The undeniably controversial pastor Mark Driscoll weighs in on Logos

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Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Sep 20 2011 4:31 AM

From his impromptu Facebook session on how he prepares sermons, pastor Mark Driscoll says, 

Mark Driscoll's Facebook Session on Sermon Prep:

Emma Thornett: "What do you do when you come across bits of the Bible you don’t understand? Wouldn’t it take longer than an hour to work through?"

"I find that prayer and listening helps me work through the harder parts of Scripture. I also use commentators and theologians to check my thoughts, but I always start with the Bible and prayer. 

Also, Logos is a lifesaver. I love it. Being able to read so many resources so fast and cut and paste sections and ideas saves me hundreds of hours a year in sermon prep. And it allows me to work outdoors and get fresh air." 

 

Although some of us won't be able to resist commenting on Pastor Driscoll's lightning-rod methods/doctrine/ethics/etc.... I was only aiming to share Yet Another Prestigious Person's (YAPP) endorsement of Logos. Wink  Full article is HERE.

 

 

"I read dead people..."

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P A | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 10:16 AM

 

Is Brother Mark , Mark Driscoll?Wink

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P A | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 10:16 AM

 

Is Brother Mark , Mark Driscoll?Wink

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 10:31 AM

That sure sounds like a 'spicy' question.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 11:26 AM

Thanks brother Mark for sharing. I enjoyed the article.

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Pat Flanakin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 11:37 AM

This is not necessarily directed at Pastor Driscoll.

I find it curious that those pastors today that find the technology and other resources a time-saving means of sermon prep utilize the resources through those tools which were created by theologians spending thousands of hours researching the Scripture to understand as much of it as they could, without apology.

Why do you think they spent so much time?  They could have sought shortcuts just as much as Pastor Driscoll.  As Solomon stated in Ecclesiastes, there is nothing new under the sun in terms of sin; therefore, laziness isn't a niche market.

I say this to indicate clearly that scholarship and theological study in the past doesn't excuse in-depth analysis and research still needed today.  The reason is, and this is always going to be the truth, even in heaven, that NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, can understand Scripture for you.  That is between you, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ...PERIOD.

When we utilize commentaries and other resources in place of in-depth understanding of the original languages, isagogics, exegesis, hermeneutics, etc... to prepare sermons and teach, then we have determined to allow the scholarship of others to "understand" Scripture for that pastor who should seek to understand it FIRST from Scripture, then compare and contrast to former and contemporaneous scholarship.

Commentaries and works of former theologians have a place and they are essential, yet, they are not there as a crutch, but as an assistant...and assistants do not do the work for you, but enable you to get the work done that you are responsible for.

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Pat Flanakin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 11:45 AM

Last thing...I am hard pressed to listen to a pastor who doesn't know the original languages because that pastor CANNOT on their own, exegete Scripture.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 9:27 PM

Pat Flanakin:

Last thing...I am hard pressed to listen to a pastor who doesn't know the original languages because that pastor CANNOT on their own, exegete Scripture.

Pat Flanakin:

I say this to indicate clearly that scholarship and theological study in the past doesn't excuse in-depth analysis and research still needed today.  The reason is, and this is always going to be the truth, even in heaven, that NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, can understand Scripture for you.  That is between you, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ...PERIOD.

So, if I understand scripture you would find it hard to listen if I could not exegete scripture? If my purpose was to touch your heart you may not listen unless it also touched your mind? I am not being critical, but I do not think that a knowledge of the original languages is a pre-requisite to understanding when that arises between myself and the Holy Spirit in combination with the knowledge of past scholarship (at least to the extent that I trust the English Bible(s) I use together with a little Logos research).

I could have a wrong understanding but I may still disagree with your interpretation from a knowledge of the original languages. If one were to preach "God hates divorce" from Mal 2:16 would anybody be wrong especially when EBC states "God succinctly gave his verdict: “I hate divorce.”"?  ESV does an end-run about that, HCSB has the man hating the wife, CEV has God hating the man and NKJV has God hating divorce!  At the end of the day it would depend if the emphasis is on Mal 2:16 or on the subject.

 

Dave
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Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 5:33 AM

I am very sorry Pat that you are unwilling to listen to a person who doesn't have the right education. Can you please interpret 1 Cor. 1:27 for me?

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 6:33 AM

I don't know ... I've read Pat's comment's several times. The final comment would seem to be a personal one.

But before he decided to expand his comments, I suspect there's quite a bit of truth in them. Especially about personal responsibility in studying.

My Dad preached for maybe 60 years. He had a stack of 3x5 cards that crossed over those 60 years, one for each sermon.

Recently I was down in Houston, showing him Logos and the text from soldiers near Arad, apparently while Babylon was busily paying Edom to needle Judah. But I asked him how long it took to prepare his sermons after 60 years. A few minutes?? Goodness, after preaching so many years. He said, no ... it took a full day.

