm a little puzzled about the middle mouse button. Maybe this might be a gesture in Lion? I don't recall ever using a middle button on my Mac. Maybe us Christian Mac users should be blushing in using the right or left but not pursuing the narrow middle path....Wink

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 28 2011 8:56 PM

My short list:

  1. Notes are just unusable for me (your #8). I'm not sure this is even a windows parity thing. 
  2. Text comparison is useless, needs to be re-worked to pop out a floating window with working panels that allow me to actually compare the texts, take notes(but see #1), and highlight findings. (not really your #20.. it doesn't go far enough and layouts go too far). 
  3. Passage lists are super marginal (your #16)
  4. Highlighting fixed (your #7)

#1 & #2 are where I find Accordance leaves Logos in the dust, so I use Accordance to study my text, and Logos to do background research and large library searches.  I am NOT trying to start a flame war, just stating how serious this is for my study & prep on a mac. 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 28 2011 10:13 PM

One more item for initial # 9 => "Add Program Setting (preference) for diagnostic logging, history, and indexer launch at login (ideally add to Logos 4 Windows as well)" since disabling history population would improve performance.

Michael Ballai:
I'm a little puzzled about the middle mouse button. Maybe this might be a gesture in Lion? I don't recall ever using a middle button on my Mac.

Personally have USB trackball devices with wheel buttons connected to Mac and PC.  On PC, can click wheel button (middle) to close a resource in Logos 4 Windows, wish Mac had same capability.

Jack Caviness:
As bad as notes are in L4 Win, they are superb in comparison with the notes in L4 Mac. Broken Heart

Mike S.:
Notes are just unusable for me (your #8). I'm not sure this is even a windows parity thing. 

Noted along with
Mike S.:
#1 & #2 are where I find Accordance leaves Logos in the dust, so I use Accordance to study my text, and Logos to do background research and large library searches.  I am NOT trying to start a flame war, just stating how serious this is for my study & prep on a mac. 
Hence, pondering higher priority for Notes (e.g. # 3 ), but below # 1 and # 2; am aware of Logos 4 Mac frustrations when clicking on menus that do not respond instantly (under a second); which also applies to typing Notes with screen display lag of many seconds.

Mike S.:
Text comparison is useless, needs to be re-worked to pop out a floating window with working panels that allow me to actually compare the texts, take notes(but see #1), and highlight findings. (not really your #20.. it doesn't go far enough and layouts go too far). 

Concur Logos 4 Text comparison on Mac and PC could be improved.  Wonder about screen mock up ?  What would be useful ?

Mike S.:
Passage lists are super marginal (your #16)

Mac Passage Lists likewise needs improvements; any suggestions to improve wording of # 16 ?  Cleaning up feature parity for Passage Lists would be helpful for Bible Study; perhaps move between original # 4 and # 5 ?

Mike S.:
Highlighting fixed (your #7)

Found editing Font Styling for a custom Highlighting Style in Logos 4.3 Release Candidate 1 is still Black:

Preview shows Font Styling color is Red, not Black.  Other Highlighting color items open with existing color.

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lostlogik | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 2:04 AM

For me, #1 and #8 as well as #14. The latter may be tied to #1, as frequently I wish I could cancel a Passage Guide, as it can take for what seems like forever, but a general speed improvement might sort this out.

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David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 9:01 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Planning to create Logos User Voice item "Logos 4 Mac Improvement Priorities" as follow-up to Quo Vadimus 4.4? for community voting with reference to this thread.

Uservoice works best when the items suggested are more granular. Since each user gets a certain number of votes, the relative priority of each of these items will become apparent if each of your bullet points is given its own item in Uservoice (some of them already have items).

KS4J: Perhaps rather than creating a single, monolithic uservoice request, you could provide links to the requests that correspond to the items in your list?

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Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 2:23 PM

KS4J: I'm happy to work with you on putting these into user voice format. 

For text comparison: I would position it as a way to create "Floating Layouts" that would not touch the main window, but instead open up a text comparison floating window layout.  Simplest form would be to take a main window and, instead of saving all windows as a layout, convert the main window layout to "Floating"... or even, take an existing layout and "Open as Floating Layout".

Of course, I'm overloading the existing functionality to try to create linkage here... the user-facing functionality I'm looking for:

"Open a saved floating window layout that doesn't know about my other windows, especially not my main window."

Having worked a good bit with floating layouts, this would need to be accompanied by a feature that allows you to restrict links to opening only in the current "window" to stop me from straying from my floating window back to the main window when I open a new window. 

