Outdated and expensive

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Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 28 2013 9:34 AM

Well I don't know about that part about getting something instead - I don't think I will. I can't afford both technical and non-technical (i.e. grammar-less) even in the long run. (Related: btw, I won't be using the student-discount while in college because licenses for resources bought with Logos student discount can't be transferred to anyone. I may still be somewhat young, 31, but I think ahead and want to be able to transfer everything: books, notes and highlightings to a friend when I get too old a long while from now):

George Somsel:
For those who don't know the biblical languages, I would recommend an author who is knowledgeable in the languages but who doesn't concentrate exclusively on them.

Aply!
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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 28 2013 10:16 AM

Unix:

Well I don't know about that part about getting something instead - I don't think I will. I can't afford both technical and non-technical (i.e. grammar-less) even in the long run. (Related: btw, I won't be using the student-discount while in college because licenses for resources bought with Logos student discount can't be transferred to anyone. I may still be somewhat young, 31, but I think ahead and want to be able to transfer everything: books, notes and highlightings to a friend when I get too old a long while from now):

George Somsel:
For those who don't know the biblical languages, I would recommend an author who is knowledgeable in the languages but who doesn't concentrate exclusively on them.

Yeah, that's something of a bummer.  I can understand Logos' position since that might enable some unscrupulous person to purchase them and then transfer them to another.  Perhaps that could be avoided by enabling transfer after a certain number of years.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 3:32 PM

I started to ask on the previous page for advise about my open pre-pub orders!

Anyone with a piece of advice on what I should do about these orders? Here's a quote from http://www.christianforums.com/t7736387-post62981989/#post62981989:

Unix:
I would be glad if someone pops in an encourages me to cancel for example these:

  • International Critical Commentary Upgrade Collection (6 vols.) $149.95
  • Reverse Interlinear Revised Standard Version New Testament $49.95 (that's just the Gk data, the English would not go away if canceling)
  • Justpeace Ethics $10.95
  • The Works of Aristotle (12 vols.) $40

I'm a bit unwilling to cancel:

  • Catholic Practicum
  • Worship in the Early Church: An Anthology of Historical Sources (4 vols.)

... but if some more people would bother to convince me to give up on them, I'm all ears!

As I've ordered a very cheap copy of the first volume that includes Apostolic Fathers and Origen in Worship in the Early Church: An Anthology of Historical Sources (4 vols.), I've started to think that I'll cancel it. I'm however more worried about the cost for the ICC Upgrade and whether I'll ever be able to use it.

Aply!
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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 3:57 PM

Unix:

I started to ask on the previous page for advise about my open pre-pub orders!

Anyone with a piece of advice on what I should do about these orders? Here's a quote from http://www.christianforums.com/t7736387-post62981989/#post62981989:

Unix:
I would be glad if someone pops in an encourages me to cancel for example these:

  • International Critical Commentary Upgrade Collection (6 vols.) $149.95
  • Reverse Interlinear Revised Standard Version New Testament $49.95 (that's just the Gk data, the English would not go away if canceling)
  • Justpeace Ethics $10.95
  • The Works of Aristotle (12 vols.) $40

I'm a bit unwilling to cancel:

  • Catholic Practicum
  • Worship in the Early Church: An Anthology of Historical Sources (4 vols.)

... but if some more people would bother to convince me to give up on them, I'm all ears!

As I've ordered a very cheap copy of the first volume that includes Apostolic Fathers and Origen in Worship in the Early Church: An Anthology of Historical Sources (4 vols.), I've started to think that I'll cancel it. I'm however more worried about the cost for the ICC Upgrade and whether I'll ever be able to use it.

Why should anyone want to talk you into canceling your orders? If it's someone who is in on these pre-pubs, they will want everyone who has bid to stay in. If it's someone who hasn't, they won't give a rip whether you cancel or not. I'm afraid you're going to have to make your own decision based on your own financial circumstances and reading preferences. Don't drag in someone else who you can then blame if you later regret not having bought these.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 4:03 PM

Rosie Perera:
Why should anyone want to talk you into canceling your orders? If it's someone who is in on these pre-pubs, they will want everyone who has bid to stay in. If it's someone who hasn't, they won't give a rip whether you cancel or not. I'm afraid you're going to have to make your own decision based on your own financial circumstances and reading preferences. Don't drag in someone else who you can then blame if you later regret not having bought these.

I had the same response when I read your post Unix.

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Posts 2814
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 5:57 PM

Outdated?  Compared to what?  Perhaps I am ignorant, but I prefer Logos to any other Bible Software that I know.  I can't agree that it is outdated.  There are things I wish they would improve - speed, personal books on the iPad, etc.  But I don't know anyone who does it better.

