Windows 8 & Logos- Logo's Team thoughts?

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Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Sep 22 2011 8:29 PM

Just curious what Bob and the Logos team think of the changes coming in Windows 8.... I know that we'll still be able to run legacy applications, but am curious long term how Logos might envision the future... in many ways the new format moves a lot to the cloud and web based apps... plans for that with Logos? Can we still have such incredible tools like what we have in Logos 4 based in HTML5... Not being a programmer, but one who tries to follow the tech trends, I'm just curious to know?

Confused

Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 8:31 PM

Guess I should proof read my posts. Ignore the second "how Logos". Also, I don't know why but I have a tendency any more to use the ellipses, and don't know why....

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 8:40 PM

You know that there is an edit option under the more button at the upper right of your post? Within a time limit, it is the anti-apology tool --> It allows you to fix your post (hide the evidence unless you've been quoted) before someone teases you for the error that they also are prone to.Wink

P.S. fixing includes the heading.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 8:47 PM

MJ,

Thanks I thought there was some place to do so, but didn't check under the little drop down. I will be better prepared to fix things in the future! and with one more post, I'm only 7000 posts behind you! Ah, and thanks for noticing my lack of an apostrophe. I'm blaming the dumbing down of Twitter and quick posts in my text messages for my less than stellar grammar.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 8:54 PM

Robert C. Kuefner Jr.:
I know that we'll still be able to run legacy applications, but am curious long term how Logos might envision the future...

Search for posts from CEO Bob Pritchett, some of which are captured here --> http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Speaks

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 9:20 PM

I know I read the future of Logos posts at some point in time, and it was a good reminder to read again Dave. I guess I was just curious about some of the more specific UI changes in Metro... thinking how prayer list, devotions, reading lists, etc. might appear in tiles, etc. or whatever cool things might be possible with a touch based system. Certainly harder with a pure text based system, though not having an ipad or a multi-touch device, I don't know how easy something like selecting text or highlighting might be. 

Blessings!

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 10:04 PM

Robert - 

I preface my comments by giving a full disclaimer: I am a Mac Fanboy. I have not owned a PC for 10 years, nor do I intend to do so... Smile I am, however, interested in tech things and was reading up on Metro. It is my understanding that Win 8 for Tablets (i.e. "Metro") will not run ANY windows applications at all. This info comes from the president of the Windows division, who said: "We've been very clear since the very first CES demos and forward that the ARM product won't run any x86 applications..." In other words, Metro will only run web based metro apps.

You can read an article about it HERE

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 11:46 PM

The ipad doesnt run OSX apps, why should anyone expect Micro$ofts new smartpad os to run win32 apps, its unrealistic IMO.

There will be a seperate (64bit) PC operating system as well (as I read it), and the tablet PC's will run the PC Software.. as for legacy stuff, I imagine there will be emulators like "Virtual Box" or "Vmware" around for many years to come.. 

and smartpad users will run metro...

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 23 2011 7:12 AM

I watched the Build Presentation by Sinofsky and know that Arm based tablets won't run legacy Windows applications, but will be able to run apps, which I'm assuming Logos will probably make like they do for Android and iOS... I do know that the Metro interface though will be the UI for not just ARM, but also the PC with regular architecture, such as an Intel based laptop, computer or tablet... which would be able to run a legacy application like Logos4.

 I'm just wondering what additional changes or things might be a part of these new changes ahead. For Windows users, they should be able to use Logos4 as it currently is on their computers when Windows 8 comes out, though they will also be able to run an app (assuming Logos will create one) that will run on ARM, their Windows Phone and even on their laptop and computers with Windows 8 running on it (and Windows 8 requires less system requirements than 7 from the sounds of it) if they don't want to load their Logos4. Kind of the best of both worlds... and they can pin the Logos 4 application to the tiles in the Metro UI if it is a computer, notebook or tablet that is essentially a computer and not a device, like ARM based devices. As for virtualization, it sounds like Windows 8 will have that as a part of it.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 23 2011 7:29 AM

I wouldn't count on any Metro app until MSFT actually sells some tablets. Metro does look more promising than other attempts, but their track record leaves something to be desired. Meanwhile, some estimates  have MSFT selling only a fraction of the tablets that Apple and Google will be selling.

