L4 Search: More results, faster, less utility and other bothers

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Posts 54
Rick Williams | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 7 2009 8:20 AM | Locked

To begin there are a number of things about L4 I do like but a real problem with it for me is how searches are done and returned. 

I do a significant number of topic based searches and a pre L4 example of that was a class I did on angels.  L3 would return topic searches in a format which is much more useful than the 12,279 results in 2,380 articles listed across 24 sceens or pages of output.  I'd liken it to doing a Google search where you end up scrolling through page after page of results looking for something on target. 

I thought perhaps searches would suport tagged searches such as topic: angels or subject: angels but no, that only added topic and search to the searched terms. 

This would be partly aliviated if under book if would just list the source and number of articles under it to compact the results.  Yes I could set up collections but then I loose the point of a very fast search engine and would miss those resources that might be relevant but which I didn't think to include in my search.  But even more useful would be a true topic based search rather than a shotgun all instances search, which to me is nearly useless.  As it is I'm doing my serious work back on L3 and just playing with L4 which makes me glad I didn't upgrade a level or two because the L4 just isn't ready for prime time.

A couple of other things that are problematic.  I have L4 installed on my office machine and a lap top.  The sync idea is very good particularly for collections and upgrades but automatically setting the displays across isn't.  I use the two computers differently and I'd like the abuility to keep software sync'd but leave my screens alone. 

I also do a fair bit of work in original languages.  I really do not like the way interlinears are displayed, preferably I should be able to use them as they were published and at the very least they should scroll with the text. 

I also think the menu has been overly simplified.  I appreciate the ability to directly call up certain features.  Yes that does require a bit of a learning curve for new users but for the huge installed base, if they are like me,  the current menu is a real problem.  It reminds me of MS Word upgrade where I spent 90% of my time looking for features I needed ubntil a decided just to can MS office and went with open office instead.  

As I said, some things on L4 are brillantly executed but I think a lot of it was never taken beyond the "gee whiz" look how cool this is stage into what the functions were being used for and whether it served a functional purpose. 

Hope these issues are addressed sooner rather than later because L4 has real potential.    

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 8:30 AM | Locked

Rick Williams:
I thought perhaps searches would suport tagged searches such as topic: angels or subject: angels but no, that only added topic and search to the searched terms. 

The idea behind topic searching has changed a bit. Since I didn't care for L3's topic search much I haven't investigated it much in L4 but I believe they do not tag resources by topic anymore. If they do you will need to lose the space between the colon and Angels.

Rick Williams:
This would be partly aliviated if under book if would just list the source and number of articles under it to compact the results. 

This has been voiced as something that could be improved. Keep voicing it, they need to do something to make the search results more concise.

Rick Williams:
I use the two computers differently and I'd like the abuility to keep software sync'd but leave my screens alone. 

Agreed. "Last layout used" should not be synced between computers. Each computer should revert to the last layout used on that computer.

Rick Williams:
I also do a fair bit of work in original languages.  I really do not like the way interlinears are displayed, preferably I should be able to use them as they were published and at the very least they should scroll with the text. 

this was a big issue in beta testing. Bob has gone on record to say that they are going to give both options, at least for the ESV, sometime in the future. I don't know where it stands as far as priority. One thing that you might find helpful though is sympathetic highlighting. See below. Hopefully it will make enough sense to be able to be adapted to your needs.

Rick Williams:
I also think the menu has been overly simplified.  I appreciate the ability to directly call up certain features.  Yes that does require a bit of a learning curve for new users but for the huge installed base, if they are like me,  the current menu is a real problem.  It reminds me of MS Word upgrade where I spent 90% of my time looking for features I needed ubntil a decided just to can MS office and went with open office instead.  

Sorry, I part with you here. I like the new menus.

 

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 8:46 AM | Locked

Rick Williams:
To begin there are a number of things about L4 I do like
Well that's a good place to start.

