Weird pricing...
http://www.logos.com/product/5965/sahidic-coptic-collection
retails at £83.50 GBP
Bought separately, the 3 volumes come to £63.60
Is this an example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts :-)
Andy
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I found two other collections like that last Christmas, so it's not unique. Always check all possible prices before you buy anything at Logos. Sometimes a single book costs more than a collection with that book included. Sometimes a collection costs more than all the books bought separately.
And they lie about it too:
How's this a discount?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Andy / fgh ... I feel even more foolish than normal. Thank you ever so much.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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fgh said:
Sometimes a single book costs more than a collection with that book included.
I discovered the same thing with the Amplified Bible. It is $39.95 when bought separately but is $29.99 when bought with the NAS Library. Even though I already had all of the other books I bought the NAS and Logos 4 treated them as updates.0 -
I've brought this thread to the attention of Logos.
However, I did figure it out ... they are charging you for the virtual box of a boxed set.[:O]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
they are charging you for the virtual box of a boxed set.
It's virtually a collectors item.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
I don't think it's good practice to make the assumption that "...they lie about it too."fgh said:I found two other collections like that last Christmas, so it's not unique. Always check all possible prices before you buy anything at Logos. Sometimes a single book costs more than a collection with that book included. Sometimes a collection costs more than all the books bought separately.
And they lie about it too:
How's this a discount?
Considering all that is on the site, differences in price can be easily overlooked. I think a better approach is to ask Logos why there is a difference in price. Then corrections or explanations can be made.
John A. Taylor - L5 Portfolio+++ = A Great Library!
"A life in His love and fellowship will make prayer to Him the natural expression of our soul's life." ~ Andrew Murray
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John A. Taylor said:
I don't think it's good practice to make the assumption that "...they lie about it too."
Where I come from we call a lie a lie.
In fact, where I come from we'd also call this 'fraud' and 'a crime'. Especially when it happens over and over and over again. But it seems that in the US truth doesn't mean a thing, and you can tell your customers whatever you want, no matter how false and deceitful, without either legal consequences or anyone being upset.
I am so sick of not being able to trust a single word Logos tells me, and having to spend endless hours verifying every one of them. It is their job to make sure that the statements they make are true, and neither false, deceitful or misleading. I shouldn't have to suspect and double-check everything. I should be able to trust what they tell me. But I can't.
Correction: there is actually one statement I have so far been able to trust: "Your credit card has been charged".
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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In my opinion I don't think that Logos is outright lying to their customers. I just think that with so many resources bundles and packages it can be easy to make mistakes.
I do agree that it is important to check and double check prices. Logos' products are not cheap and therefore, when a considerable amount of money is invested it should be done carefully.
Although a little off topic, but it has to do with Logos' pricing. I just bought the Gospel Origins Collection on their Daily Twitter deal for considerably less than the $500 it would have cost me on Amazon.
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Peace and Every Blessing to fgh!
Please consider deleting or extensively editing your post. Please!
Such a post leaves us with a very unpleasant "sour grapes" experience!
Please. I find it hard to believe you are serious, and yet what you write is very serious indeed!
2 Thessalonians 3:16
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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fgh said:
Where I come from we call a lie a lie.
In the USA, to "lie" carries the connotation of intentionally misleading
another by promoting a falsehood as a fact. I seem to use the third
definition found in the dictionary.com entry (As you seem to do.) I was raised outside of the USA. Colloquially speaking, Logos is not lying, they are just making mistakes. With as many products as they have listed it should be expected there will be inaccurate statements. My wife maintains giving false information you believe to be true is not
telling a lie, whereas I maintain giving any information that is untrue
is telling a lie. I think we need to be less accusatory when cultural differences abound.lie [lahy]
Show IPA noun, verb, lied, ly·ing. noun
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
an inaccurate or false statement.verb (used without object)
to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.
to express what is false; convey a false impression.
Consider the possibility the retail prices of the three books have recently been lowered and the editor of the pricing structure missed adjusting the collection price.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ignoring fgh is the best response, friends. He or she continues to post things like this. Just don't respond.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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In defense of the good old US of A, a pattern of mispricing in most states does have a legal liability, irrespective of intent. And so, states employ folks to compare prices charged at the register to shelf pricing, check service stations for pumping accuracy, etc.
Then there's the issue of knowing of error(s) and not correcting them, which similarly involves the same principle.
In this specific instance (and my memory is not always correct), the collection was 'first', followed by the breakout. At least that's my recollection when I got the collection.
If that were true(?), the loss would then be Logos', with an unintended discount on the breakout. Others may have differing memories.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Such a post leaves us with a very unpleasant "sour grapes" experience!
How come it is my post that gives you a sour grapes experience, and not the thought of all those people who have been deceived into paying too much?
Milford Charles Murray said:I find it hard to believe you are serious
I find it hard to believe how little Americans care about truth.
Super Tramp said:Consider the possibility the retail prices of the three books have recently been lowered and the editor of the pricing structure missed adjusting the collection price.
