Logos4 is garbage

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Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 6:30 PM

Super Tramp:

Chris Roberts:
These tools are just that - tools to help you do more. Like any tool, you have to take the time to learn it. The more powerful the tool, the more you have to learn. 

Just go compare the features of a $200 dishwasher to a $1000 dishwasher. The former just has an "ON" button while the latter will set the table for you. Surprise

I am not sure these comments really are helpful, even if said in jest.  The comments are still trying to make a point which does not help Glenn.  If I buy a $1000 dishwasher, there will be more features.  Imagine my shock to receive the item with no manual.  Or to be told after the dishwasher is delivered that there is a detailed manual, but you will have to pay $200 to get it.  Otherwise, check out the user forum.  If I buy a $200 dishwasher, the amazing thing is it still comes with a manual.  It is true that if I buy a $200 dishwasher, I might expect issues such as a poorly written manual...or none at all.  But if I am going to buy a more expensive machine with more bells and whistles that require more time to learn, well it is a no brainer that I would expect a user manual to come with the machine.

You need time to learn a tool.  Agree.  Glenn apparently gave it 8 months and is still not able to figure it out.  I know that might say a lot about Glenn.  But it also might say a lot about L4.  It took me many months to figure it out.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 8:21 PM

Mark:
Glenn apparently gave it 8 months and is still not able to figure it out.  I know that might say a lot about Glenn.  But it also might say a lot about L4.  It took me many months to figure it out.

One thing it says is that whatever resources Glenn is using to figure it out are not effective for him. While I don't know what he has used, there are several alternatives for him to try - which will be the most effective for Glenn, I do not know:

  • trial and error or try try again
  • Logos produced videos
  • User produced videos
  • MP videos of Logos Camps 1 & 2
  • user produced wiki
  • MP produced manuals
  • MP in person training (Logos Camps)
  • questions in forums

You'll notice that 3 of those options are free and produced people volunteering their time to give Glenn multiple means of learning to use Logos; 3 cost money and are not produced by Logos; 2 are free and from Logos. People who, like Glenn, get so frustrated as to scream "garbage" need to realize that they are screaming "garbage" in a room full (forum full) of customers who appreciate Logos sufficiently to produce videos, write wiki pages and spend time answering questions for anyone having problems. They should anticipate responses accordingly. If Glenn will articulate what he wants to achieve that he is unable to do with Logos, let him post until he "gets it". That is the purpose of the forums.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 21 2011 11:46 PM

 

Mark:
I am not sure these comments really are helpful, even if said in jest. 

My comments are not said in jest or criticism. They are factual observations. If telling Glen the truth about the differences between a high-octane program like Logos 4 and a simple $6 Bible text CD is discouraging to him, I apologize. But when Logos 4 came out, EVERYBODY had a learning curve. I still have Libronix 3 installed alongside Logos 4. It took me many months before Logos 4 became my primary program.

  1. I went to Camp Logos 4 and I learned a lot. (Morris Proctor Seminars)
  2. I bought Camp Logos Live on DVD.
  3. My Pre-Pub order is in for Camp Logos Live 2
  4. I bought Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software on DVD 
  5. I bought Introducing New Testament Discourse Grammar: Video Series  on DVD.
  6. I've watched all the Learn to Do Word Studies with Logos Bible Software videos and highly recommend them for new Logos users.
  7. I bought John Fallahee's interactive Logos training lessons (LearnLogos.com)
  8. I've watched many of the Logos videos hosted on Youtube.
  9. I've watched some of the excellent FREE videos done by Mark Barnes.
  10. I read LogosTalk blog posts by Morris Proctor.
  11. I subscribe to Morris Proctor Seminars newsletter.
  12. I have spent more hours reading forum posts than I can count and learned so much from Dave Hooton, Mark Barnes, Todd ...

                             ..............................Uh-Oh,  I'll leave out someone for sure. You get the idea though.

