Logos4 is garbage

Page 2 of 6 (101 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last »
This post has 100 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 9:35 AM

Denise Barnhart:
And all the folks I know think the software is either unnecessarily slow or complicated.

I'd be happy to meet you sometime, just so you could meet someone who doesn't think the software is unnecessarily slow or complicated. If you're ever in the general are of Bellingham/Mount Vernon, WA, drop me a line. I'll buy you coffee and a pastry at any local coffee place.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 3750
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 9:37 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

Denise Barnhart:
And all the folks I know think the software is either unnecessarily slow or complicated.

I'd be happy to meet you sometime, just so you could meet someone who doesn't think the software is unnecessarily slow or complicated. If you're ever in the general are of Bellingham/Mount Vernon, WA, drop me a line. I'll buy you coffee and a pastry at any local coffee place.

Yes

Same here, north Idaho...

(so you've heard the same from someone without a star Wink)

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 9:45 AM

No Rick, I didn't 'fire' Logos4. But I did assign him to helping out Libronix every now and then (hopefully over time, he'll become a better worker and not require firing).

And yes, I do thoroughly enjoy Libronix. Some (most?) like Logos4. Yesterday at Matthew's invitation, I was reading Bob's blog. I thought it interesting that Bob didn't expect people to like Logos4 as much as they did (causing him to scramble for support).

And Richard and Bill ... no offense, but it's your friends at church and relatives who share your beliefs that you'd most like to also share Logos with.

Again, no offense.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 2853
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 9:50 AM

Denise analysis about responses from MVP's should give us with star much to think about. Especially when the poster is new to the forum. Point taken by me Denise!

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:03 AM

Denise Barnhart:

And Richard and Bill ... no offense, but it's your friends at church and relatives who share your beliefs that you'd most like to also share Logos with.

Again, no offense.

I'm neither offended, nor surprised by your response. Wink

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:17 AM

tom collinge:
Wow, can you feel the love coming from MVP's?  

This thread reminds me of  Rehoboham in 1 Kings 12:1-24 . The Elders cared enough about the new king to give him good advice even though they knew he would not like it. Rehoboham's "friends" told him what he wanted to hear and when he heeded them, it had disastrous consequences. Granted, some people are just not computer savvy and might ought to stick to hardback books. But I think the OP just needs to hear straight answers rather than a dog-pile of unhelpful "agreement."  Call it "tough love" or whatever.

What amazes me more than unhappy users who make generalized criticism without requesting help is long time posters who hate the software yet keep hanging around to offer nothing but criticism. Hmm

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 28
Fred H. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:17 AM

I'd just like to say that I'm in the "think it's slow" and "complicated" camp.  HOWEVER, I have a love/hate relationship with it.  I HATE the hours of research it takes to learn and the cost I'm about to spend on some DVD's (almost as much as the program) and the slowness of the program response at times.  I LOVE what Logos does and as I learn more I love it more.  I also love the fact I finally discoverd that if you have a question just post it here and shazamm there are many that enjoy helping and quickly.

So...love OR hate it, one has to say....there is nothing like it.

In His Peace, Fred

 “We love because he first loved us.” (1 John 4:19, ESV)

CBCWallace.org

Posts 3750
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:41 AM

Denise Barnhart:

no offense

None taken. Smile

Denise Barnhart:

And ... it's your friends at church and relatives who share your beliefs that you'd most like to also share Logos with.

I already do... Alll Bible classes I teach are via Logos on projector / screen & my notes as curriculum.

It really was this one user I chose to comment on, since I can reach everyone locally without internet.

I enjoy your posts Denise & saw the humor...

Thanks for your posts.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 3750
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:45 AM

Fred H.:
...love OR hate it, one has to say....there is nothing like it.

Well spoken, Fred--your entire post, not just the snippet I copied... I'm probably in the same camp as you, but I choose to remember that one thing consistently slower than Logos is me, doing the same work without Logos. And I choose to remember that love is a choice. It does me no good to get upset with the software. It does me a lot of good to focus instead on HOW to get something done, even though what I've tried so far didn't work.

Many blessings to you!

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:46 AM

Denise Barnhart:
No Rick, I didn't 'fire' Logos4. But I did assign him to helping out Libronix every now and then (hopefully over time, he'll become a better worker and not require firing).

Have you ever paused to consider the fact Bob Pritchett has created the top two Bible study programs? You have to go to Libronix 3 to criticize Logos 4. Other companies may do one thing well but Logos 4 is a very ambitious attempt at doing many things well. The "competition" did not even enter into the majority of the events in the Bible Software Olympics. No wonder Logos is sweeping all the gold medals.

(Vyrso, Biblia.com, Perseus collections - for FREE, iOS apps, Android, faster searches than Libronix, Academic discounts, massive resource library 16,000?, cloud-syncing, Personal Book tool.........) Moses had his critics. Leaders always do.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 3750
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:47 AM

Super Tramp:

What amazes me more than unhappy users who make generalized criticism without requesting help is long time posters who hate the software yet keep hanging around to offer nothing but criticism. Hmm

Nevertheless, we can learn more from one who disagrees with us than we can from 10 who agree.

Many blessings to you, & I appreciate all you do.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 10:59 AM

BillS:
Nevertheless, we can learn more from one who disagrees with us than we can from 10 who agree.

Correct.    And I do learn a lot from Tom, Denise, and others. It keeps my "Hooray" factor in check.   (Thanks, Denise, Tom.)