Here are a few example uses for "Floating Window Layouts"... each (someday) with notes pane with 3 tabs (my questions note file, research findings note file, and my thoughts/findings note file) and ideally highlighting palette (though keyboard shortcuts are also viable to start):

  •  Bible Text Comparison (a number of bible texts set to a link that I set aside for text comparison)
    • I actually use variations on this theme to compare in the following different ways
      • Passage with my mix of favorite texts (HCSB, NET, ESV, NA27, Message)
      • NA27 with various RI texts
      • Dynamic interpretations (NLT, Message, NCV, NIV, NIV84, NIrV, etc)
      • Dynamic to Word for Word Comparisons (ESV, NLT, Message, HCSB)
      • Maj Txt to Eclectic (KJV, NKJV to NASB, ESB)
      • LXX to MT (LXX, BHS, ESV, NRSV, Gott. LXX)
  • Lexham Discourse Focus (a window set up with the english "HD" text, the greek discourse text, and glossary+grammar)
  • Apostolic Fathers (a floating window with a specific search template set up for my AF collection with specific fields... I put in the search field contents and go to town... all results open ONLY in my floating window!)
  • Church History
  • Sermons
  • Early Church fathers

Does this make sense, or should I put together some screen shots?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 4:16 PM

Mike S.:
"Open a saved floating window layout that doesn't know about my other windows, especially not my main window."

Noted current # 51 user voice item => Floating window layouts "In addition to our Layouts in L4, it would be neat if we could have Floating window layouts which would open without disturbing our current layout. see http://community.logos.com/forums/p/22540/168161.aspx#168161 for more details on this idea."

Noticed description similarity (albeit with different wording to leave open windows as is).

Mike S.:
Does this make sense, or should I put together some screen shots?

Reading examples is exciting; some screen shots would help communicate more.  Wonder about adding screen shots and examples to Have subLayouts for floating windows discussion ? Provide more reason to vote for Floating window layouts

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 5:55 PM

David Mitchell:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Planning to create Logos User Voice item "Logos 4 Mac Improvement Priorities" as follow-up to Quo Vadimus 4.4? for community voting with reference to this thread.

Uservoice works best when the items suggested are more granular. Since each user gets a certain number of votes, the relative priority of each of these items will become apparent if each of your bullet points is given its own item in Uservoice (some of them already have items).

KS4J: Perhaps rather than creating a single, monolithic uservoice request, you could provide links to the requests that correspond to the items in your list?

Observation: over 74 % of Logos User Voice items have 11 votes or less (almost 70 % have 9 votes or less).  Currently, Logos User Voice has 378 items with many related to Logos 4 Mac improvements:

# 2 => Focus on Code/Performance Optimization

# 3 => Rework notes function - in one or multiple phases

# 51 =>  Floating window layouts

# 178 (tied) => Translation Interlinear

# 178 (tied) => Make Text Comparison much more versatile

# 204 (tied) => text comparison

# 204 (tied) => home page text size

# 204 (tied) => Enable multitouch pinch-to-zoom on Logos4 Mac!

Noticed many Mac specific user voice items:

# 143 (tied) => Use the built-in Mac OS text-to-speech ability, with the computer reading all or selected text

# 204 (tied) => Make the Mac Updater menu bar icon black

# 204 (tied) => Make the Mac app icon a little smaller

# 204 (tied) => add Mellel support for "Copy Bible Verses"

# 204 (tied) => Logos 4 Mac: Option + click on x cold close all windows and take you back to Home

# 204 (tied) => Float Panel needs a shortcut key in the Mac version of Logos 4

 

Pondering 4 new Logos User Voice items:

A) Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness

"Improve Logos 4 menu responsiveness (especially Files, Guides, Layouts, and search drop-downs) so Logos 4 feels responsive instead of sluggish.  Ideally, clicking a menu or search drop-down would be followed by instant appearance instead of waiting many seconds."

 

B) Logos 4 Mac Enhancements

"Please add full screen button for OS X Lion along with multi-finger gesturing for Magic Mouse, Magic TrackPad, and MacBook track pads on all supported Mac OS X versions."

 

C) Please add Logos 4 Program Settings

"Please add Logos 4 Program Settings for Diagnostic Logging, History, and Indexer launch at login". Disabling history population would improve performance (similar to default of diagnostic logging being turned off)."

 

D) Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC

"Logos 4 Mac lacks many features already available in Logos 4 Windows.  Wiki has list of Mac features needing improvement => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_and_PC_User_Interface_Differences#Feature_Parity"

When Logos 4.3 stable release ships, pondering update to Feature Parity list:

 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 7:49 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally have USB trackball devices with wheel buttons connected to Mac and PC.  On PC, can click wheel button (middle) to close a resource in Logos 4 Windows, wish Mac had same capability.

