Oxyrhynchus Papyri (vols. 1–15) - surely there are others interested!!!

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Posts 452
Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Nov 4 2011 5:53 PM

I Pre-ordered on 12/9/2010 for $240.92 AUD (249.95 USD)* and have not seen any movement...if it were up to me all other work would stop until this resource (and maybe the Patrologia) was completed...but that's me.  Since the release of Perseus, I have really enjoyed following through on many of the references in TDNT, LSJ, etc.  So many are able to be found now...but the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are missing...and I was hoping many others would now realise the value and order.  Would a smiley help?  Stick out tongue

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 6:26 PM

First, for others wondering: http://www.logos.com/product/6737/oxyrhynchus-papyri

Secondly, Is, your suggestions are always good.

Third, for a long time (for me), I had this on my orders. I thought it was pretty obvious, if you did much in the NT.

And that leads to fourth, and demonstrating my ignorance here, but what is the difference between this resource and the 3 resources that came down in the Perseus Collection?

I only ask, since from the Logos OP resource, it's hard to tell exactly what is being offered.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 452
Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 6:47 PM

Denise, thank you for your kindness...and I had not realised that there were some of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri in Perseus...thank you for pointing that out....now I must go and play some more...lol!!!  Just learning what you have and don't have is a big task, isn't it!

This does make me wonder what Logos' offering re:Oxy is versus what we already have in Perseus.

If memory serves me correct, you're the Syriac ... mmm ... (being careful) ... "enthusiast" aren't you?  I really only ordered the Georgas Press collection so others who need it wouldn't have to wait so long...and hoping I can benefit in the future.  So, I was wondering if there was a way to find out what the Syriac equivalent is for a Greek word with the tools that came with this collection (or with Platinum)...realising I don't know the Syriac alphabet yet.  Anyway, just wondering.

Posts 298
Hapax Legomena | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 7:05 PM

Pre-ordered 7/15/2010.  Perseus Collection = documentary papyri.  Oxy = literary papyri.  There is some overlap.

Posts 452
Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 7:11 PM

Hapax Legomena:
There is some overlap.

Yeah...I did not know what the difference was, but I soon found out that the Perseus offering is incomplete.  I tried to find

P. Oxy., XIII, 1609 - only to discover XII goes straight to XIV. 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 7:43 PM

Thank you 'Hapax'! That clarifies it a lot.

Is ... I'm no syriac expert. I think James is, and he can probably do a much better job than I. And thank you for your graciousness regarding the Georgas.

Regarding your question, I don't know of any direct greek/syriac pairing per se (they arrive from opposite ends of the syntactic spectrum).

However the two Georgas english resources (one on the 2 gospels, and the other the NT 'peshitto') are fairly literal translations. I have those two resources, the two coptic english resources (Horner), and then the majority-text and NA27 interlinear (plus Vulgate DM) all hooked together.

That way, a quick glance across all speaks volumes. To get to the literal syriac requires pulling up the NT Peshitta and then right-clicking the word of interest (this resource is tagged and Logos has an analytical syriac resource so the lookup is easy).

As an example today, I was in Deu 21:22, the issue being why the MT and LXX both go with a very obvious 'hang', Luke, Acts and Gal also go with 'hang' but Christianity as a whole is 'nailed' (for what at most would be a very 'egotistical' rabbi). If you track 'crucify' backward, you end up with the Latin 'crux', jump over to the greek impale, which then leads you over to Persia which apparently developed that type of punishment. But on the way, the syriac Peshitta uses 'lift up' (matching John's 3 Jesus allusions). One final check was what did the (later?) Targums use in Deu (aramaic). Turns out the Onqelos and Pseud-Jonathan used 'impale'. Now why would they have chose that except the greek? Now I was really curious exactly what was going on.

But the Tanakh translation 'finished me off' when they used 'impale' in the Deu reference. Why, I haven't a clue! But the Peshitta / John connect was very interesting.

 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 7:51 PM

Doesn't The Oxyrhynchus Papyri interact with Moulton & Milligan's (M&M) The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament or perhaps the other way around?

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 9:56 PM

Denise Barnhart:
As an example today, I was in Deu 21:22, the issue being why the MT and LXX both go with a very obvious 'hang', Luke, Acts and Gal also go with 'hang' but Christianity as a whole is 'nailed' (for what at most would be a very 'egotistical' rabbi). If you track 'crucify' backward, you end up with the Latin 'crux', jump over to the greek impale, which then leads you over to Persia which apparently developed that type of punishment. But on the way, the syriac Peshitta uses 'lift up' (matching John's 3 Jesus allusions). One final check was what did the (later?) Targums use in Deu (aramaic). Turns out the Onqelos and Pseud-Jonathan used 'impale'. Now why would they have chose that except the greek? Now I was really curious exactly what was going on.

It probably was "impale."  It sounds like a good ole custom — Vlad the Impaler (Romanian).  I think crucifixion was introduced by the Romans.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 452
Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 4 2011 10:43 PM

Denise Barnhart:
To get to the literal syriac requires pulling up the NT Peshitta and then right-clicking the word of interest (this resource is tagged and Logos has an analytical syriac resource so the lookup is easy).

Oh Denise...I feel so thick today...however, I have learned two very valuable things from this thread.  Firstly, that the Perseus collection has the documentary papyri from Oxyrhynchus...and secondly, that the NT Peshitta is morphologically tagged (how did I miss that)...I was wondering the value of the Georgas collection up until now...but this makes me well pleased...now just got to try and learn the Syriac alphabet (groan).