Read more HERE.

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Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 5 2011 8:34 PM

alabama24:

Robert - 

I preface my comments by giving a full disclaimer: I am a Mac Fanboy. I have not owned a PC for 10 years, nor do I intend to do so... Smile I am, however, interested in tech things and was reading up on Metro. It is my understanding that Win 8 for Tablets (i.e. "Metro") will not run ANY windows applications at all. This info comes from the president of the Windows division, who said: "We've been very clear since the very first CES demos and forward that the ARM product won't run any x86 applications..." In other words, Metro will only run web based metro apps.

You can read an article about it HERE

With the march of time, it has become clearer that--for now--MS intends to allow Win7 Legacy apps to run on devices using Intel processors, and probably accessed through a "desktop" app on the Metro interface.  ARM processors will only run the Metro--although I'd not be shocked if someone didn't find a way to create an "Intel" VM...it just might be really pokey on a low-voltage ARM.  The intention being to keep ties to the past until code bases are Metro-ized.  

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 27 2012 7:35 AM

Convertible netbooks and laptops running x86 CPUs will run Win 8 and offer support for both Metro and traditional Windows apps. I'm using Logos 4 on a Tablet PC and thoroughly enjoying the experience. Its nice to be handwriting on it and interacting with the program by pointing and dragging with the stylus. I'm getting better than 99% accuracy.

Posts 8
Brian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2012 7:52 AM

Metro will run on Windows Phones, Windows Tablets and Windows Netbooks, Laptops & Desktops. 

Only Intel / AMD processors will be able to run legacy desktop applications.

It therefore makes sense for companies to consider writing Metro apps so that one app can exist on any devise bearing an MS OS. As another author mentioned, this distinction did not stop Logos from creating an iOS and an OSX platform...

So are there any plans for a Metro App?

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Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 6:39 AM

DominicM:

The ipad doesnt run OSX apps, why should anyone expect Micro$ofts new smartpad os to run win32 apps, its unrealistic IMO.

There will be a seperate (64bit) PC operating system as well (as I read it), and the tablet PC's will run the PC Software.. as for legacy stuff, I imagine there will be emulators like "Virtual Box" or "Vmware" around for many years to come.. 

and smartpad users will run metro...

 

Until MS made this clear I expected it. The primary desire of Windows users for a win tablet is the ability to run windows apps. We don't need another iPad wannabe. MS is making a big mistake in this point and it will make the win8 tablet a footnote in computer history.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 2:10 PM

I hate to throw a wet blanket on the cloud parade, but...

First, cloud has always been with us, from the days when I first started in the IT industry installing TN3270 term cards in Z100's running DR CP/M. Next it was called thin client/middleware/SQL. Then it was called virtual desktop. Today it's called software as a service (SaaS), platform as a service (PaaS really just virtual desktop all over again!), and infrastructure as a service (IaaS). These things are littered all over my slides today, so I know they're out there, and I know what impact they're having. I have to design networks around them every day.

Second, cloud hasn't ever, and won't ever, take over the world. I well remember the presentations in the middleware revolution extolling the benefits of remote data and local processing. Now we're being told we should go for local data and remote processing, or even remote data and remote processing. Remote data will always be great for simple stuff like watching a movie, reading a book, or listening to music. Remote data will always stink for things like building software, engineering bridges, and creating new content.

Third, no-one has sorted through the intellectual property problems with cloud. Every SaaS product in the world essentially steals your copyright, your ideas, and your privacy the moment you put your fingers on the keyboard. It's only going to take a couple of notable cases before someone starts to notice this --half of Google's game is to get millions of users to generate content for free that they can turn around and sell for real money.

Fourth, we've not yet started to consider how this idea of owning nothing intellectually will really impact our world. Already there's a revolution in the way we think --read The Shallows. People are already having problems reading a post of more than 100 words or listening to a lecture of more than about 12 minutes --much less actually writing complete sentences. Is this a process we, as Christians, should really be embracing as strongly as we appear to be?