I'm not sure how much greek and hebrew got mixed in. But that simple answer meant a lot.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 7:19 AM

As to the original languages, what about everyone sitting in the pew who doesn't know the original languages? are we then going to say that you should hold as suspect everything you learn on your own from scripture and pass it by someone with more knowledge? Are they incapable of exegesis scripture on their own? And how well does someone need to know the languages before the are able to handle the word of God competently. Do I need to be able to speak it fluently to truly understand the language?

As far as the time involved in studying scripture goes, I can sympathize with the caution. One of the dangers I first saw myself falling into as I relied more on Logos (both V3 and V4) for my study is that the Word had just enough time to get to my head, but not enough time to soak into my heart. So I knew it well enough to preach a message but not well enough to have my life visibly altered by that truth 2 weeks later. Meditation will always be important and meditation will always involve time.

That being said I would like to point out that, as far as I read, Mark Driscoll did not say that he only spent 1 hour on his message. I seem to recall that he said his message was a compilation of much reading outside of the message, though not directly connected to the message. I think it is quite possible to so live in the Word that its truths are right at your finger tips. So much so that when you sit to prepare a message truth does not have to be re-formulated, but that truth naturally flows out of what you have already learned. I pray God would move me towards such a place, and break down every distraction that would cause me to have to continually re-learn His truth.

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Charles Tondee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 7:39 AM

I agree with the sentiment that is being expressed, that study of God's word is to be thorough, and it should take time for that to happen. I do agree with some of the thoughts that are being expressed, especially complacency and laziness must be guarded against.

There is always the very real possibility of self-sufficiency when it comes to study or preaching God's word. I find study to be greatest when the Holy Spirit reveals to me just how much I didn't know about a passage that was familiar to me. It's not always in understanding the original language (though it might foster this) that it occurs this way, but usually as a product of prayer, study (original and english) contemplation, and meditation. 

I believe the call to preach is a call to be educated in all facets of Biblical knowledge, but we must not understate the Importance of the Holy Spirit (which i do not think anyone is; just making the point) - 1 Corinthians 1-3 really emphasize, that it's not the human capacity to understand or human wisdom, that produces anything but the Spirit's power to illuminate and reveal. Now that doesn't negate the responsibility to personally study, but places emphasis upon what's truly important.

Let's not forget about the apostles, just common ordinary individuals from all walks of life, in acts 4.13 the KJV says they recognized they were unlearned and ignorant men (uneducated, common ESV) but took notice that they had been with Jesus. God uses the weak (common and ordinary) to confound the strong (or for that matter wise). 

PS. Denise, thank you for sharing about your Father and his preparation; My father has been in the Ministry about 40 years and He studies constantly; He has given e a good example. It's funny my six year old came up to me the other day and commented "Daddy all you do is study, Why do you study all the time?" I hope to leave the same example of the Importance of Bible study to my children as my father left with Me.

To veer back on topic Logos is a great tool in study; it's only an instrument that when used correctly and effectively will aid in Bible study. 

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 7:42 AM

jtondee:
To veer back on topic Logos is a great tool in study; it's only an instrument that when used correctly and effectively will aid in Bible study. 

Yes

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 8:13 AM

I fear this discussion will generate more heat than light, but I'm jumping in anyway.

1)  Unlike Muslims, for whom the Koran is only the Koran if it is in the original Arabic, we Christians view translations of the Bible as the Bible. Back in Christian beginnings, we picked up the Greek Translation made by Hebrews in Alexandria and ran with it.  As easy as this general statement is to make, to apply this to specific cases is difficult.  To pick a favorite whipping boy, is the Jehovah's Witness' "New World Translation" the Bible?  If not, what about the mistranslations there are so bad to do this when there are gross mistranslations in many other translations which have been considered biblical?  To be honest, I would lean towards it not being biblical because it messes up the Christological message, but I can admit I may be wrong in this...

2)  It is certainly valuable to look at the Bible in the original languages.  It is an extremely useful tool to do so.  We disregard it at our peril.  But is it really necessary for true faith?  I would say it is not.  The simple sunday school teacher can be the person used to create and nurture faith in people.

3)  Logos Bible Software does remove some of the tedious work involved in exegesis.  But I want to echo Luther that reading books don't make a theologian, but rather living, dying, and being damned.  Logos is a useful tool when it connects me with people who have had struggles like I have had, so I can learn from their wisdom.  But it also is very easy to just quote things outside of writers contexts and to make them say something they do not.  I have no problem whatsoever when Logos lets me quickly investigate things, but recognize it does not remove me from the struggle to make sense of God and the World.

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 8:23 AM

Yes

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 9:44 AM

Kenneth McGuire:

I fear this discussion will generate more heat than light, but I'm jumping in anyway.