Mark:
You need time to learn a tool.  Agree.  Glenn apparently gave it 8 months and is still not able to figure it out.  I know that might say a lot about Glenn.  But it also might say a lot about L4.  It took me many months to figure it out.

Time & effort are required. I have had Logos 4 since November 2, 2009. I'm still learning new features and tools. My base package was just a serious starting point. The usefulness of the software is compounded exponentially, the more resources I add to it. Maybe I should feel guilt for enjoying my Logos so much.  Lastly, Glen must have a lot more patience than I.  I pray he gets satisfaction soon.

added: I do think a downloadable manual is a good idea, one that is kept up to date through the sync feature.

 

 

 

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 4:49 AM

Super Tramp:

What amazes me more than unhappy users who make generalized criticism without requesting help is long time posters who hate the software yet keep hanging around to offer nothing but criticism. Hmm

Yes

Amen!

Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 6:44 AM

Bob Schlessman:

Super Tramp:

What amazes me more than unhappy users who make generalized criticism without requesting help is long time posters who hate the software yet keep hanging around to offer nothing but criticism. Hmm

 

Yes

Amen!

I would suggest that in a forum this size, unhappy users who make general criticism without requesting help should not amaze anyone, especially not MPs.  We have all been there.

I would also suggest that your second statement should not amaze anyone either. I don't spend as much time on the forum as you do but I have no doubt such posters exist.  It is possible (I am only guessing) that 'hate' would be too strong of a word.  It is rather possible to suggest that some have invested a lot in a program which has in an upgrade, highly disappointed them.  Due to the investment, they may stay around and complain and still use the program due to their investment.

One also needs to distinguish between destructive criticism and constructive criticism.  Just as one needs to distinguish between destructive postings and constructive postings.

For newbies, they do not necessarily realize that L4 is going to come with a steep learning curve and no manual.  They may not know of the resources available.  They may not even know of the forum.  I have met several Logos users who did not know about the forum.  Where Logos can help is to make these things clearer as well as the resources you have outlined so nicely in a former post.

Posts 8666
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 7:05 AM

I have met several Logos users who did not know about the forum.  Where Logos can help is to make these things clearer as well as the resources you have outlined so nicely in a former post.

Mark:
I have met several Logos users who did not know about the forum.  Where Logos can help is to make these things clearer as well as the resources you have outlined so nicely in a former post.
 I also have met several that have never heard of the forums.  This puzzles me because I'm of the sort that goes looking for information when I need something and being "techie" I look for forums.  

It further puzzles me because "View online forums" along with "View online video tutorials" and "View user-edited Wiki" are right there on the help menu - which is the first place I go when I need something in a new program.    

I'll readily acquiesce and agree that not everyone knows what a wiki is, but "tutorial videos" is pretty clear.    

That said, do you have any suggestions for HOW these things can be made clearer?   As I think about it I can't imagine much myself.

Thinking outloud...

  • Perhaps a LARGE link on the logos.com home page "Logos Training"
  • ?

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 7:07 AM

Mark:

One also needs to distinguish between destructive criticism and constructive criticism.  Just as one needs to distinguish between destructive postings and constructive postings.

For newbies, they do not necessarily realize that L4 is going to come with a steep learning curve and no manual.  They may not know of the resources available.  They may not even know of the forum.  I have met several Logos users who did not know about the forum.  Where Logos can help is to make these things clearer as well as the resources you have outlined so nicely in a former post.

Mark thank you for your thoughtful & constructive postings on this thread. Have you any suggestion on how to improve things?

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 550
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 7:16 AM

Yes

Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 7:30 AM

Thomas Black:
This puzzles me because I'm of the sort

I think this is where the issue is.  Others are not of the sort that goes looking for these things.  You are correct that some (perhaps many) don't know what a wiki is.  I think the answer lies in using a variety of methods to arrest the attention of all different types and sorts of people.

