Greek grammar

I spent two years on-campus at my seminary and now have been 1 year online. I have dramatically slowed down with everything else going on(we have moved to take care of my wife's parents). I want to stay fresh with my Greek and Hebrew. I am using Futato's Hebrew but would like some suggestions for Greek. I used Mounce in seminary. I have Nunn's 3 volume but was also looking at two other resources. Hellenika or Kairos. Any suggestions?

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Brian Davidson

I suggest reading Stanley Porter's Idioms of the Greek New Testament. It is a concise, clearly written intermediate grammar. It is available in Logos format here. The chapters are relatively short, and that makes it easy to read in Logos format. The Logos version is also easy to use as a reference grammar.

Alan Charles Gielczyk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303781#Comment_303781

Thanks Brian! That looks great and I think I will get it but I want to go back through a first year grammar to reinforce the foundation. This book will give me a good place to go once I have done that though, thanks again for the recommendation.

Dean J

I have not read either book. Perhaps a library could order them so you could try them out. Kairos looks very good, apart from one thing - I have tried grammars before that introduce later concepts in the reading, and found this very frustrating. Has this been covered and I missed it or didn't understand it? Is it still to come? It may or may not be a problem to others. Personally, I'd recommend Hansen's Greek: An Intensive Course as the only Greek textbook that will quickly enable a person to read real Greek (in this case, Classical). I have seen Mounce's textbook and think it has some significant weaknesses - but I would be interested to know how successfully people have learned to read the NT using it.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303781#Comment_303781

I suggest reading Stanley Porter's Idioms of the Greek New Testament. It is a concise, clearly written intermediate grammar. It is available in Logos format here. The chapters are relatively short, and that makes it easy to read in Logos format. The Logos version is also easy to use as a reference grammar.

I would not suggest Porter unless you are more advanced in Greek. Some of his views are quite controversial.

George Somsel

I spent two years on-campus at my seminary and now have been 1 year online. I have dramatically slowed down with everything else going on(we have moved to take care of my wife's parents). I want to stay fresh with my Greek and Hebrew. I am using Futato's Hebrew but would like some suggestions for Greek. I used Mounce in seminary. I have Nunn's 3 volume but was also looking at two other resources. Hellenika or Kairos. Any suggestions?

I would not particularly suggest anything in Logos. My favorite text for Greek is Smyth Greek Grammar; unfortunately, while it is in a collection (http://www.logos.com/product/4679/biblical-languages-reference-grammars-and-introductions), it isn't making rapid progress. Smyth is oriented more toward classical Greek, but is sometimes the most applicable grammar to some NT texts as well as being generally applicable to any period of Greek. A. T. Robertson has almost everything in it, but it can be somewhat intimidating. Moulton-Howard-Turner is also good. Also, I would recommend Steve Runge's book on discourse grammar, but it is more oriented to some of the refinements.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303827#Comment_303827

I would not suggest Porter unless you are more advanced in Greek. Some of his views are quite controversial.

Do you know where I can find these criticisms - I've just looked at it and it looks very good. I'm thinking of getting it.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303830#Comment_303830

I would not suggest Porter unless you are more advanced in Greek. Some of his views are quite controversial.

Do you know where I can find these criticisms - I've just looked at it and it looks very good. I'm thinking of getting it.

I said that some of his views are controversial. I did not categorically say he was wrong, nor did I say that he wasn't valuable to the more advanced Greek student. I simply would not recommend it for one who is not more advanced. There is some disagreement between Porter and Buist Fanning.

EDIT: You might check http://www.gbcfrederick.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Czqwr9U0LYc%3D&tabid=57&mid=396 for some discussion of the differences.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303836#Comment_303836

I said that some of his views are controversial. I did not categorically say he was wrong, nor did I say that he wasn't valuable to the more advanced Greek student. I simply would not recommend it for one who is not more advanced. There is some disagreement between Porter and Buist Fanning.