So, my bottom line take --as someone who has coded applications and protocols, designed protocols, written books, designed new (patented) technologies, and generally "been around the block a couple of times" --cloud is here to stay for some things, and not for others. Entertainment will always be the province of cloud, serious work will always require local data/local processing. For people who just do email, some light presentation work, listen to music, and read, iPad devices will rule. And that market will be huge, no doubt --particularly as our society dumbs down ever more quickly into the quagmire of letting others (software developers and experts in the government) do our thinking for us.

IMHO, MS is going the wrong direction with Win8 --no-one wants to type books on an application designed for portable devices with small screens and only touch displays. No-one wants to engineer a bridge, or write a millions lines of code on one to develop a new application, either. And yes, I've told the product people at the highest levels at MS this very thing. The funny thing is, they know there's a problem here --it's obvious from the uneasiness in their faces when they talk about this stuff.

The question before Logos is, in my mind: Does Logos want to be a serious research tool pushing towards the high end of what local processing/local data can do? Or does Logos want to be a consumer device --the iTunes of the Bible world? I think that right now Logos is conflicted --they have two ideas, and they're often not certain which one is which.

On the one hand, I think they believe, right now, that they can do both on the same software. That they can tap into the huge new consumer market without losing any of the serious research market. On the other hand, my impression is that Logos thinks the serious side of computing is actually going to go away, to be replaced by the much larger consumer market. That people simply won't want, or need, local processing/local data any longer.

This is also driven by what their customers (us) are asking for --more synchronization, making the web app and the Android app and the iPhone app all look just like the desktop application. We're effectively saying, "don't focus on new ideas in ways to do search, just get my notes synchronized on all the apps, and get me more books and resources!"

Maybe it's time for us --we, as a user community, to sit and think about this some. What is it we're asking Logos to be? A cloud app with a daily reading schedule and text only synchronized notes? A Bible presentation package? A serious and specialized research tool that allows us to search a wide array of information quickly, and works towards helping us do the research needed for sermon preparation, book writing, and research papers?

Do we want "Bible 2.0," a replacement for the Bible we already carry in our hands, or a research tool that takes us to new depths of study, and new heights in our understanding? Are we asking for an overgrown app, or a real application level tool?

I would say the choice is up to us. I know what I'd choose --there are plenty of "Bible 2.0's" out there, but there are few really good research tools that help me write papers and books. I want a tool, not an "app." I would prefer Logos add more lower level tools to Vyrso as an app, and then find new ways to do research (even if it means more complexity) in a real desktop application.

Russ

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 3:24 PM

[Quote]:  "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

The bulk of computer users today have grown up with what we have and the proficient ones take for granted the overhead we all have with the current paradigm.

But there are many others out there; probably more than the current user base; that want a computer experience that is more like an white ware appliance; no need for manuals, looking for drivers, constant upgrades.  They just want to drive a car with no idea what is under the bonnet. 

If Windows evolves in that direction it's a good thing.  Less effort devoted to maintaining the system and more resource can be applied by users to the tasks that they really want to get on with... like bible study!    ;-)

I'm sure the more tech savvy user will still find a way to tinker, so all can be happy.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 3:38 PM

Russ White:

Do we want "Bible 2.0," a replacement for the Bible we already carry in our hands, or a research tool that takes us to new depths of study, and new heights in our understanding? Are we asking for an overgrown app, or a real application level tool?

Russ

I don't see why Logos can't be both.  I use it as Bible 2.0 for my daily devotionals and I use it for our home bible study group to dig deeper.  I like that its the same user interface for both.  It means a lower learning curve for me. 

Having said that, Logos has been positioned as the serious bible student's tool from the outset.  Its been pretty successful too.  AFAIK, its got the largest market share amongst all bible software applications. 

It just needs further work in making serious word studies and other linguistic tools even easier to access and use.  Maybe this is a limitation imposed by the state of linguistic studies but nonetheless there is a treasure trove of stuff that can bring insight to all readers.

I'd like to see Logos become so easy to use that my elderly Uncle (who attended seminary when he was young, 60 years ago) or my soon-to-be 8 year old son wouldn't think twice to pick up Logos and do some serious study. 

