How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 3:19 AM

MJD:
This question was asked specifically to Bob.

Sorry MJD but this is a Forum. Its purpose is to have open public communication. Anyone can read anything you write, and anyone can comment on anything you write. If you would like private discourse with Bob send him an email.

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 3:32 AM

Halo Hound:

MJD:
This question was asked specifically to Bob.

Sorry MJD but this is a Forum. Its purpose is to have open public communication. Anyone can read anything you write, and anyone can comment on anything you write. If you would like private discourse with Bob send him an email.

Sorry for bringing this up before reading the rest of the thread. The issue has been discussed and doesn't need my input. I apologize, MJD.

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 4:31 AM

As a long time Logos user as well, and not a very happy one since the L4 fiasco, will these be fixed in L4 or on the list of promises for L5 which has got to be on the drawing board since it's been over 2 years since L4 was announced and released.

On the subject of Windows parity, I would rather have an app that runs like a Mac app should, fast and reliable, the only windows parity I desire is that it have at least the same capabilities and features but I don't want a windows app on my Mac.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 4:32 AM

Phil Mills:
Please read the original post.

You mean this one that did not mention native programming. I did not take issue with Joe Miller's post at all. As a recent switcher to Logos 4 Mac I lamented my discovery of the differences between L4W & L4M. Luckily I have my Windows platform to fall back on.

Or do you mean your first post in this thread? I only said Logos 4 Mac users were clamoring for parity with the Logos 4 Windows program. If that does not imply a better functioning Logos on the Windows side then I dare say the Mac side is not too clever to demand their program get closer to an inferior functioning version.

Phil Mills:
2. The underpinning of Logos is an orphan program that tries to enable Windows-type programming run on the Mac and makes the Mac program sluggish and has much more limited programming tools.

I believe you are referring to an emulator? I recently posted in another thread, "emulators are always slower than running native code." I have run emulators for decades (WINE, game consoles, SoftWindows, MacInDos, and others.)

Phil Mills:
If you do not program native programs on both platforms I do not care about your uniformed opinion.
I used to program for Windows 3.1 thru 2000, Mac Classic OS 6 thru 9, Linux, assembly, Basic, X-base, and REXX.  I even studied Ada. I was in MSDN, ADC & OS.2 DC. I programmed various controls and triple-axis robots in General Motors. Unfortunately I lost the zeal for programming and retired in 1998. I never bothered with Mac OS X or anything from .NET onwards. I have never reverse engineered Logos or even looked under the hood so I won't bother sharing my uninformed opinion where it is not wanted.

 

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 7:20 AM

Phil Mills:

But I wonder if it is harder because:

1. Mac users demand that programs be done right (the Mac way)

Phil, your post is a bright light of joy in this forum! It makes me smile to to see such love and passion for a platform; it's been a while since the Mac/PC wars here have thrown up such a classic, elegant praise-the-Mac-while-backhandedly-insulting-Windows-users statement. (I'm not mocking, I'm admiring the subtle elegance.)

"Bob, maybe you're right, maybe Mac coding is harder, because it has to be done right, not like the code you write for the simpletons who use Windows, and don't know enough to want things done right."

:-)

For what it's worth, I coded for Mac's before I coded for Windows. But I'm a bit out of date, so I confess I'm reporting what I hear from programmers who may have been polluted by having coded on Windows.

But, let me try a different spin that may make reinforce your pride in the Mac while still explaining my statement:

Microsoft loves developers. Apple loves consumers.

(Or, more accurately, Apple loves elegance, and consumers appreciate elegance more than they appreciate anonymous developers getting love, but that makes for a less elegant phrase.)

Does that help? It explains why consumers rightly love Apple products, but also explains why developers -- who are most certainly not consumer-like in their technical needs and interests -- often find Apple hasn't designed things perfectly for them. It also explains Microsoft's otherwise-inexplicable ability to get broad support for their less elegant platform: they've bought off the geeks who actually make hardware and software products by catering to their geeky (and arguably not-consumer-oriented) needs and desires, for which nefarious payoff we (consumers) all suffer.

All in fun,

-- Bob

PS David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?

PPS Yes, we could have delayed Proclaim indefinitely, and put those resources on the Mac version of Logos 4. That was my call, and I made it while balancing lots of things, including strategy, market expansion, and revenue planning. It may not have even been the right call, but that's how I called it then.