I use the scroll wheel button on my Magic Mouse for Expose. I would not want that changed.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 7:52 PM

David Mitchell:
Uservoice works best when the items suggested are more granular.

Improvements in Notes is already #3 on Uservoice with no apparent response from Logos. Does it really matter what we put there?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 9:40 PM

Jack Caviness:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally have USB trackball devices with wheel buttons connected to Mac and PC.  On PC, can click wheel button (middle) to close a resource in Logos 4 Windows, wish Mac had same capability.

I use the scroll wheel button on my Magic Mouse for Expose. I would not want that changed.

Looks like Expose can use Secondary or Middle mouse button.  With standard Snow Leopard mouse preferences, cannot middle click with my Magic Mouse (noticed Magic Prefs add-on has many more options).

For grins, assigned Secondary Mouse button to Expose All Applications; then switched to Logos 4.3 RC 1 on Mac; right click opened Expose (needed to change my Expose preferences so could use right click in Logos 4 Mac again).  Hence, if middle mouse click to close a resource is added to Logos 4 Mac; anticipate middle mouse button can be assigned to Expose (and not usable in Logos 4 Mac).

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 29 2011 9:44 PM

Jack Caviness:

David Mitchell:
Uservoice works best when the items suggested are more granular.

Improvements in Notes is already #3 on Uservoice with no apparent response from Logos. Does it really matter what we put there?

Noticed thread Sorting notes hits a snag when the Bible reference spans more than one book included Logos response earlier today:

Tonya J Ross:
 The notes feature is one that is being actively worked on and this issue will be fixed in a future release. Smile

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David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 30 2011 9:42 AM

Jack Caviness:

David Mitchell:
Uservoice works best when the items suggested are more granular.

Improvements in Notes is already #3 on Uservoice with no apparent response from Logos. Does it really matter what we put there?

Yes, it does. We do pay attention to UserVoice, even if we don't respond to every item (just like this forum).

Additionally, it's worth noting that the UserVoice item you've indicated is not very granular. The fact that it's the number 3 item tells us that many people would like changes to Notes, but it doesn't give us any sort of insight into which changes would be most beneficial to the greatest number of users—and some of the features suggested in that item would take quite a bit of work.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 30 2011 12:23 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

A) Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness

"Improve Logos 4 menu responsiveness (especially Files, Guides, Layouts, and search drop-downs) so Logos 4 feels responsive instead of sluggish.  Ideally, clicking a menu or search drop-down would be followed by instant appearance instead of waiting many seconds."

Please vote => http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/2091619-improve-logos-4-menu-responsiveness

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

B) Logos 4 Mac Enhancements

"Please add full screen button for OS X Lion along with multi-finger gesturing for Magic Mouse, Magic TrackPad, and MacBook track pads on all supported Mac OS X versions."

Please vote => http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/2091631-logos-4-mac-enhancements

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

C) Please add Logos 4 Program Settings

"Please add Logos 4 Program Settings for Diagnostic Logging, History, and Indexer launch at login". Disabling history population would improve performance (similar to default of diagnostic logging being turned off)."

Please vote => http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/2091637-please-add-logos-4-program-settings

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

D) Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC

"Logos 4 Mac lacks many features already available in Logos 4 Windows.  Wiki has list of Mac features needing improvement => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_and_PC_User_Interface_Differences#Feature_Parity"

Please vote => http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/2091639-improve-logos-4-mac-feature-parity-with-pc

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2011 3:58 AM

David Mitchell:
Additionally, it's worth noting that the UserVoice item you've indicated is not very granular. The fact that it's the number 3 item tells us that many people would like changes to Notes, but it doesn't give us any sort of insight into which changes would be most beneficial to the greatest number of users—and some of the features suggested in that item would take quite a bit of work.

This is a disturbing comment. MJ worked diligently to combine the many—often redundant—forum posts and UserVoice entries into a coherent list. Now, you seem to be saying that since so many suggestions have been made, Logos sees the UserVoice entry as practically useless, even though it has received so many votes. There is widespread dissatisfaction with the Notes feature on both L4 Win and L4 Mac, and Logos does not seem to be addressing either.

Here is a "granular" suggestion: Fix Notes in L4 Mac so that it can scroll to the proper note when clicking on a note icon or when creating a new note. This is the single most irritating—and persistent—bug in L4 Mac. Is anyone working on this?