Rick Williams:
I thought perhaps searches would suport tagged searches such as topic: angels or subject: angels but no, that only added topic and search to the searched terms. 
I haven't worked much with searching, but have you tried operators?  This AND that

I like your thoughts on searching, and I assure you that Logos is listening, I believe that in the future we'll gain even more control over searches.

Rick Williams:
I also do a fair bit of work in original languages.  I really do not like the way interlinears are displayed, preferably I should be able to use them as they were published and at the very least they should scroll with the text. 
Good news!  The L3 style interlinears will return very shortly. We made a lot of noise during beta on this, so Bob assured us it would come back and be better than ever.

Rick Williams:
A couple of other things that are problematic.  I have L4 installed on my office machine and a lap top.  The sync idea is very good particularly for collections and upgrades but automatically setting the displays across isn't.  I use the two computers differently and I'd like the abuility to keep software sync'd but leave my screens alone. 
Good point, I've thought about this but haven't been able to test syncing layouts.

Rick Williams:
I also think the menu has been overly simplified.  I appreciate the ability to directly call up certain features.  Yes that does require a bit of a learning curve for new users but for the huge installed base, if they are like me,  the current menu is a real problem.  It reminds me of MS Word upgrade where I spent 90% of my time looking for features I needed ubntil a decided just to can MS office and went with open office instead.  
That sounds familiar.  Angel  It is a new paradigm.  I have found the command bar to be quite powerful and it guesses what I want pretty well.  Give that a shot and read about it in the help file some.  It may alleviate this.  L4 represents a new way of doing lots of things.  After 2 months, I believe that much of it is an improvement even though it is quite different.

 

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 12:34 PM | Locked

Rick Williams:
I thought perhaps searches would suport tagged searches such as topic: angels or subject: angels but no, that only added topic and search to the searched terms. 

The big problem with the old topic system is that they topics were very poorly assigned and managed across all the books. 

I've seen a lot of posts about bringing back the old Topic Browser, and we're appreciating how it was useful to many of you in ways the new system isn't. But we're cringing a bit, because we know how bad the topic tagging in the system was, and how the old topic searching -- while apparently useful -- was really failing to find lots of relevant information. So yes, it was a fast way to find and review topic hits -- but they weren't "great hits."

In 4.0 we're trying to move to a more sophisticated topic system; one that knows "communion" and "eucharist" are the same thing. But we're not done bringing old the old books into this framework, and we know it won't meet every need. So in the coming weeks we'll be engaging the forums in discussion on this and seeing how we can build a better system that meets everyone's needs.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 1:05 PM | Locked

Bob Pritchett:
In 4.0 we're trying to move to a more sophisticated topic system; one that knows "communion" and "eucharist" are the same thing.

 the new system. However, I would like the initial results to be at the book level - then I could click on the book to examine the actual occurences under it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 1:13 PM | Locked

Bob Pritchett:

Rick Williams:
I thought perhaps searches would suport tagged searches such as topic: angels or subject: angels but no, that only added topic and search to the searched terms. 

The big problem with the old topic system is that they topics were very poorly assigned and managed across all the books. 

I've seen a lot of posts about bringing back the old Topic Browser, and we're appreciating how it was useful to many of you in ways the new system isn't. But we're cringing a bit, because we know how bad the topic tagging in the system was, and how the old topic searching -- while apparently useful -- was really failing to find lots of relevant information. So yes, it was a fast way to find and review topic hits -- but they weren't "great hits."

In 4.0 we're trying to move to a more sophisticated topic system; one that knows "communion" and "eucharist" are the same thing. But we're not done bringing old the old books into this framework, and we know it won't meet every need. So in the coming weeks we'll be engaging the forums in discussion on this and seeing how we can build a better system that meets everyone's needs.

How difficult would it be to search just the headings? Is it a matter of "It just isn't indexed that way." or "some books' headings do not lend themselves to it." I don't think it would be a replacement for topical searching, but It would be a great additional way to search. I agree with getting away from the old system of topic searching. I like the direction your going, I just don't see the end yet.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 8:49 AM | Locked

Rick....

Before you bail out on this completely, try the following:

1.) Make a collection of your bible dictionaries and such...