Here are some of my suggestions (some might already be implemented, I don't know):

1. When someone buys L4, it comes with a download link, email etc.  In the downloaded link and especially in the email, there should be in LARGE letters, a link where one can go to get help

2. Logos can supply in the L4 program itself a clear button, link or something that will take a user to the online videos or wiki page etc.  I believe if I remember correctly, someone created a pbb of the wiki page.  It would be very helpful if Logos provided this for those who have no idea what a pbb is.

3.  A basic user manual that is free that contains links, videos etc is absolutely necessary.  I know some have suggested that software today does not come with manuals.  I simply dont find this to be true.  Logos is the only software I have that did not come with a manual.  Because Morris Procter is licensed to create the manual, this causes a bit of an issue.  But if we simply speak about a very basic and general manual...it can curb a lot of postings on the forum. 

4. Before someone is able to purchase L4, Logos should make it clear that there is no manual and that the places to go for help are spelled out clearly... A new customer should also be made aware that the program will require time to learn and enjoy the potential.

5.  When a newbie calls customer service, they should receive help in getting started (however Bob wants to do that) and if the newbie finds the forum and posts something nice, mean, etc, a ready made response is in place to kindly direct them to resources.  If we on the forum are not kind with our words and posts, it will drive users away for the forum and will also drive customers away form L4.  Glenn was frustrated.  We all have been there. The launch of  L4 for those of us who were around for it was not exactly a text book launch.  I imagine Bob has learned a lot from that launch and mistakes made will not be made when L5 one day launches.  So having a ready made response to such posters can be a help as well. 

 

This posting can be used to offer constructive criticism so that in the future when another Glenn makes a posting, we all can better help.  We don't need to be offended or offend when reading or writing posts.  We will inadvertently be offended and offend I am sure.  But we should do our utmost to avoid these reactions and attitudes.  Some good ideas have come from Glenn's posting so far.  Hopefully these ideas will not be lost in a sea of unnecessary posts.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 8:27 AM

Thanks again Mark I see you have answered my question in responding to Thomas. Much appreciated. Regards

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 8:41 AM

There is another suggestion.  The first basic manual put out by Morris Proctor can be integrated in the purchase price of any Logos package.  If this is done, the price for the manual should end up being cheaper as Morris Proctor would get more sales and thus would affect his income positively.  Everyone with a base package would receive the first manual as part of their purchase of the package.  All other manuals and tutorials offered by Morris Proctor would be an extra that the customer would choose to pay for if it was wanted.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 9:06 AM

This discussion has gotten away from the original topic, on a related issue for sure, and an issue that some have some strong feelings about.

Wouldn't it be better to encourage folks to support this request for a manual on UserVoice and/or put this in the suggestions forum?

Just a suggestion...about this suggestion.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 356
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 9:21 AM

Mark:
The first basic manual put out by Morris Proctor can be integrated in the purchase price of any Logos package.  If this is done, the price for the manual should end up being cheaper as Morris Proctor would get more sales and thus would affect his income positively. 

Yes I don't read too many posts on the forum, but titles like this one you just have to read...I'm in total agreement about the Proctor product being added in the base package, because often I'll miss something when I don't read the forum, and I don't have enough time to read the blog everyday.

I still use L3 on occasion, and since I updated my hardware before last Christmas my learning experience has increased... L4 is much faster then L3 once the indexing is done, and re-done, and re-done. L4 is such a powerful tool that many don't understand what's necessary to make it work correctly, even though L3 wasn't any less difficult, because of you didn't set certain items up correctly you where missing a lot of the functionality, and in that way L4 is easier and less confusing.

We live in a world where we want everything Now, but somethings take time! Still learning daily, and often forget things I don't use often, because there are so many tools available. This is the best bit of garage I have ever bought, and without the Newsgroups with L3, I would have been lost too... I think L4 is much easier then L3.

 

Posts 3578
steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 9:41 AM

Thomas Black:
"View user-edited Wiki"

This is not in 4.3Sr-3 drop down help menu, nor is there a wiki link inside the help file.