I certainly would, if it was a one time thing, but it isn't. Hardly a day goes by when Logos doesn't tell me multiple things that are at best misleading and usually downright false. They simply don't care enough about being 100% truthful to make sure they get things right and don't deceive people.
Super Tramp said:My wife maintains giving false information you believe to be true is not telling a lie, whereas I maintain giving any information that is untrue is telling a lie.
If you've seriously tried to check your facts and express yourself as clearly and truthfully as you can, then it's a mistake (though it may still be a crime, especially for a company, and especially if customers have lost money because of it). If you're routinely sloppy with the truth, then it's a lie. And Logos, unfortunately, is very sloppy with the truth.
Denise Barnhart said:If that were true(?), the loss would then be Logos'
The loss would be the buyer's who looked at one resource, believed that line about getting a discount if buying the whole collection, and bought it, without checking the prices for the other two.
Plus it could still be the collection that was overpriced from the start.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Jerry Bush said:
Ignoring fgh is the best response, friends. He or she continues to post things like this. Just don't respond.
Jerry
fgh (a she) is a respected member of the forum community who is probably shaking her head at the response to her post. English is a second (or third or fourth) language for her. At the very least, Logos again was sloppy - not paying attention to detail. While native speakers would likely use "falsehood" rather than "lie", it's not a crime to misuse language. I just had to correct one of my posts which said "copywrite" rather than "copyright" ... and I'm an educated, ancient, native-speaker.[:$]
Yes, fgh is coming across as defensive but with reason - so yes, let the subject drop but with the recognition that there is some truth behind what she is trying to say even if she is not saying it as you would.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What constitutes a respected member? One who shares your theological leanings?MJ. Smith said:fgh (a she) is a respected member of the forum community
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Sorry for the confusion on this. Sometimes prices change for individual titles, and the changes don't get updated everywhere correctly. We'll get it fixed as soon as possible.
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Paul Oertly said:
One who shares your theological leanings?
You're not even pointed the right direction as to what I mean by "respected" ... think more along the lines of listening to others, helpful, honest, reliable, humble ... not every respected member meets all the characteristics all of the time. And I do leave space for curmudgeonly respect.[;)]
P.S. I'm Catholic which means I don't even expect those with whom I worship to share my theological leanings. We are proudly all over the board.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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fgh said:Milford Charles Murray said:
I find it hard to believe you are serious
I find it hard to believe how little Americans care about truth.
You err, fgh, in your basic assumption that I am an American. Also, I think, you err in your gereralisation that Americans care little about truth.
At least you appear to assume that I am an American. That is untrue! Of course not a lie, but untrue! I am most certainly NOT an American.
My problem, fgh, is not with your problem regarding Logos that you are decrying; but, rather, it comes across to me that your attitude is quite hostile toward Logos, and I think that is undeserved -- at least from all my dealings with Logos for over 15 years.
I agree with MJ that you have been a respected member of these Forums; and I'm pleased that she posted that "caution" lest we get carried away.
I'm a human being with sins and errors and weaknesses that I give to our gracious God daily for forgiveness and correction and healing, at least I try to since I still have to struggle with the old person in me. I aim to try to keep St. Paul's admonition to me in Romans 14:19 and also Romans 12:18. I don't find that easy, but I do try!
Also, during really bad days I do end up being a lot grumpier than I should be; and I have a lot of patience and tolerance to others having bad days. Which is why I asked, trying to be polite to please edit your original post.
Thank you for considering that! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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fgh said:
If you've seriously tried to check your facts and express yourself as clearly and truthfully as you can, then it's a mistake (though it may still be a crime, especially for a company, and especially if customers have lost money because of it). If you're routinely sloppy with the truth, then it's a lie. And Logos, unfortunately, is very sloppy with the truth.
WoW! Now it is a crime!? Please think of it this way: You visit the Logos headquarters in Bellingham, WA and get a city directory/map from the local Chamber of Commerce. That directory may have been printed 5 years ago and lists statistics and demographics for the city that were all correct at the time of printing. The maps in the directory may misdirect you to an old address for the Logos operations. You could accuse "those dirty, lying, deceitful Americans" for the erroneous directory, or you could be a little bit grateful the business community at least tried to offer some information.
fgh said:I find it hard to believe how little Americans care about truth.
It is hard to believe Europeans are so good at judging motives & intent. [:D] We Americans just shake our heads in bewilderment rather than try to ascribe conscious malice to a business endeavor. We learned a long time ago to believe only half of what we see and none of what we read. (And we can tell when a politician is lying by whether or not his lips are moving.)
If every single mistake were all in Logos' favor, I would start to wonder if their business ethics were sliding a bit. But the truth is, Logos has made mistakes that cost them money. They honor their word to their own hurt. They have on several occasions repaired problems that I have created just to save me money.