2.) do a basic search using your term; marriage, sin, whatever...

then take a look at the results...they are sorted under headings in v4...NO...not completely...but in a very servicable way....there is a little bit of context at each entry...you can see what you are about to click on to make a good informed decision....

For the life of me I can't see what the fuss is all about....see the picture...

Topics at the top...more than you'd want...

Sub topics...

context....

What's not to love about this?

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 9:11 AM | Locked

Robert Pavich:
For the life of me I can't see what the fuss is all about...

Okay Bob P. Tell me can you do this in V4. I have limited my search to the Bibliotheca Sacra, i want to find the exegetical articles that deal with passages in Peter's epistle. Can this be done in V4? Ted

This what it looks like in V4

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 11:29 AM | Locked

Ted Hans:
Okay Bob P. Tell me can you do this in V4. I have limited my search to the Bibliotheca Sacra, i want to find the exegetical articles that deal with passages in Peter's epistle. Can this be done in V4? Ted

This is a great example of why I didn't care for L3 topic searches. It gave the appearance of finding everything but didn't. I found that not every heading was tagged correctly and many hits were missed from the topic searches when searching the journals. I created an excel file with every heading from theological journals 1-10 (about 70,000 headings). L3 consistently missed very good articles on the topic.  We may be in the wilderness for a little while as they attempt to find a better way but I think we will come out ahead in the end.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 11:44 AM | Locked

Philip Spitzer:
This is a great example of why I didn't care for L3 topic searches. It gave the appearance of finding everything but didn't. I found that not every heading was tagged correctly and many hits were missed from the topic searches when searching the journals. I created an excel file with every heading from theological journals 1-10 (about 70,000 headings). L3 consistently missed very good articles on the topic.  We may be in the wilderness for a little while as they attempt to find a better way but I think we will come out ahead in the end.

Thanks Philip much appreciated. I just finished watching one of Roberts video clip and i was wondering perhaps creating a customised guide with the Bibliotheca Sacra showing up in the collection section on the passage guide may just do the trick for me. I see the problem with V3 in your pics and am still hoping for the best with V4.

I have been reading most of your post & Bobs. You guys just get V4.Yes

Ted

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Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 11:52 AM | Locked

Ted Hans:
I have been reading most of your post & Bobs. You guys just get V4.Yes

Glad to be able to help. If your interested in the Excel file until something in L4 is emplemented let me know. It hyperlinks to the L4 article and gives you a TOC popup for the journal its in. If you know how to filter columns in Excel it can be pretty handy.

Posts 54
Rick Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 12:59 PM | Locked

Robert:

That does increase the utility a tad but again it removes many references.  If Logos would simply list the books with the ability to expand the individual results under them it would make it much more usable.  Your marriage search resulted in 23 pages of results and I'd have to scroll through 23 pages of results without the ability of bypassing those resources I know will not return what I'm looking for.  Also, why force me to scroll to the bottom of the screen to get to the next page?

I understand the issues with the old topic search but going overboard in the other direction isn't the answer either.  There has to be someway of condensing the displayed output so I'm not scrolling through page after page after page of non-relevant returns for my purposes.

Again, I think there is a huge potential with L4 it just needs refinement. 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 1:02 PM | Locked

Rick...

I think we'd all vote for that expandable thingy...me included....

I think that part of what's not apparant is that topics are "first on the list" and "peripheral references" are lower...just like a Google search....

 

But yes....I like the expandable thing....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 2:37 PM | Locked

Is it possible in L4 to rank the results based on a hierarchy of values? 

I am thinking of how my spam filter rates email as spam, but in this case it would rate hits for value.

For example.

Words occurring in the Title of an article get 5 points

Frequency of words / article length would get rated 0 points to 10.

I don't know what else it would rate, but ultimately the results we see would be listed based on the highest point value. 

 

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Posts 18
Philip G Layton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 3:16 PM | Locked

Philip, is your Excel file of Journal index something you could email / post somewhere to share the fruit of your labor for us others?

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