EDIT: You might check http://www.gbcfrederick.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Czqwr9U0LYc%3D&tabid=57&mid=396 for some discussion of the differences.

FYI, I did not say that you said he is wrong. I did not say that you said it wouldn't be valuable to a more advanced Greek student. I was asking for myself and no-one else.

Thanks for the link.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303839#Comment_303839

I said that some of his views are controversial. I did not categorically say he was wrong, nor did I say that he wasn't valuable to the more advanced Greek student. I simply would not recommend it for one who is not more advanced. There is some disagreement between Porter and Buist Fanning.

EDIT: You might check http://www.gbcfrederick.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Czqwr9U0LYc%3D&tabid=57&mid=396 for some discussion of the differences.

FYI, I did not say that you said he is wrong. I did not say that you said it wouldn't be valuable to a more advanced Greek student. I was asking for myself and no-one else.

Thanks for the link.

Here is another very recent and very brief discussion of the differences — http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=862&sid=cf253ad1d3c4787089d7284429780108

Donnie Hale

I'm by no means an expert, but I think Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" is a standard "intermediate" (closer to advanced, I think) Greek grammar. It's in Logos. Also, David Alan Black's "Learn to Read New Testament Greek" is good (IMO) and also in Logos.

Donnie

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303963#Comment_303963

I'm by no means an expert, but I think Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" is a standard "intermediate" (closer to advanced, I think) Greek grammar. It's in Logos. Also, David Alan Black's "Learn to Read New Testament Greek" is good (IMO) and also in Logos.

Donnie

I have some problems with Wallace. He has a tendency to overcategorize options — even having an "aporetic" genitive meaning "who knows?" To a Greek a genitive was simply a genitive, and he wouldn't stop to consider how he would categorize it. Add to that the fact that he frequently gives instructions on determining how one would categorize items by resorting to how one would translate it. It seems to me that by the time one determines how to translate something he has already categorized it. It's kind of putting the cart before the horse (though on a humorous note I've seen pictures of a case somewhere where this is precisely what is done [:)]).

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303964#Comment_303964

I have some problems with Wallace.

Is there a resource you prefer to Wallace in that space? Or do you just use Somsel's intermediate / advanced grammar at this point?

Your point about how a Greek person would have thought about the text is one I think about a lot. He wouldn't stop to consider a genitive's category, but he didnt' have to because context and other factors made it an act requiring no conscious thought.

Given that, for translation purposes it seems like some consistency is in order - translate genitives in as consistent a fashion as reasonably possible. But for interpretive purposes, it seems that what was innate / intuitive for the Greek has to be codified, to the degree that's possible, for us.

Donnie

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303972#Comment_303972

Is there a resource you prefer to Wallace in that space? Or do you just use Somsel's intermediate / advanced grammar at this point?

I'm not an authority — simply somewhat informed. My go-to guys are (1) Robertson (2) Moulton-Howard-Turner (3) DBF. I also like Burton for some things.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303963#Comment_303963

I'm by no means an expert, but I think Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" is a standard "intermediate" (closer to advanced, I think) Greek grammar. It's in Logos. Also, David Alan Black's "Learn to Read New Testament Greek" is good (IMO) and also in Logos.

Donnie

As a reference book it is useful (though I concur with George's comments), but an intermediate textbook should focus on reading actual texts with copious notes and references to standard grammars, such as Steadman's books (available online for free). Being able to over-analyse grammatical forms without being able to fluently read the text is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303964#Comment_303964

I have some problems with Wallace. He has a tendency to overcategorize options — even having an "aporetic" genitive meaning "who knows?" To a Greek a genitive was simply a genitive, and he wouldn't stop to consider how he would categorize it. Add to that the fact that he frequently gives instructions on determining how one would categorize items by resorting to how one would translate it. It seems to me that by the time one determines how to translate something he has already categorized it. It's kind of putting the cart before the horse (though on a humorous note I've seen pictures of a case somewhere where this is precisely what is done ).