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Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 7:31 AM

Bob Pritchett:
PPS Yes, we could have delayed Proclaim indefinitely, and put those resources on the Mac version of Logos 4. That was my call, and I made it while balancing lots of things, including strategy, market expansion, and revenue planning. It may not have even been the right call, but that's how I called it then.

I'm guessing as a CEO you have a challenge in finding ways to develop new revenue streams while still supporting people like me who have already giving you most of the money we will ever give you. I have a huge Logos library and won't be adding to it very much any time soon (a few books here and there).

Proclaim is one way to do that since it is a subscription model.

Just saying to help explain why this would be done possibly taking away resources (devs) from the bread and butter product (L4Mac).

As a L4Mac users I'm disappointed by this decision. As someone who thinks Proclaim is a very nice solution potentially, I'm pleased with it!

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 9:03 AM

Bob Pritchett:
David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?

Apple provides a developer tool called Interface Builder. We use it to quickly lay out the major components of our UI, which are then saved in files called "nibs" that can be loaded at runtime.

Up through version 3, Interface Builder supported plugins. Our layout needs are much more complex than what was offered by Interface Builder, so we built a plugin that supported the necessary features, and then we built over 600 nibs that depended upon this plugin.

One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.

When we attended WWDC, Martin and I tracked down an Interface Builder developer to ask what the story was. He confirmed our worst fears: plugins were never coming back in a form that will be useful to us.

So now, instead of working on bug fixes, performance, or new features, one of our prized Mac developers has spent countless hours developing a tool that will allow us to migrate away from nibs so that we can all upgrade to XCode 4 (and Lion, which has known compatibility issues with XCode 3).

This is just one of the things that we mean when we say "developing for Mac is harder." Other companies wouldn't dream of removing support for a critical feature without years of deprecation warnings, but Apple did so in a single day.

That being said, was it the right call for Apple? Maybe.

Will dropping support for the feature allow them to build other new, innovative features? Probably.

Is that any comfort to us right now? Not at all.

 

* Arguably, the fact that Interface Builder never allowed plugins for iPhone was a clue that Apple no longer considered them important, but at the time, I had little experience in reading the entrails of release notes as a means of predicting the future. I'm much more sensitive to such things now, which is why I run a secret, 64-bit build of Logos 4 for Mac on my machine.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 453
Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 9:09 AM

Here's irony for you: I actually am pleased with the decision to support OS X out of the gate with Proclaim. It shows a commitment to multiple platforms that will bleed over into all products. It suggests the possibility that the gap could be temporary. If they had not supported OS X, it would have sent a message that OS X is "too hard" to build new products on and the ROI isn't there. That would bode poorly for the platform for Logos in future versions. 

The "Mac tools aren't as mature" and "it's harder to program for" are totally expected AFAIK from a company with years of tools and development experience on windows. C# is a fantastic CLR language with libraries that really enable developers to be highly productive. No question about it. Visual Studio, the CLR and supporting libraries are what has made Windows so developer friendly. Objective-C is a precompiled C. Totally different approach. Cocoa is no WPF. Xcode is... not VS! 

All that said, my personal experience says that people are, by far the most productive with what they know. I've worked with developers who use vi who could code circles around people loaded with IDE-based tools. Knowing your platform takes years. The direction of multi platform with essentially identical UI means there's always a translation layer from the reference platform. Think of the windows platform as your hebrew OT... and the mac platform is essentially the LXX... a bible for the language of the consumer, but sometimes has issues with translation choices, different semantic ranges, etc.. So someone doesn't just have to be an expert in Greek/OS X, they need to be good at translation from Hebrew/Win as well. For people who love to develop on the mac platform it is going to be a very difficult sell (as I'm sure it has been with getting some win32 developers to do mac). 

For me, the frustration is the apparent lack of attention to the parity issues at the product management and release management levels. KS4J has essentially stepped in to act as the product manager to identify and manage L4M. He's done an amazing job, really... take a look at his work. He (at least I'm pretty sure he's a he?) has consistently caught all of these differences and documented them faithfully. He always makes sure to identify the L4M Uservoice entries that reflect what he sees from the forums. KS4J clearly has a passion and the attention to detail that's just not showing up from the business. Logos should send KS4J on a resort vacation or cruise!