Expensive?  You bet.  Books are expensive whether paper books or electronic books like Logos.  Would your ICC set be cheaper in paper?  I don't think so.  Would it be as useful in paper?  I don't think so.

Of course, everyone's opinion is their own, and you are the expert on your opinion.  I am the expert on my opinion.  And for what it's worth, this is it.

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 6:11 PM

Michael Childs:

Outdated?  Compared to what?  Perhaps I am ignorant, but I prefer Logos to any other Bible Software that I know.  I can't agree that it is outdated.  There are things I wish they would improve - speed, personal books on the iPad, etc.  But I don't know anyone who does it better.

Expensive?  You bet.  Books are expensive whether paper books or electronic books like Logos.  Would your ICC set be cheaper in paper?  I don't think so.  Would it be as useful in paper?  I don't think so.

Of course, everyone's opinion is their own, and you are the expert on your opinion.  I am the expert on my opinion.  And for what it's worth, this is it.

 

I don't believe he was characterizing Logos.  What he considered outdated and expensive was the ICC.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 11:43 PM

Rosie and others who agreed with Rosie, I would have responded earlier, but it was night here. I won't be blaiming anyone and I won't regret if I cancel some of these, especially the expensive ones. What I will regret is if I don't cancel. Like I've said I don't know almost any Gk yet, and will I ever use the ICC? Isn't ICC one of the commentaries that has the most advanced level of Gk grammar? Can I use the Jn 1-4 volume while studying and the rest of the volumes after a few years of studies that will mostly consist of Gk studies at 50% of full time pace?

Currently I don't seem to have enough character to cancel them. I'm thinking what IF I need some of these items?:

Rosie Perera:
Don't drag in someone else who you can then blame if you later regret not having bought these.


I think I would value the volumes like this:

The sum would be: $115. But considering they would be much more expensive bought later, individually, or as printed matter, it still might be worth it! As the Upgrade costs $149.95, that would be an average of $37½ a volume that I will use but don't already have.

In comparison, I will use at least 21 of the Hermeneia and Continental Commentaries (the 63-volume set + Upgrade 3), and will have paid around $795. (Started by buying on of the volumes as printed matter: Mt 8-20; and set was on a sale.) And that's ~$38 a volume. (Earlier on I used two volumes that I no longer use: the both Gal -volumes.)

Another comparison: I have the UBS Handbook New Testament in Accordance, I bought the set used for $115 including license transfer fee. I had to duplicate the Revised English Bible, which cost $27, but I'm having use for it in the meantime until it comes in Logos, so let's say that that's just $20 extra. The Starter Collection cost $45 but includes a new Eerdmans Bible dictionary that I value $30. I've calculated that during a lifetime I will have to and/or want to upgrade Accordance for an additional ~$233 just to keep it functional - and the reason for keeping it up-to-date and the only reason I bought Accordance - is of course the UBS Handbook NT, if I would have bought it in Logos I would not have this additional upgrade cost. I have bought two books to it that are not in Logos and that are a bit unlikely to come in Logos - both of them, so I would value the impact of those to -$60 off. So the total cost for the NT set would be: $115+$20+$15+$233-$60=$323.
I have a pre-order for the UBS Handbook Upgrade for $119.95 in Logos.
I would use ~15½ of the volumes, one of which is on a very short book (Jude). So if I round that off to 15 volumes, the cost is: $29½ a volume.

Aply!
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Posts 670
Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 3 2013 6:48 AM

Unix:
I won't be blaiming anyone and I won't regret if I cancel some of these, especially the expensive ones. What I will regret is if I don't cancel.
Hi Unix, please excuse me if I'm butting in and you think it's not my business but I can't help but to reiterate (slightly differently) the point that "Rosie and others who agreed with Rosie" were making.

I'll begin by using that ol’ time honored argument my Mom always used - “So if all your friends wanted to jump off a cliff, you would join them?”

It doesn't matter that you won't be blaming anyone, that's not the point. The point is you have got to make your own decisions based on your rationale. You really shouldn't be expecting others to correctly judge on what's the best course of action for you, because different people have different tastes and standards and expect different value from purchases especially highly subjective things like books, theology and opinions! And nobody knows better than you about your budget limitations and how much you can afford to spend now or in the near future.

Just a friendly advise that you can of course simply ignore if you wish. Cheers.

Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 3 2013 7:20 AM

Well regarding that part: I won't afford better in the future. (But I could as well cancel and save the money for the future):

Sleiman:
And nobody knows better than you about your budget limitations and how much you can afford to spend now or in the near future.