QLinks, Bibl2, LLR, Macros
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Posts 218
John Nerdue | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 9:42 AM

My problem with Logos 4 is and always has been the slowness of It (I also don’t like the way it looks or the way it works in general but could get use to this). It runs like syrup on cold day. I have it running on three different computers (old and new) and they all work the same SLOWWWW. I did all the tweaks to speed up the software as well as my computer (turning off things ect) and still runs slow. I use Libronix 3 only and update L4 on occasion. Maybe one day I will get a NASA type super computer that will run L4 faster but for now I don't like or use L4.

These are only my observations and experience. I post inorder to add my voice to the others that are not happy with L4. If you like it and use it great but many people don't like it or use it.

 (KEEP L3 ALIVE!!) Big Smile

 

Posts 8666
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 9:47 AM

steve clark:

Thomas Black:
"View user-edited Wiki"

This is not in 4.3Sr-3 drop down help menu, nor is there a wiki link inside the help file.

Ah.  Well it is in 4.5b3  so that indicates to me at least that Logos is attempting to expand the knowledge offerings a bit.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 9:54 AM

I always imagine Tom's small middle-America town as in Back to the Future, with the water tower, etc.

Tom always seems to be in the future (that's a compliment!).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 8666
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 10:13 AM

Denise Barnhart:
I always imagine Tom's small middle-America town as in Back to the Future, with the water tower, etc.
So close.  So close indeed.  But I live well outside of town though on a clear day I can still see the water tower.

Denise Barnhart:
Tom always seems to be in the future (that's a compliment!).
Smile

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 10:57 AM

Thomas Black:
So close.  So close indeed.  But I live well outside of town though on a clear day I can still see the water tower.

Well, I'm an old Hoosier boy from a small town (< 60,000) in N Indiana and that is still in my heart.  When I was growing up it wasn't the water tower that was the focal point there but the gas tower which could be seen from almost anywhere is town.  Unfortunately they took that down a few years ago so the skyline will look different whenever I find time to return.  To show how much it's in my heart — I freqently had felt a bit of disdain for what I conceived to be the provincialism of my state, but on a trip from California to Massachusetts I passed through and stopped to visit my mother; when I crossed the state line from Illinois to Indiana I found I was singing "Back Home Again in Indiana" with the tears running down my cheeks so you can take the boy out of Indiana, but you can't take Indiana out of the boy.  Would that the entire country were more like the state of my youth (not that I'm old — remember that I'll be 39 on my next birthday).  Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 11:01 AM

Mark:
Others are not of the sort that goes looking for these things. 

Then why in the world would they buy software with search features?  The whole concept of Bible study is to go find out something you do not already know.  "Ye have not because ye ask not." 

Not only did Daniel have to interpret King Nebuchadnezzar's dream, he had to tell the king what the dream was. We need to recruit that guy as an MVP. None of the current 26 MVPs can read minds.

"Verbal ability is a highly overrated thing in a guy, and it's our pathetic need for it that gets us into so much trouble." -Becky, from "Sleepless in Seattle"

There is no way we can help a user if they do not ask for help. We need to know what they need help with. Glen knew well enough how to post a new thread on the forum calling Logos "garbage" without ever asking for help. That tells me he is not as technologically ignorant as you may think. The last time we had a snowstorm in OKC I encountered a wealthy woman who had driven her new Mercedes into a snow drift and was spinning her tires in a hopeless attempt to drive out of it. I could have extricated the car but she would not accept help. I felt no guilt when I passed the car much later, still in the snowdrift.

Mark:
This posting can be used to offer constructive criticism so that in the future when another Glenn makes a posting, we all can better help.

None of your suggestions can be implemented by myself, or you. You would get a lot further, presuming you want to actually effect a difference, by appealing to someone who possesses the authority to enact changes. That would be someone at Logos (I would start with Bob Pritchett.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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