1)  Unlike Muslims, for whom the Koran is only the Koran if it is in the original Arabic, we Christians view translations of the Bible as the Bible. Back in Christian beginnings, we picked up the Greek Translation made by Hebrews in Alexandria and ran with it.  As easy as this general statement is to make, to apply this to specific cases is difficult.  To pick a favorite whipping boy, is the Jehovah's Witness' "New World Translation" the Bible?  If not, what about the mistranslations there are so bad to do this when there are gross mistranslations in many other translations which have been considered biblical?  To be honest, I would lean towards it not being biblical because it messes up the Christological message, but I can admit I may be wrong in this...

2)  It is certainly valuable to look at the Bible in the original languages.  It is an extremely useful tool to do so.  We disregard it at our peril.  But is it really necessary for true faith?  I would say it is not.  The simple sunday school teacher can be the person used to create and nurture faith in people.

3)  Logos Bible Software does remove some of the tedious work involved in exegesis.  But I want to echo Luther that reading books don't make a theologian, but rather living, dying, and being damned.  Logos is a useful tool when it connects me with people who have had struggles like I have had, so I can learn from their wisdom.  But it also is very easy to just quote things outside of writers contexts and to make them say something they do not.  I have no problem whatsoever when Logos lets me quickly investigate things, but recognize it does not remove me from the struggle to make sense of God and the World.

 

I agree that the original languages are not only useful, but would contend that for a minister of the word they are absolutely essential.  I am amazed when I hear some seem to indicate that they think prayer is the golden road to understanding a passage.  I sometimes wonder to whom some of these are really praying and must conclude in some cases that they are praying to themselves.  A passage can be understood from a translation providing that translation is accuarate in that passage (so stated because all translations fail at some point). Understanding a passage requires both an understanding of the meaning or the original text (which might possibly be gained through a translation) together with a deep consideration of its intent and therefore of its implications.  Sometimes I think we get too many sermons which are prepared in 10 minutes (perhaps a slight exaggeration).

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 9:57 AM

so, i'm getting the drift several of us have differences on matters related to Mark and/or the Bible and/or original languages.

could this get heated?  Yeah!

 

Will it?  NO!   because we are all thoughtful, logos forum abiding members. . .  Angel

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 10:08 AM

George Somsel:

I agree that the original languages are not only useful, but would contend that for a minister of the word they are absolutely essential.  I am amazed when I hear some seem to indicate that they think prayer is the golden road to understanding a passage.  I sometimes wonder to whom some of these are really praying and must conclude in some cases that they are praying to themselves.  A passage can be understood from a translation providing that translation is accuarate in that passage (so stated because all translations fail at some point). Understanding a passage requires both an understanding of the meaning or the original text (which might possibly be gained through a translation) together with a deep consideration of its intent and therefore of its implications.  Sometimes I think we get too many sermons which are prepared in 10 minutes (perhaps a slight exaggeration).

I would agree that a minister of the word SHOULD care enough about the word to want to know the original languages, but essential?  You are someone who has spent quite a time with the fathers.  Many of them didn't know Hebrew...  Many of the Latin Fathers didn't seem to consult the Greek much.  I would argue that languages are part of the "bene esse" rather than "esse".  I would add that when a minister of the word no longer sees this as being "bene", there is a problem.  Your point about the temptation to bow down and pray to our minds own idols rather than the true God, is, of course a valid one and certainly a danger in our culture.

Of course, feel free to disregard anything I say.  I'm not a minister of the word and so only speak for myself. <g>

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Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 10:12 AM

Pat, I understand what you are saying but times change and tools change, it doesn't necessarily mean people/pastors are being lazy who utilize them. As for not listening to Pastors who lack knowledge of original languages, I have not experienced any great revelation from these so called individuals who have attended seminary or Bible college, for many of them it seems the only original language that mattered was the good ol' King James language. I am not a schooled linguist when it comes to the Greek but I do try and use the tools I have available to me thru logos and find it fascinating how limited the English language is when it comes to expressing the true literal understanding of the scriptures. So many words we take for granted are not even in the Bible, such as Holy, Church and Trinity but yet their original language counterparts convey so much more about these words when used in their intended context and scope and historical/cultural setting.

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 10:30 AM

George Somsel:
  A passage can be understood from a translation providing that translation is accurate in that passage (so stated because all translations fail at some point).

I will certainly not debate the great value in knowing the original languages. I certainly wish I knew them better myself. However in the end, isn't everyone dependent upon a translation? Your comment about prayer and how we can end up "praying to ourselves" got me thinking about this. When I use a translation I am dependent upon the Translators understanding of the original languages and the biases they bring to the translation process. However if I knew Greek, I would simply be the translator in the process. Therefore rather then depending upon someone elses translating skills I am dependent on mine. Either way, that passage is being translated into the language I am using.

Study is important. Study is the natural product of someone who sincerely cares. But study without the Holy Spirit is nothing more then my opinion vs. someone elses. So why should I think my fallibility is less substantial then theirs? Holy Spirit + Careful study + Humility is a powerful combination. Logos can do great things for that Careful Study part.

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