Aply!
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Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 4 2013 6:34 AM

What I'm wondering is if these ICC volumes can be effectively used for its purpose, that's the criteria I'm trying to use when selecting commentaries.

  • I'm keen on reading the introductions in ICC. My library, including my print library, has too few or too short introductions when it comes to most of the books of the Bible. (Although in some cases I don't study the Bible book.)
  • Like I already said, I would greatly benefit from Gk Jn and such when studying Gk, as Jn is a standard text in colleges.
  • I won't be studying almost any Hebrew and only passage-specific, but I realize that some parts of the OT are important, and later on after I've learned Gk I will be learning LXX-Gk and I see the Septuagint as very valuable and I have a critical text with apparatus.

(It's leaning towards keeping the ICC Upgrade order. But I welcome being persuaded to the opposite because I'm even more concerned about saving money for the future. I've become more and more aware of that commentaries can become dated at some point, so I'm gearing my purchases towards recently published commentaries only, with one recent exception: the UBS Handbook New Testament set which I thought was so unique and for example contains specific information about English Bible versions that I'm very interested in such as the Revised English Bible and RSV):

Sleiman:
The point is you have got to make your own decisions based on your rationale. You really shouldn't be expecting others to correctly judge on what's the best course of action for you, because different people have different tastes and standards and expect different value from purchases especially highly subjective things like books, theology and opinions!

 


Regarding the other orders, as it's unrelated to this thread, preferably post in the Christianforums -thread: Help me decide which book orders to cancel! Registration on the forum is free. Deleting Your account is not possible. (Changing username is possible. To get rid of ads You have to pay a fee to Christianforums or have an add-on to Your Firefox or Chrome browser.)

EDIT: I just promised my best friend to cancel orders for hundreds of $. I just have too many open and too much on Christianity. I may for example cancel Aristotle, International Critical Commentary Upgrade, Worship in the Early Church, Justpeace Ethics, Reverse Interlinear RSV New Testament. And I may return The Sin Nature if it teaches Original Sin. Here are all my open ones:

Aply!
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 4 2013 8:32 PM

Unix, I appreciate why you want feedback on what is best to cancel. However, I would be uncomfortable making any suggestions. Why? Because while we have overlapping interests, your interests sound more specific - you frequently mention books of the Bible you are uninterested in and authors you thoroughly dislike. I find it too hard to remember the details of your interests to have any confidence in my suggestions. Good luck.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 18389
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 11 2013 3:26 PM

Unix, my suggestion to you would be to stop being so impulsive about ordering pre-pubs, and then you won't have such a quandary about cancelling some of them.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 11 2013 5:59 PM

George Somsel:

Unix:

Well I don't know about that part about getting something instead - I don't think I will. I can't afford both technical and non-technical (i.e. grammar-less) even in the long run. (Related: btw, I won't be using the student-discount while in college because licenses for resources bought with Logos student discount can't be transferred to anyone. I may still be somewhat young, 31, but I think ahead and want to be able to transfer everything: books, notes and highlightings to a friend when I get too old a long while from now):

George Somsel:
For those who don't know the biblical languages, I would recommend an author who is knowledgeable in the languages but who doesn't concentrate exclusively on them.

Yeah, that's something of a bummer.  I can understand Logos' position since that might enable some unscrupulous person to purchase them and then transfer them to another.  Perhaps that could be avoided by enabling transfer after a certain number of years.

I'm not 30 yet my self, but my plan is to leave my username and password in my will (or for now in my firesafe) along with instructions about who to give it to (should I be deceased), and how to decide should the designated person be uninterested/unavailable.


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Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 11 2013 6:04 PM

Unix:




I would add to your list the classic studies on the Apocrypha. But then I'm from a protestant tradition. I'm also on the fence RE the usefulness of Hermeneia.

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Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 17 2013 5:10 AM

(I canceled Justpeace Ethics two weeks ago.)

Now I deleted the International Critical Commentary Upgrade Collection (6 vols.) pre-pub order. Regarding the Isaiah volumes I have the most important part of it as printed matter and I think I can manage without the introduction in volume 1 (Is 40-55). If I need that particular commentary I'll get the Jn 1-4 volume when the set is split up. I'll try to copy Philemon at some college or uni on paper.

I think I'll cancel Hermeneia and wait until it's split up in Accordance (it will likely split up sooner there) and get only the volumes I want, and also get LSJ in Accordance (it's a few $ cheaper there, but comes without the 1996 supplement, see discussion: LSJ with or without the 1996 supplement?). LSJ can be used for Lk.

I don't know what to do about Aristotle - probably I'll cancel it.
Probably I'll cancel Classic Commentaries and Studies on the Biblical Apocrypha/Deuterocanon also.