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2011 7:22 AM

Jack Caviness:
Here is a "granular" suggestion: Fix Notes in L4 Mac so that it can scroll to the proper note when clicking on a note icon or when creating a new note. This is the single most irritating—and persistent—bug in L4 Mac. Is anyone working on this?

Hear! Hear!

Jack is quite right - I don't complain about notes because I don't use notes

but I won't start using notes until this particular thing is fixed.

Without it I may just as well sick to my post-it notes.

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David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2011 8:57 AM

Mike Binks:

Jack Caviness:
Here is a "granular" suggestion: Fix Notes in L4 Mac so that it can scroll to the proper note when clicking on a note icon or when creating a new note. This is the single most irritating—and persistent—bug in L4 Mac. Is anyone working on this?

Hear! Hear!

Jack is quite right - I don't complain about notes because I don't use notes

but I won't start using notes until this particular thing is fixed.

Without it I may just as well sick to my post-it notes.

Interestingly enough, that particular issue with Notes isn't in the uservoice suggestion (unless you count "Implement parity for Mac version", which again, is not very granular).

Having said that, I do know that Notes is getting a number of fixes and enhancements in the next version (after 4.3). It even appears that this particular fix is on the schedule (although it doesn't appear to be very high on the schedule, which puts it in danger of getting bumped off).

Regarding the original decision to create an aggregate uservoice item: I didn't know that such a thread had been running on the forums. I generally stay within the Mac forum, and I sometimes wonder if I should participate that much—I'm certainly not among the most tactful of people, and I often seem to stir up more trouble than my contributions are worth (as seen here Smile). Had I known about the thread when it was created, my advice would have been the same as it is now.

Aggregate requests tend to attract a lot of votes because they seem to have a better chance of "winning" (I could draw an analogy to many modern political systems, but I will refrain, as I'm sure I've already started enough trouble for one weekend…). However, it's very difficult to respond to them in any official capacity.

To illustrate, let me point out a single example from the list:

use right click rather than red x for delete - this request has a number of design and usability implications, and I doubt that our designers would be in favor of such a change. It's even possible that some people have voted for the entire item while disagreeing with this particular suggestion. However, there are clearly users who desire this change, and if we "accept" this uservoice suggestion without making this change, those users will (rightfully) be frustrated with us for not making good on our promise.

Many of the items in that uservoice suggestion could be analyzed in similar fashion. I can make guesses as to which are most important, but uservoice is designed to only allow a single "yes" or "no" to the entire list, and saying "yes", but only implementing a subset of the list is bound to disappoint some group of users.

Similarly, the #2 item on uservoice is "focus on code/performance optimization". Logos is a big application, and your perception of performance is going to be largely driven by what you're trying to do with it (and which platform you're using—some things are faster on Windows, others are faster on Mac). I spend many of my evenings focusing on performance, simply because it interests me. However, because I rarely hear anything more specific than "make it faster", I have to rely on my own intuition (or personal preference) when choosing areas to focus on, and I have little to indicate whether my efforts are directed to areas of the app where performance boosts will be noticed or appreciated. On the other hand, if there were a uservoice titled "improve startup time" (without loss of generality) that had 200 votes, I would know to focus most of my efforts in that space.

Concluding:

  1. We read feedback here and on uservoice, even if we don't respond to every item.
  2. Uservoice is most helpful to us (and most potentially useful to you) when suggestions are granular.
  3. I'm sorry for stirring up so much trouble on the forums—I'm surprised anyone still lets me post here with a Logos badge under my name.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2011 9:29 AM

David Mitchell:

Concluding:

  1. We read feedback here and on uservoice, even if we don't respond to every item.
  2. Uservoice is most helpful to us (and most potentially useful to you) when suggestions are granular.
  3. I'm sorry for stirring up so much trouble on the forums—I'm surprised anyone still lets me post here with a Logos badge under my name.

Thanks for insights.  Compared to some contentious threads, personally not see trouble; thankful for interaction with one who is passionate about improving Logos Bible Software.

David Mitchell:
use right click rather than red x for delete

Observation: Logos 4 File menu now has right click to delete items (avoids accidental red x deletion)

 

By the way, noticed Logos User Voice suggestions added yesterday receiving some votes:

Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC has 12 votes with 5 supporters (appears Logos 4 feature parity is desired; looking forward to improvements; Thankful for many already done)

Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness has 10 votes with 4 supporters (menus are used more often than startup so would appreciate faster menu response first)

Logos 4 Mac Enhancements has 6 votes with 3 supporters (includes multi-touch superset of suggestion => Enable multitouch pinch-to-zoom on Logos4 Mac!)

Please add Logos 4 Program Settings has 3 votes with 2 supporters (personally would like to disable history for better performance)

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