Christians don't study enough and if we could remove the complexity to make the pearls easier to find then we would all be the richer.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 7:30 PM

Tony Kan:
I don't see why Logos can't be both.  I use it as Bible 2.0 for my daily devotionals and I use it for our home bible study group to dig deeper.  I like that its the same user interface for both.  It means a lower learning curve for me. 

Because the same user interface won't work on a portable device and a desktop where you can have four or five windows, tabs, and etc. --it's a simple real estate problem. This is precisely the problem MS is having with Windows 8; there's no clear way to make something as complex as Excel work on a small touch device.

Right now Logos has two products, one that's more "general reading," and "light research," and the other of which is a full blown research tool. The question becomes --at some point in the future, when Logos is resource constrained, which do we, the users, care more about?

Tony Kan:
I'd like to see Logos become so easy to use that my elderly Uncle (who attended seminary when he was young, 60 years ago) or my soon-to-be 8 year old son wouldn't think twice to pick up Logos and do some serious study. 

I understand what you want to do, but, in reality, there are only three choices here:

1. The software can do simple stuff for users who have the skill set required to do those simple things, but has the ability to turn on more complex tools as the user learns.

2. The software can do complex stuff for users --far beyond their skill set-- but this means the coder is doing the "thinking" for the person, and spitting out the answers the coder thinks the user wants. Think about how Google works, or Facebook. They determine what they think you want to see, and cut out the results they don't think you want to see (or they don't want you to see). Is this what you think Logos should be doing?

3. The software is like a tool box from the start, with lots of tools all over the place, but in order to build a play set or a house, you have to know what every tool actually does, how to use it, what the right materials are, etc.

The folks who are pushing cloud say #2 is the answer --you tell the iPad you want to "design" a bridge, and it does all the "hard work" for you. Of course, the iPad isn't doing the "hard work," a coder someplace did the hard work, and programmed it into the software on some server the iPad is accessing. Hence you're always building the bridge the coder wants and likes, not the one you want to build, or the one you think is right.

In terms of sermons and study, sure you can write software that builds sermons for you, so even an 8 year old could go write a sermon. But what you're doing is letting the coders write all the sermons in the world.

#1 is the only realistic solution, but mobile device interfaces just flat don't have the real estate needed to support the user interface, and the network can't really (ever) support complex user interfaces and data transmission rates required to make #1 work (and here you'll just have to trust me --I'm working on a lot of networks where they're trying to go to virtual desktop --the first thing we have to do is quadruple the bandwidth in their network just to have a hope of making it work).

So we wind up with #2 by default. And while the world cries "that's wonderful!," I just cry for all those people who are turning their creativity and brain cells over to a programmer someplace. They might be nice coders, and they might even believe the same things I believe --it doesn't really matter.

If your 8 year old really wants to study the Scriptures, he's going to eventually have to learn how to use the tool box. Anything that tells him he doesn't have to learn real tools to really study the Scriptures --that he doesn't have to do the hard work of actually reading, comprehending, and assimilating the information because the computer is doing all that for him-- is just shunting his growth down the road someplace.

Again, read The Shallows. The author has a bad worldview so the solutions he presents won't work, but his analysis of the problem is absolutely dead on.

Russ

 

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JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 5:18 AM

Russ White:
I hate to throw a wet blanket on the cloud parade, but...  [&etc.]

That was an excellent post(s).  Thank you.

Wait ...

you're saying that my electronic Bible study results may only be showing "answers" that coders and commentators think are correct?  And that I still need to do the hard work of verification and consistency checking so that I am not building a patchwork theological belief system full of holes and contradictions based upon whatever I subjectively accept as correct?

No thanks ... I just want to push a button and have the 'correct' answers pop up on my screen.

Click here to play this video

 

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

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LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 9:36 AM

Russ, I love hearing your perspective on this. I hope you won't mind my engaging this particular debate more deeply, because I think it's really interesting and useful. (If this is too long, the Logos-specific answers are at the bottom!)

Russ White:
So, my bottom line take --as someone who has coded applications and protocols, designed protocols, written books, designed new (patented) technologies, and generally "been around the block a couple of times" --cloud is here to stay for some things, and not for others.