Yes and no. When an English-speak person talks of 'a bucket of water', 'a house of glass', 'a man of God', 'a bit of trouble' etc, he is using the word 'of' quite unconsciously in different ways. Fortunately, Greek and English both being Indo-European, the usages of 'of' and the genitive correspond quite closely. We don't think twice about it, but its useful to be aware of them. The Greek genitive is not 'just a genitive' - it has a variety of functions, including some of the functions of the old ablative, and the meaning is only clear from context and the use of prepositions etc. We don't think twice about 'of', but it wouldn't really be accurate to say 'to an English speaker, 'of' just means 'of''

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303980#Comment_303980

We don't think twice about 'of', but it wouldn't really be accurate to say 'to an English speaker, 'of' just means 'of''

I thought it would be readily understood that I was being just a tad hyperbolic. Of course there are different usages, but we really don't think about it much.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303979#Comment_303979

Being able to over-analyse grammatical forms without being able to fluently read the text is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Absolutely. The key is wide-ranging and copious reading in the language. This will give a feel for the language.

Alan Charles Gielczyk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/303984#Comment_303984

I appreciate all the dialog, I really do, but I am looking for a first year grammar. I have all the intermediate grammars except for Porter's, and I am looking for something to go through and reinforce the foundation.

George, I really appreciate your last comment about reading the texts and the wide variety at that. This is such a basic piece of advice I tend to forget and now with Perseus have an opportunity to broaden my Greek horizens, thanks.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304110#Comment_304110

My advice would remain the same - use Hansen's Greek: An Intensive Course, which is a first year grammar of Classical Greek. It has worked wonders for people, and once you get into the collections on Perseus, you'll find that NT Greek is relatively straightforward. Every grammatical point is reinforced through specific readings and exercises, and that is the way to go in my opinion. F. F. Bruce once said (and I wish I made a note of the reference) that you can't really know NT Greek without reading the literature of the wider Greek world.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304119#Comment_304119

My advice would remain the same - use Hansen's Greek: An Intensive Course, which is a first year grammar of Classical Greek. It has worked wonders for people, and once you get into the collections on Perseus, you'll find that NT Greek is relatively straightforward. Every grammatical point is reinforced through specific readings and exercises, and that is the way to go in my opinion. F. F. Bruce once said (and I wish I made a note of the reference) that you can't really know NT Greek without reading the literature of the wider Greek world.

Well, if we're going to 1st year classical grammars, my preference is Crosby & Schaffer which I used in college. It has a large number of excerpts from Greek literature and thus exposes the student to a variety of texts. The printing/publication which I used was not very good in that the printing was smudgey, but I believe the current printing is quite good.

Fred Greco

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304119#Comment_304119

My advice would remain the same - use Hansen's Greek: An Intensive Course, which is a first year grammar of Classical Greek. It has worked wonders for people, and once you get into the collections on Perseus, you'll find that NT Greek is relatively straightforward. Every grammatical point is reinforced through specific readings and exercises, and that is the way to go in my opinion. F. F. Bruce once said (and I wish I made a note of the reference) that you can't really know NT Greek without reading the literature of the wider Greek world.

I would second this recommendation. Hansen is very good. It was what I used a couple of decades ago when I began my Classics studies.

Is Mebin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304119#Comment_304119

F. F. Bruce once said (and I wish I made a note of the reference) that you can't really know NT Greek without reading the literature of the wider Greek world.

What a quote!!! If you find where it comes from, please share...or I'll have to quote you...lol!

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304229#Comment_304229

F. F. Bruce once said (and I wish I made a note of the reference) that you can't really know NT Greek without reading the literature of the wider Greek world.

What a quote!!! If you find where it comes from, please share...or I'll have to quote you...lol!