 I just thought the OP needed to hear how to get more out of his investment. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1829
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 12:20 PM

Denise, thank you for answering my question.  Smile

Posts 33760
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 1:40 PM

Denise Barnhart:
Logosian One-Star#3: Checks out the complaintant's prior record. Seems to suggest Logos4 is about as intuitive as a video game. Recommends exactly what the user was most frustrated with: lots of research and poking around.

From Logosian One-Star#3 herself.

Your statement  loses two points (a) that I find video games anything but intuitive and (b) acknowledges that said original is frustrated by the poking around mode and the read the forum mode, so he should try the one mode he didn't mention - watching the videos or using the wiki.

My experience in a team with three leads who had worked together for about 5 years: We were confronted with a new tool that took some significant time to learn:

  • B. starting working through all the tutorials and found a book to review the materials from the tutorials.
  • M (myself) worked through less than 5 minutes of a tutorial, decided it was stupid and simply started using the tool - trial, error and the help function.
  • G simply waited until B and M were proficient and asked us to walk him through a case or two

Similar distinctions happened frequently with the same pattern of behavior. I see the Original Poster as being most like M but without a good help function in the product (partially because the product has a much broader set of uses).

Denise Barnhart:
But one does see a little humor in the process.

Stick out tongue

Super Tramp:
but Logos 4 is a very ambitious attempt at doing many things well.

I think that one thing many of us forget is that using Logos is in many ways difficult. And, unfortunately, that difficulty will remain and must remain. Most software for working with textual material supports a particular theory of analyzing the text. Logos supports many theories. Even if when the software for analyzing textual materials supports multiple theories of analysis, you normally choose the rules you wish to use and they apply to a particular project. Look at Visual Text as an example of what I mean.

The result is that in one sense it is easy to use Logos to get something useful; in another sense it can be difficult to get Logos to follow a particular pattern/interpretation theory. That is one reason I used to push hard to get study templates. Don't worry - I'll get back up on that soap box once Notes are functional,

Now, Denise, you have a little two-part assignment:

  • expand your post to reflect the subsequent discussion The summary takes far less time to read Smile
  • I'm just a caffeine-shot drive south of Richard, so stop here at my favorite coffee shop first and refill your cup at Richard's favorite coffee shop.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2868
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 7:33 AM

I too have been quite frustrated with the performance of Logos compared to 3. But to all it garbage is unfair. To say you are frustrated is fair. But to expect to get peace performance out of a program as complicated as Logos with little time invested is unfair. You're not using e-Sword or QuickVerse here. This is a powerful and complex program. I think the comparison to Photoshop is apt.

Wow I feel weird being the Logos defender here. I'm usually the guy saying what's wrong!

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 7:59 AM

And another first....I agree with Kevin! Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 8:32 AM

Robert Pavich:

And another first....I agree with Kevin! Big Smile

Agreed. I suppose it was the use of the term "garbage" in the subject with no justifiable explanation that rubbed me the wrong way. But I suppose if I invested so much money into a product and it did not live up to my expectation after a year of use I'd be frustrated as well.

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 8:33 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Wow I feel weird being the Logos defender here. I'm usually the guy saying what's wrong!
 LOL

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 2205
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 9:11 AM

How to help Glen and others like him:

1.  For forum users and MPs: Don't get tired of these types of comments on the forum.  They are to be expected from such a complicated program.  Most of us, if not, all of us, have been frustrated with L4.  We have been through it. Newbies have not.

2. For LOGOS:  It can take months to understand L4.  People have limited time. This can lead to frustration. Logos could help by producing a basic pdf manual that comes with the program, a sort of self help manual. Much of it is probably already written in the wiki and in the videos and just needs to be tweaked or put into a pdf form so newbies can easily find it or learn of it.  

3. A forum post could be written (by any interested) that would be the start of such a manual for new users.  A sort of step by step instruction of what to expect for someone who has just come in contact with the program and has no idea what to expect.  

4. For Glen: Most, if not all of us have experienced frustration.  It is a great program, but not for everyone.  It unfortunately does not ship with a manual.  As  a result, the forum and the wiki page and videos provided by others on this post will help you.  Posting specific questions will get you answers on the forum.

 

Finally,

What is a treasure for one can be garbage for someone else.  In my opinion, Logos is not garbage, but it comes with a very steep learning curve, and is only useful to someone who can deal with frustration.  I no longer get frustrated by L4. But I have been very frustrated by it and quite frankly, caution people who many be interested in the product due to the combination of the expense, frustration, lack of a free manual and the unknown of what the program will be like when a switch is made from L4 to L5.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 9:39 AM

Mark:
Logos could help by producing a basic pdf manual that comes with the program, a sort of self help manual.

One reason software companies rarely ship manuals anymore is that such manuals are out of date almost before they reach the customer. Logos is constantly adding to and tweaking the program. The wiki is the best place to go for help because the wiki can be updated alongside the program. These days, those who purchase something like Logos (which requires navigating the web) can just as easily read the Wiki page as an outdated printed manual. Logos has links to help resources all over the website. More links within the app itself, perhaps pointing directly to specific wiki articles, might be helpful.

As to the general issue in this thread, any application with any significant capability is going to have a fair degree of complexity. I have used several Bible study programs. The ones that can't do much are pretty easy to figure out. The more they can do, the more complex they are. Someone earlier made the comparison to Adobe Photoshop. A basic paint program is easy to use, but if you really want power, it takes the complexity of Photoshop. An amateur can pick up Photoshop (or Logos) and get to work doing basic things, but learning the real power of the program requires a time commitment, no matter what it is.

These tools are just that - tools to help you do more. Like any tool, you have to take the time to learn it. The more powerful the tool, the more you have to learn. 

Page 2 of 6 (101 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last » | RSS