I agree. There's rarely anything new, and even the new stuff is just old stuff re-hashed. There's not a lot different about today's Kindle that wasn't true of the Rocket eBook in 1998. Just minor differences: E-ink screens, long battery life, a free 3G cell phone network for downloading ebooks anywhere, and a device that weighs a tenth as much. 

I head people saying in 1998 that nothing would ever substitute for the paper book. 'The feel, the easy interface, the smell, the weight in my hand, etc. etc. etc. These eBooks are a fad.' And in 1998 all those people were right.

I have heard the same stuff recently, around the Kindle's arrival. And this time, those people are wrong. And the funny thing is, some of the people who believe it most strongly (and wrongly) now are the people who just a decade ago were right about the exact same thing. And they didn't change; the world did.

I highly recommend Clay Shirky's book "Here Comes Everybody." In it, he says:

For us, no matter how deeply we immerse ourselves in new technology, it will always have a certain provisional quality. Those of us with considerable real-world experience are often at an advantage relative to young people, who are comparative novices in the way the world works. The mistakes novices make come from a lack of experience. They overestimate mere fads, seeing revolution everywhere, and they make this kind of mistake a thousand times before they learn better. But in times of revolution, the experienced among us make the opposite mistake. When a real once-in-a-lifetime change comes along, we are at risk of regarding it as a fad.

…young people are taking better advantage of social tools, extending their capabilities in ways that violate old models not because they know more useful things than we do but because they know fewer useless things than we do. I’m old enough to know a lot of things just from life experience. I know that newspapers are where you get your political news and how you look for a job. I know that music comes from stores. I know that if you want to have a conversation with someone, you call them on the phone. I know that complicated things like software and encyclopedias have to be created by professionals. In the last fifteen years I’ve had to unlearn every one of those things and a million others, because they have stopped being true. I’ve become like the grown-ups arguing in my local paper about calculators; just as it took them a long time to realize that calculators were never going away, those of us old enough to remember a time before social tools became widely available are constantly playing catch-up. Meanwhile my students, many of whom are fifteen years younger than I am, don’t have to unlearn those things, because they never had to learn them in the first place.

The advantage of youth, however, is relative, not absolute. Just as everyone eventually came to treat the calculator as a ubiquitous and invisible tool, we are all coming to take our social tools for granted as well. Our social tools are dramatically improving our ability to share, cooperate and act together. As everyone from working biologists to angry air passengers adopts those tools, it is leading to an epochal change.

Yes, cloud computing is just client-server come back around. It's exactly the same thing, with only minor differences. Like the fact that client-server technologies involved heavy, bulky client terminals physically tethered by a network cable or a land-line phone line. And today's "cloud" uses ubiquitous wireless signals that talk to client devices that weigh 6 ounces, keep a charge for 24 hours, and are presently carried in the pocket or purse of nearly everyone over the age of 13 in the developed world.

Other than that, client-server and cloud are exactly the same.

Russ, the funny thing is that my instincts are just like yours. I've been deeply immersed in the computer industry for almost 30 years, and I too have enough experience to know that a lot of what gets the kids excited these days is a bad idea we've already tried. Which is why it's so important to keep an open mind and to keep re-evaluating the bigger context for fundamental changes that make bad ideas good at last. Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

 

I think there's one more piece to the puzzle than the communications, weight, and battery improvements I've already mentioned: it's "big data." A lot of problems that demand local computing and the rich user interface you can offer on a large, local display have changed in nature. Data is now a component of many "big problems", and big data often doesn't fit locally.

For years I was just as big a "local computing" fan as you are. My pet example was mapping: "Sure, it's cool that you can use Google maps to generate directions to any point," I'd say. "But when you have to do something difficult, like plan a 50 stop road trip across America in an RV [which Logos did], or schedule a fleet of delivery vehicles for optimal routes, you need desktop mapping software with rich interface where you can drag route lines, draw shapes, load up spreadsheets of data, etc."

And that was true -- all through the 90's and until recently. But now any serious mapping problem would want traffic data integrated into the solution. Any fleet manager would want dynamic re-routing based on real-time traffic incidents. Anyone researching a GIS problem wants integrated satellite imagery of any point on the earth at their fingertips. And while I could get an annually updated CD-ROM with all of America's roads, no CD-ROM could hold all the imagery of America at 3 meter resolution. No local computer could store it, or sort and aggregate the real-time reports of thousands of cars reporting back their GPS location over cellular networks for real-time traffic analysis on roads without sensors.

