Feedback from a Long Time Logos User

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Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 5 2009 9:27 AM

Bob and the Logos Team,

Let me begin by saying how much I have enjoyed and appreciated your products in the past and that I desire your company to prosper in the future. It is in the spirit of desiring the very best for you that I will be offering some honest feedback. It pains me to say this but so far, my experience with the installation process of Logos 4 ranks among one of my worst software experience, ranking right up there with Windows ME and Vista. The downloading of resources took a better part of two days and then having indexing stop at 5 minutes remaining for over one hour, I like a dummy, clicked YES on the Logos 4 update box, thinking it might be the last step required in the indexing process. This of course required me to start the whole index process over again. In total, it took me almost 3 days to totally install and set up the software! The installation process is the first impression that a person has with software, Window ME and Vista’s reputations were ruined in the first few weeks of their release, it did not matter how many “fixes” came after those first few weeks, the damage was already done. I hope that as I actually use Logos 4 I will have a positive experience, but up until now the experience has all been negative. In the future, let me offer the following suggestions:

1) Release a more complete product: The fact that my sales representative strongly suggested that I not order the DVD’s now, but rather wait for the second pressing speaks volumes. If the release version is so incomplete that I would be wasting my money on purchasing the first run of DVD’s, the program is not ready to be released to the public; it is still just a beta program.

2) Insure that your best customers have the best upgrade experience. The way you did things this time almost guaranteed that users with lots of resources would have a bad upgrade experience. Seeing how many resources I already have, the fact that I was purchasing the Portfolio upgrade and anticipating a high demand on your servers, Logos should have instructed your sales representatives to say something like this. “Mr. Larson seeing how many resources you have and anticipating a heavy demand on our servers I suggest you purchase the DVD rather than the download.” Not to sound too presumptuous, but there were creative ways to get DVD’s in the hands of your best, most loyal customers the day before or the day of the general public release. Your coffee mug special a few years ago really made me feel valued as a customer. Believe me you have more than made up for the expense of shipping that coffee mug to your best costumers by the good will it created. This experience, on the other hand, has been the total opposite, I feel like have been punished for having purchased too many resources--thrown under the bandwidth bus if you will. BTW as I am typing this I am installing on a second computer. It has taken all morning to download 7% of 15.8 GB and if I recall correctly I have a 7.2 GB and a 8.4 GB download to go before indexing can even start. At this rate I have 21 hours in downloading to look forward to!

3) I really do not mind the time required to index, when it worked correctly it only took 6 hours, and that seems like a reasonable payoff for faster searches. However, the fact that I had to restart the whole process is unacceptable. Just a quick review of the forum shows that my experience was not isolated. Simple things like preventing the program from updating while indexing is taking place, warning dialog boxes about not closing Logos or restating you computer until the indexing is finished. Perhaps temporarily preventing MS update from restarting the computer, I suspect that the IE 8 update Tuesday night may have messed up an indexing attempt that started that evening. The bottom line is that you know beforehand that indexing is going to be a huge time commitment for your customers. Do everything you can to protect that commitment.

Please take this feedback as expression of how I feel, not as an accusation about what you did or did not do. If I had a customer who felt as negative as I do about my experience with one of my products I would want to know. I am assuming that you want to know as well. Now that I have everything installed, downloaded and indexed, I can start using the program. I hope I can now offer some positive feedback soon.

 

In Christ’s Love,

Keith Larson

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 9:36 AM

Keith,

I am sorry you have had a bad experience so far, the download killing the indexing is a real pain, and am sure will be fixed very quickly.

if you have a external drive you can kill your download and save some time http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3193.aspx has a how install without download section

I hope and trust you will come to love Logos 4 as much as I do.

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 142
James Macleod | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 9:43 AM

This is all par for the course with new software releases. If you don't want to deal with stuff like this wait a couple weeks for the dust to settle. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. Logos is doing the best they can.

Posts 2255
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 9:47 AM

I too have been a long time user and loyal customer and have many resources.  I think Keith expressed the sentiments of others with his email.  The installation of L4 caused my computer not only to crash, but I have spent the last few days simply trying to make sure I don't lose my data before reformating the entire notebook.  This is the result of installing L4.  I have lost days of work.  I have been following the forum these past few days and I have not only one question:  will the upgrade prices for me remain the same if I chose not to purchase the upgrade price until the new year?  I am not ready to put in the time needed to deal with a public beta product.  I would rather wait a few months until the product is completely ready and I can be sure that when I install L4, I will be able to see a bibliography of resources that I can use to compare to my resources on L3 to make sure I have them all.  I remember how important it was to to this when I switched from L2 to L3.  

I cannot agree more, that installation should not take several days.  It should be smooth.  If gigabytes of information need to be downloaded, it is not possible for many with their internet or broadband packages to download that much in a months time.  

I end by repeating what Keith has said.  I love logos and still do.  I am on their side so to speak, and that is why such honest feedback is important.  If you spend thousands of dollars over the years on the product, then it shows loyalty and support for the Logos team. This program has revolutionized my Bible study and has helped me in the service the Lord has led me into.  And I have always been extremely impressed with Bob's leadership, part of the reason for my support.  His honesty and communication is the reason I suspect why many of us have not abandoned ship long ago.  

I am looking forward to L4.  From what I have so far seen, Bob has gone over the top.  He has produced a product that sets Logos head and shoulders above the competition (there is no competition).  But L4 is probably going to wait until I buy my next notebook which will probably be in January or February.  By then, I hope Logos has come out with service pack 1 or the equivalent, kinks have been worked out, and the program is ready for the world.  