I'll save $390 but will have to pay ~$100 to Accordance.

Aply!
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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 6:49 AM

I bought the Hermeneia Upgrade 3 for the pre-pub price. And it's leaning toward getting LSJ in Logos - it would also be good for The Works of Aristotle.
Out of items that ship within a month, I'm unsure what to do about The Works of Aristotle (June 3.) and Classic Commentaries and Studies on the Biblical Apocrypha/Deuterocanon (today). Please someone advice me!

I have started a poll about this: Should I cancel Works of
Aristotle and/or Classic studies on the Deuterocanonicals?
:

abondservant:
I would add to your list the classic studies on the Apocrypha. But then I'm from a protestant tradition. I'm also on the fence RE the usefulness of Hermeneia.


I did a calculation: I added the cost for the remaining orders, including one that I paid on April 15. 2013, that were the most impulsive (but included only half of the cost for Worship in the Early Church: an Anthology because I'll probably cancel it and ½ of RI RSV NT because it would be quite useful), including manual labour fee 10% for the orders that ship soon (I will get rid of that fee once the "Pastor's Piggy-bank" is live), and it totalled: $449.79 including a few recent pre-pub orders that I've placed:

Rosie Perera:
Unix, my suggestion to you would be to stop being so impulsive about ordering pre-pubs,




EDIT: I just made a budget for the next 12 years starting today, excluding my home. My income during that period (I'm sure about this), will be $100,000:

  • Books (both printed matter and in Bible study softwares, not loose-leaf books or photocopying costs), Bible study softwares, word processing softwares and batteries for my laptops and cellular phone: maximally 4% of my income during 12 years, i.e. $4000.
  • Cars, car repairs, motorcycle repair (I have a "light" motorcycle, the repair costs for it will be very low), and assembling the moped, excluding fuel and tyres: €2,000-€3,500 = ($2570.80-$4498.90).
  • Parking, storage (usually 0) and moving furniture, maximally €9,100 = ($11,697.14).
  • Currency exchange rate this hour: €1 = $1.2854

Summary: a maximum share of 20% of my income should go to those things altogether, during the next 12 years starting today. Very tight budget indeed! (Currently I have pedicabs that take up a whole lot of space, I've been parking them for free for a few years but that may end this year.)

I started a discussion: Discuss my budget for treats on another forum!

Aply!
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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 7 2013 1:36 PM

It's difficult to find commentaries that strike a balance AND are not dated.

What I buy varies greatly. I cherry-pick from several different sets. Right now I'm for example reading the Philippians volume by Howard Marshall in the Epworth -series. It's a bit old but doesn't feel dated. I got it for a reasonable price as printed matter, and it has a good level of depth while not being elaborate, so it focuses well on the main problems. Due to personal disagreements with some denominations, I will however be very careful which volumes I buy. For example I avoided a recent volume on a book of the Bible that I lack a commentary on, from the Epworth -series which was cheap from a seller I was gonna buy other items from and the postage was cheap also, because the author is a Baptist.

So it's not all about money.

In the long run, to build a good library You have to have great patience. Sometimes, when You're not satisfied with what's being offered You should wait for extended periods (years, if not a decade actually) and see if something better is around the corner! There is no need to quickly get complete coverage of the entire Bible and other literature.

Even though I usually read through commentaries, I prefer verse-by-verse because I like dealing with issues. A paragraph-by-paragraph approach feels more like a survey, which I really don't like. It's a bit difficult to explain what exactly I mean, but perhaps You understand! Some paragraph-by-paragraph commentaries are fine, such as the 2 Cor 8-9 volume in Hermeneia.

I'm currently also evaluating a set on the OT. It's introductions. It's: Handbook on the Old Testament Series (4 vols.) ... what do You think of it, if You have it?

Aply!
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Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 7 2013 3:04 PM

[post user="Unix"]I'm currently also evaluating a set on the OT. It's introductions. It's: Handbook on the Old Testament Series (4 vols.) ... what do You think of it, if You have it?[/post]

Unix, I'll mail you a quarter to help you in your decision-making.  Flip it—heads you buy it; tails you don't.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 8 2013 6:06 AM

I am reading one volume in the set, but don't know what to make of it, and 2005 feels a bit old (the Wisdom volume):

George Somsel:
Unix, I'll mail you a quarter to help you in your decision-making.  Flip it—heads you buy it; tails you don't:
Unix:
I'm currently also evaluating a set on the OT. It's introductions. It's: Handbook on the Old Testament Series (4 vols.) ... what do You think of it, if You have it?

Aply!
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