Building a bridge? Your local CAD solution may be enough, though I imagine you'll want all the drawings live-synced to the cloud so the engineers can collaborate. And I'll bet there'll be a "big data" component to bridge design sometime in the future.

 

So what does this mean for Logos? 

Russ White:
Does Logos want to be a serious research tool pushing towards the high end of what local processing/local data can do?

Yes. We are still committed to high-end tools for people who do "real work" sitting at their desk with a "real computer" and a keyboard. I just got a 30" display -- I understand what you can and can't do on a phone or tablet screen. I completely agree that cloud solutions simplify things, make decisions on your behalf, and limit your options in exchange for convenience.

We have teams of scholars working on some incredible databases. We have programmers working on amazing tools. In the next version of Logos you will see a couple completely new search options which do spectacular things for the few and proud real users who will invest in understanding something very complicated and very powerful.

antonym(word1=Gloss,word2=Antonym), Gloss < Antonym, token(reference=Ref,lemma=Lemma,gloss=Gloss), token(reference=Ref,lemma=AntLemma,gloss=Antonym).

Does that meet your need for

Russ White:
...new ways to do research (even if it means more complexity) in a real desktop application.

? :-)

(But, I must confess, there's a catch... running that query (and the others this new system supports) in any reasonable time frame -- which we can do now -- requires a massive amount of data running on a server with massive amounts of memory. So while we could deliver it to your local machine, you'd need to dedicate 16 gigs of RAM to the query processing system. So our present plan is to build a rich, desktop UI for this -- no iPhone interface planned! -- but actually send the queries to a dedicated server in the cloud with massive memory and SSD hard drives. The result set will be sent back to you and delivered in a rich local UI you can manipulate on your own machine.)

Russ White:
Or does Logos want to be a consumer device --the iTunes of the Bible world?

Yes. We are going to serve consumers, too, with things like our mobile applications, web sites, and some exciting new things we'll be announcing in the next few weeks. And your analysis is correct: what we're doing is very much a "'Bible 2.0,' a replacement for the Bible we already carry in our hands." (You're so corect it's a bit spooky -- just wait a couple weeks and you'll see...)

Russ White:
I think they believe, right now, that they can do both on the same software.

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

Yes, we do encounter difficulties. Our massive data type system and Bible versification data sets, for example, are literally too large to deliver to today's mobile devices. So our mobile apps have to use some shortcuts, make some assumptions, and occasionally be less precise when navigating obscure texts while offline. If you need to do "real work" on comparing ancient texts, you'll want the desktop Logos Bible Software. 

Russ White:
On the other hand, my impression is that Logos thinks the serious side of computing is actually going to go away, to be replaced by the much larger consumer market. That people simply won't want, or need, local processing/local data any longer.

No, we don't believe it's going away. We do believe the market is changing, though. It used to be that 100% of people who used a computer for Bible study were desktop computer users (and, generally, technically minded people -- because you didn't own a computer in 1992 if you weren't into them). Soon, 90% of "computer use" will be phones, tablets, and appliances. Our old customer base will be just 10% of the market.

The good news is that in absolute numbers, the desktop / technical audience is bigger than ever. It's just being dwarfed as a percentage by all the new "computer users" who have entered the market. In 1992 these people just weren't using computers.

So will you see Logos giving a lot of attention to consumers and casual Bible students / readers? Yes. Because they outnumber you 10 (or 100?) to 1.

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

And of course, that's just for the sake of argument -- we have most of our resources on the desktop right now, and even our mobile / consumer-facing resources are simply leveraging the same underlying data and code, delivering it to a different user interface and form factor.

Russ White:
Are we asking for an overgrown app, or a real application level tool?

I think we can deliver both. While we'll have many "overgrown app" users in the future, we can continue to serve the "real application level" users, too. And even more importantly, while every "app" user may not be a "desktop power user", I believe that almost every "desktop power user" will also, at times, be an "app" user. The cloud is what lets us offer the right tool at the right time -- with your data right there -- to these dual-identity users.

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