Mark

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 10:22 AM

DominicM:

Keith,

I am sorry you have had a bad experience so far, the download killing the indexing is a real pain, and am sure will be fixed very quickly.

if you have a external drive you can kill your download and save some time http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3193.aspx has a how install without download section

I hope and trust you will come to love Logos 4 as much as I do.

 

 

Dominic,

I was planning to use Hooton's work around, but in the latest version of the setup program the downloading of resources begins before you ever get into the program. I have to say this version of the setup program is much better than what I experience on Monday. It gives much more feedback to the user, which was a complaint I gave to tech suppport at the time. It is good to know that Logos is listening to us. However, this means that Hooton's work around will not work.

I was also interested in see if the download times had improved, they have not. I feel I need to know how installation goes because a lot of people depend on my advice on using and purchasing Logos products. At this point I cannot recommend to anyone to purchase the download. In time download times should improve, but right now they are a nightmare.

I am sure I will l grow to love the program, but this is all about installation and first impressions. Right now in my opinion first impressions are not very good.

Keith

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 10:25 AM

Ok is now update first post second page http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3193.aspx

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 10:57 AM

Funny thing is, I NEVER get new software when it comes out from anyone.  

Windows has the same problems.

Mac has the same problems.

Thinking that somehow this is unique to Logos is just plain silly.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 1:17 PM

Keith, (and others)

Thanks for the feedback. I'm sorry you had trouble with the process and that it's taking so long. We (necessarily) made a lot of assumptions not only about the kind of computers our users had, but about what kind they would have when we reached the ship date. Combined with having to choose a technology platform and design architecture long before we could build enough of it to know what performance would really be like, it was easy to be off a bit.

And I think we were. Logos 4 is fantastic if you've got a high bandwidth Internet connection and a computer you bought last week. :-)

The good news is, a year from now, "last week" will be "a year ago", etc. We are definitely ready for the future, but at the price of some hassle for people stuck in today. As, alas, we all are. (I've got a laptop where it's a bit sluggish, too.)

(We also didn't anticipate netbooks, a strange exception to Moore's Law that offers shiny machines with less power and an operating system two generations back in time....)

We're sorry for the hassle and inconvenience, and hope you'll stick with us as continue to smooth the experience (we've got some ideas to improve indexing, etc.). It will only get better! :-)

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 1:36 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Keith, (and others)

Thanks for the feedback. I'm sorry you had trouble with the process and that it's taking so long. We (necessarily) made a lot of assumptions not only about the kind of computers our users had, but about what kind they would have when we reached the ship date. Combined with having to choose a technology platform and design architecture long before we could build enough of it to know what performance would really be like, it was easy to be off a bit.

And I think we were. Logos 4 is fantastic if you've got a high bandwidth Internet connection and a computer you bought last week. :-)

The good news is, a year from now, "last week" will be "a year ago", etc. We are definitely ready for the future, but at the price of some hassle for people stuck in today. As, alas, we all are. (I've got a laptop where it's a bit sluggish, too.)

(We also didn't anticipate netbooks, a strange exception to Moore's Law that offers shiny machines with less power and an operating system two generations back in time....)

We're sorry for the hassle and inconvenience, and hope you'll stick with us as continue to smooth the experience (we've got some ideas to improve indexing, etc.). It will only get better! :-)

 

Thanks for the reply and listening to our frustrations. It is interesting that you mentioned the reverse of Moore's Law. With the popularity of sub $500 laptops and desktops, along with the decline of the PC gaming industry, how resonable is it to expect tommorrows computers to have dedicated video cards? I fear not too many people will be purchasing computers which meet the 512 MB recommended video card requirement.

Posts 1162
Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 3:09 PM

P. Keith Larson:

Thanks for the reply and listening to our frustrations. It is interesting that you mentioned the reverse of Moore's Law. With the popularity of sub $500 laptops and desktops, along with the decline of the PC gaming industry, how resonable is it to expect tommorrows computers to have dedicated video cards? I fear not too many people will be purchasing computers which meet the 512 MB recommended video card requirement.

I'm running it on a laptop without a dedicated video card and it works great. I have Intel's x4500 integrated graphics which is basic for any laptop (but not netbook) built today. I bought mine 13 months ago for less than $700 so I don't think it's asking too much of users.

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 3:36 PM

TomReynolds:

I'm running it on a laptop without a dedicated video card and it works great. I have Intel's x4500 integrated graphics which is basic for any laptop (but not netbook) built today. I bought mine 13 months ago for less than $700 so I don't think it's asking too much of users.

My home desktop has an intergrated graphics card as well and L4 there are a couple of things I think my be limited by my lack of a video card. For example, I have noticed that there is a delay between opening recources when I use the right/left arrow key. It is very fast under L3, so I am thinking it is not the CPU or the Hard Drive that are the limiting factor, but the way L4 displays things. I am only guessing here, but something has changed. Clearly they must thing performance will improve with a 512MB card or they would not be recommending it. I am going to place a video card in this system and see if I notice a change in this and other actions.

Posts 9181
LogosEmployee

P. Keith Larson:

Clearly they must thing performance will improve with a 512MB card or they would not be recommending it. I am going to place a video card in this system and see if I notice a change in this and other actions.

A video card may not speed up the exact situation you mention, but in general it should allow much of the graphics of Logos 4 to be hardware rendered, not software rendered, freeing up your CPU to do more useful work.

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