A quick search yielded a quote - it's probably the one I'm thinking of:

[quote] Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon deals primarily with classical Greek, but no student of the New Testament can afford to ignore classical usage. I have met students who claimed to ‘know Greek’ on the basis of their acquaintance with the Greek New Testament; even if that latter acquaintance were exhaustive, it would no more amount to a knowledge of Greek than acquaintance with the English New Testament would amount to a knowledge of English.

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304237#Comment_304237

So if a person took 4 years of piano and was well versed in the science of the instrument and the music but couldn't really play one, that would roughly be the state of colleges and seminaries graduating students of Biblical Greek, but they being unable to actually pick up a Greek book and read it or tell you what a word meant outside the context of the Bible. Is that too harsh? Or does our educational approach to teaching Greek need to be adjusted?

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304240#Comment_304240

So if a person took 4 years of piano and was well versed in the science of the instrument and the music but couldn't really play one, that would roughly be the state of colleges and seminaries graduating students of Biblical Greek, but they being unable to actually pick up a Greek book and read it or tell you what a word meant outside the context of the Bible. Is that too harsh? Or does our educational approach to teaching Greek need to be adjusted?

I wouldn't want to say it, but I've yet to meet anyone who has learned it that route, and frankly I would have to see it to believe that any even could learn Greek via the Mounce/Wallace track. We have to go easier on the memory - the memory is for paradigms and vocab - reading copious examples and illustrations in the target language is for imprinting it on the mind, not endless definitions and grammatical over analysis. I'd love the chance to teach some solid classical Greek in seminary and have students actually reading the NT within two years. It shouldn't be rocket science.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304240#Comment_304240

So if a person took 4 years of piano and was well versed in the science of the instrument and the music but couldn't really play one, that would roughly be the state of colleges and seminaries graduating students of Biblical Greek, but they being unable to actually pick up a Greek book and read it or tell you what a word meant outside the context of the Bible. Is that too harsh? Or does our educational approach to teaching Greek need to be adjusted?

I would agree that the educational approach to teaching Greek needs to be revised with regard to the New Testament. While the discovery of the Oxyrhynchus papyri revealed that the NT was not written in a "Holy Ghost Greek" but was the language common at the time with somewhat different usages from classical Greek, it must not be forgotten that a great deal of the usage in the NT is carried over from classical. I would recommend that Greek instruction begin with classical and then proceed to koine with extensive readings in Greek of the period drawn from disparate sources. Reading of Greek from other sources is the key.

Jim L. West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304245#Comment_304245

So, for someone who knows koine Greek, reads from the NT daily, and has many Greek works in L4 ( Philo, the Apostolic Fathers, and now the Perseus collection) where would be a good place to start expanding outside of the NT.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304292#Comment_304292

So, for someone who knows koine Greek, reads from the NT daily, and has many Greek works in L4 ( Philo, the Apostolic Fathers, and now the Perseus collection) where would be a good place to start expanding outside of the NT.

While you should expand beyond anything too similar to the NT, you might start with Epictetus and Lucian in the process of getting your feet wet since they aren't too different from the NT language. Later you can expand into differing periods.

Hapax Legomena

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304292#Comment_304292

So, for someone who knows koine Greek, reads from the NT daily, and has many Greek works in L4 ( Philo, the Apostolic Fathers, and now the Perseus collection) where would be a good place to start expanding outside of the NT.

Xenophon's Anabasis. This is available in Perseus and is the traditional first "real" classical Greek work that students tackled.

Jim L. West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304296#Comment_304296

Thanks to both George and Hapax. Both are helpful. I have both of them in Greek, in L4, and have read both in English, so at least have some idea of what they are about. On to reading Greek.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/304110#Comment_304110

I appreciate all the dialog, I really do, but I am looking for a first year grammar. I have all the intermediate grammars except for Porter's, and I am looking for something to go through and reinforce the foundation.

Wonder about reading Greek New Testament Insert => logosres:chapman;art=s.1.0.0

Keep Smiling [:)]