I have been studying 2 Cor 3:18...especially the Greek word κατοπτριζόμενοι, really just trying to get a background of further usage since it is a hapax legonema.  Even though I can't dig very much into the Syriac...I can now see that when the Syriac version was translated they thought of this in terms of beholding in a mirror (as KJV, NKJV) instead of one's reflection (RSV, NIV) or mere contemplation (Vulgate).  Please, I could be wrong with all this...as I said, I'm still studying it and having fun learning all the different tools available (I am no scholar, just have an interest).

So, again Denise (and Hapax - cool name!), thanks for your insights shared on this thread.

Posts 6
Fredrick J. Long | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 9:38 AM

On 2 Cor 3:18, and gazing as in a mirror--I have done research into the religious allusions in 2 Cor 2-7, and discovered quite a few to the Isis Cult parade at Cenchrea (near Corinth) as depicted in Apuleius' work Metamorphoses known also as "The Golden Ass." It dates to around AD 120, but describes transformation, depicts devotees to the goddess having mirrors reflecting back to the image of the goddess behind them in the parade; at the high point of the story, Isis talks of "the day of salvation" (cf. 2 Cor 6!).  Here is a portion of a paper I presented at the annual Society of Biblical Literature entitled 

‘The God of This Age’ (2 Cor 4:4) and Paul’s Empire-Resisting Gospel for Corinth  Presented initially at the Annual SBL Meeting in San Francisco, Nov 19, 2011 in the Intertextuality in the New Testament Session, but subsequently substantially revised.

 

1.     3:16-18 Transformation (μεταμορφόω) occurs by looking upon the glory of the Lord by the Spirit. // This is paralleled in Apulius’ Metamorphoses, with a setting in Cenchrea (!);  salvation consisted of Lucius’ physical restoration into human form by Isis.[1]

2.     3:18a “Beholding as in a mirror [κατοπτρίζω] the glory of the Lord…” // In the Isis cult parade described in Apuleius (Metamorph. 11.9), processional devotees carried mirrors on their backs to reflect back the idol goddess which followed them.[2]

3.     3:18b “Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord we are being transformed into the same image [εἰκών]”; εἰκών is found again at 4:4 in reference to Christ. // This is a terminus technicus for the image of the emperor celebrated within both mystery and imperial cults and as were carried in cultic procession.[3] See fuller treatment further below.



[1] Apul. 11.16 (278, 5-10); Duff, “Transformation of the Spectator,” 240-41.

[2]Other women had reversed shining mirrors behind their backs to show respect to the goddess as she moved after them;” as quoted in Attridge, “Making Scents of Paul,” 81; Attridge does not connect the mirrors with Paul’s use of κατοπτρίζω.

[3] H. W. Pleket, “An Aspect of the Emperor Cult: Imperial Mysteries,” HTR 58 (1965): 331-47. To be distinguished from εκόνες are the θεν γάλματα (“images of the gods”) also carried in triumphal parades (e.g. Jos. B.J. 1.136).

Fredrick J. Long

Asbury Theological Seminary

Fredrick.long@asburyseminary.edu

Posts 887
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 9:48 AM

DMB:

First, for others wondering: http://www.logos.com/product/6737/oxyrhynchus-papyri

Secondly, Is, your suggestions are always good.

Third, for a long time (for me), I had this on my orders. I thought it was pretty obvious, if you did much in the NT.

And that leads to fourth, and demonstrating my ignorance here, but what is the difference between this resource and the 3 resources that came down in the Perseus Collection?

I only ask, since from the Logos OP resource, it's hard to tell exactly what is being offered.

Here's a working link, as the product number has changed: http://www.logos.com/product/16528/oxyrhynchus-papyri

And it's only $150 CP now (what I bid).

 

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 10:21 AM

Thank you very much, Fredrick. Wish many others as well informed as you would contribute too!

I have to admit though, the image of a parade of people with mirrors looking backward seemed oddly funny. Almost modern.

And Eric ... also thank you for the update.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 450
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 10:23 AM

A bid of $150 is just to rich for my taste. I'd join in if it was much lower - the papyri seems to be very interesting. Just nothing useful to me in a non-academic role.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 10:41 AM

Alexander Longacre:

A bid of $150 is just to rich for my taste. I'd join in if it was much lower - the papyri seems to be very interesting. Just nothing useful to me in a non-academic role.

You don't need to go with the current bid (I didn't).  Bid what you think appropriate.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 11:16 AM

Gee, George. With the latest CNN reporting on Oxyrhynchian spies working south of Thebes, and todays' global communications networks, I'd hate to even imagine what may happen next.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 11:33 AM

DMB:

Gee, George. With the latest CNN reporting on Oxyrhynchian spies working south of Thebes, and todays' global communications networks, I'd hate to even imagine what may happen next.

I wouldn't know what CNN has been reporting since I don't watch the Lame Stream Media.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2837
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 11:45 AM

George Somsel:
You don't need to go with the current bid (I didn't).  Bid what you think appropriate.

Okay George, I am in at $90. I can't see myself raising my bid past $100 but I have been known to change my mind. Let's wait and see!

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 887
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 15 2012 8:59 AM

C'mon, everyone - let's get this down below $100. I'll pay $150, but I'd very much prefer to pay much, much less. Cool

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 570
Rev Chris | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 15 2012 9:34 AM

Ted Hans:

George Somsel:
You don't need to go with the current bid (I didn't).  Bid what you think appropriate.

Okay George, I am in at $90. I can't see myself raising my bid past $100 but I have been known to change my mind. Let's wait and see!

I somehow overlooked this CP.  I'm in at $90 now as well.  Perhaps we can convince those with higher bids to lower it to $90 and try to push that price point up to make the resource more appealing to others?

Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 15 2012 9:43 AM

Eric Weiss:

C'mon, everyone - let's get this down below $100. I'll pay $150, but I'd very much prefer to pay much, much less. Cool

No!  We want more, More, MORE !   Wink  (Don't believe it).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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