It is disconcerting that some buyers may have paid more than they needed to. But we can assume they are all adult customers (buying with credit cards.) If they don't give due diligence to their purchasing decisions, their credit card companies will deal worse with them than Logos ever will. When I buy groceries I may find choosing three of the regular sizes of a product has a cheaper unit price than getting one of the "Family size Super-Saver" boxes.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Is this your final edit to this post? Most know that you are Catholic...and so is fgh. That was my original point. Birds of a feather.MJ. Smith said:P.S. I'm Catholic
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Super Tramp said:
It is hard to believe Europeans are so good ...... We Americans just shake our heads
Hey Super Tramp - you missed the obvious. A chunk of Americans are just Europeans a few generations from home[;)] Of course, there is a little question of when Europeans arrived in Europe.[:P] So now that we have established the facts:
- we are all people
- we all derive from the same first people
- we are all flawed
- this far we all share a theological viewpoint ...
Looks like no reason at all to take or give offense.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Super Tramp said:
It is hard to believe Europeans are so good ...... We Americans just shake our heads
Hey Super Tramp - you missed the obvious. A chunk of Americans are just Europeans a few generations from home
Of course, there is a little question of when Europeans arrived in Europe.
So now that we have established the facts:- we are all people
- we all derive from the same first people
- we are all flawed
- this far we all share a theological viewpoint ...
Looks like no reason at all to take or give offense.
No offense intended. fgh introduced the blanket statement (criticism?) against Americans. I would agree there is a lot more in common among Europeans, Americans, Australians (even Canadians [:)] ) than there are differences. That is probably why several of us took the "lie" post as negatively as we did. I was just offering the most positive spin on it I could. In Japan, it is not morally reprehensible to lie in business dealings just so long as you don't get caught.
The quirks in pricing on the Logos website cut both ways. I have seen product with two separate description pages and prices. I have seen sale ads (Calvin 500) that still have an active discount code 9 months after it was supposed to expire. I have had Logos cancel Pre-Pubs altogether just before ship date (Oxford Latin Dictionary.) I do not believe for a minute that Logos wants to greedily bleed me of every penny I have. Logos adjusted prices on some Brill titles downwards after a customer questioned the correctness.
The relationship Logos has with it's customers is symbiotic. Logos needs repeat buyers. Buyers need Logos to stay in business . As long as there are humans working at Logos, there is potential for oversights, slip-ups and misunderstandings.
To imply dishonesty or greed on Logos' part seems strange on the heels of the FREE Perseus releases. Is it just a case of cross-cultural communication breakdown? I am certainly willing to embrace that possibility.
addendum: One obvious fact we can not ignore is the difference in government regulations & business practices between Europe and the USA. If the world will wait 20 years, I am sure American politicians will do their best to control our lives in the smallest minutia. We did force MacDonalds not to serve hot coffee. [C]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I, as the OP, do not consider Logos as having 'lied' to me, in the sense of intentionally deceiving me. As i was able to check the prices easily, it seems OTT to accuse them of anything sinister. As MJ put it - they'e been sloppy and it's an indication that their back end computer systems are not as good as could be. If I were designing such a system (which I do for a living) I would make sure that 'collections of resources' were properly linked to the individual resources involved and thus ensure that either the discount offered automatically reflected price changes to those items, or at the very least, warned of any inconsistencies.
In defence of Logos, I have always found them ready to correct mistakes and, indeed, they are quick to refund any resource that doesn't live up to my expectations (which happened recently with one I bought.)
Anyway, my intention in posting was not to cast aspersions against Logos' motives, but to just point out that a mistake had obviously been made and give them a chance to correct it, which I'm sure they will in due course.
Andy
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Andy Bell said:
but to just point out that a mistake had obviously been made and give them a chance to correct it, which I'm sure they will in due course.
And I brought the problem to the attention of Logos - which may or may not be why Logos posted that it was an error they will correct. So I think the problem is resolved and the thread has served it's purpose.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Also, during really bad days I do end up being a lot grumpier than I should be
Now, I find that had to believe. I did not know you even had the capacity to become grumpy!
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MJ. Smith said:Jerry Bush said:
Ignoring fgh is the best response, friends. He or she continues to post things like this. Just don't respond.
Jerry
fgh (a she) is a respected member of the forum community who is probably shaking her head at the response to her post. English is a second (or third or fourth) language for her. At the very least, Logos again was sloppy - not paying attention to detail. While native speakers would likely use "falsehood" rather than "lie", it's not a crime to misuse language. I just had to correct one of my posts which said "copywrite" rather than "copyright" ... and I'm an educated, ancient, native-speaker.
Yes, fgh is coming across as defensive but with reason - so yes, let the subject drop but with the recognition that there is some truth behind what she is trying to say even if she is not saying it as you would.
And MJ, you are a respected member here as well, and therefore I am listening to you.
Sloppiness is a far cry from a lie or trying to trick customers, which I don't believe Logos would ever do.
I did not know fgh was not a native English speaker. I have seen her call Logos "liars" and similar things in other threads, which I assume means the same thing in most languages, so I have not shared your respect for her thus far.
Because of your word here, I will reset my opinion and not think of past posts.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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