What would "satisfy" me would be attention to KS4J's list. Knock of just one thing every release... and put it in the release notes! Then note what version it was addressed in on the feature parity list... show your work! Shut us up! Tell us what you just are not going to do. Tell us what you're actively working on (but not promising to deliver in a specific release). Tell us what's on the back burner! 

To return it back to Joe's rhetorical OP: "Why won't Logos allow developers to prioritize the fixing of critical regressions?" 

I don't think that Joe really cares about the why, but instead acknowledgment that these are critical regressions and they're being worked actively. Give us hope!

Oh, and by the way, do Passage List parity first Wink

 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 9:40 AM

Mike S.:
What would "satisfy" me would be attention to KS4J's list. Knock of just one thing every release... and put it in the release notes!

Wiki history has version comparison; Logos 4.3 provided reason to remove 6 items from Feature Parity list (compare wiki page versions 73 and 74), including Morph Search transliteration entry, Syntax Search creation, and scrolling issue in Reverse Interlinear.  Many Feature Parity list updates were mentioned in Beta release notes, often with links to forum threads about issue.

By the way, my wife often uses Logos 4 Mac.  Thankful we have separate Logos libraries with different preferences.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 9:49 AM

David Mitchell:

Bob Pritchett:
David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?

Apple provides a developer tool called Interface Builder.

aaahhh. I was expecting you to say no. That would have been fun!!! :-)

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 12:54 PM

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 12:58 PM

David Mitchell:
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.

David - Don't you think that part of this is because Apple expects (does what it can to encourage) its users to upgrade much sooner than MSFT? I mean, there is still a significant portion of windows users on Win XP!

David Mitchell:
which is why I run a secret, 64-bit build of Logos 4 for Mac on my machine.

Big Smile It's our secret!

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Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 1:58 PM

alabama24:

David Mitchell:
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.

David - Don't you think that part of this is because Apple expects (does what it can to encourage) its users to upgrade much sooner than MSFT? I mean, there is still a significant portion of windows users on Win XP!

With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools. Consider:

  • The iPhone 3GS (two generations behind) can run the latest versions of iOS.
  • PowerPC users got a major release of OS X after the switch to Intel.
  • Intel machines could run PowerPC apps for three major releases of OS X.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 2:52 PM

David Mitchell:
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools.

I guess that is part of my point. By forcing developers in a certain direction, it moves things forward faster than on the Windows platform. I am sure that it can be aggravating for developers, but it makes things better for Apple's kind of consumer (i.e. the one who upgrades more often).

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Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 3:15 PM

alabama24:

David Mitchell:
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools.

I guess that is part of my point. By forcing developers in a certain direction, it moves things forward faster than on the Windows platform. I am sure that it can be aggravating for developers, but it makes things better for Apple's kind of consumer (i.e. the one who upgrades more often).

Another thing is that OSX upgrades are considerably cheaper than their Windows equivalents. e.g. moving from Snow Leopard to Lion is only £21 whereas Windows Vista to Windows 7 is well over £100!

However, that doesn't help Logos developers working with a multi-platform product. It's that multi-platform product which gives Logos the parity headaches which other bible-software programs don't have.

Yes, there are several things I would like to see in the Mac version - e.g. handouts. But I have learned so much as the Mac version has been developed that the learning curve has been that much easier than I expected when I switched to Mac just 2 years ago.

Also I would love notes in IOS.

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1

iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1

Posts 328
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 5:43 PM

Thank you, Bob, for your comments. They are very helpful. You gave me an "ahha" (spelling?) moment with your statement: "Microsoft loves developers. Apple loves consumers." I get it. The Mac is a harder platform to program on.

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

Posts 62
Rich Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 3 2011 1:20 PM

KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 3 2011 1:52 PM

Rich Davis:
KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset. 

I couldn't agree with you more Rich! Smile

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Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 3 2011 3:05 PM

Rich Davis:

KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset. 

+1 YesYes

 

__________

15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 3 2011 3:08 PM

You don't tug on superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the ole Lone Ranger and, you don't send Smiling 4 Jesus off to work for Logos-smile.

But really: He does do an incredible job of welcoming everyone and helping anyone, he does it with integrity, compassion and honesty.

Thanks Smiling.

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