Logos and Notes
I note that Bob has just declined the rather popular request for selective synchronization of notes.
Maybe it's just me, but I think Logos either needs to make notes real, or get out of notes altogether. This "riding the fence" game has gone on long enough.
Either rescind this decision and give notes real capabilities, or stick with this decision, and give up on internal notes in favor of strong ties to external notes programs. Real notes programs allow you to synchronize what you want where you want.The cloud is nice when I choose to use it, but when I don't (whatever my reasons are!), I choose not to use it. Real notes programs allow you to put in images, tables, store whole documents, cross link between notes, and a dozen other things.
Logos, it's time to decide.
Do you want to support notes, or not?
If not, then be honest about it, and spend your time making your software work better with other packages, rather than playing the notes game at all. If you do, then do it right.
I vote for strong ties to external notes programs --specifically OneNote and Evernote. Anyone else?
Russ
Comments
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Russ White said:
I vote for strong ties to external notes programs --specifically OneNote and Evernote. Anyone else?
Using OneNote is very appealing to me. As long as I've used the notes feature in Logos, I've never been satisfied with it.
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BTW, for those who don't know the differences between OneNote and Evernote, I'll try and give a summary.
OneNote is by Microsoft, and hence is generally tied to MS platforms (although there is a cloud based version that has most of the features of the local version). While OneNote is available on the iphone, windows 7.5 phone, and Windows 7, it is not available on android or OS/X, so it's platform limited. On the other hand, OneNote has strong linking capabilities into and out of the software (though there are problems in the way they've implemented this linking), and infinite levels of organization (you can have a notebook, section group, section, page, subpages to an infinite level, and then notes).
Evernote is produced by Evernote, the company. It is widely available on almost every platform. On the other hand, they've just added cross linking between notes (after many years of screaming by their user community, me included), and it doesn't have strong abilities to cross link to other software packages (a result of their strong multi-platform support). Evernote is also rather limited in their levels of organization --I think Evernote will only do three or four levels in the outline, and no deeper.
I use OneNote because of the infinite levels of organization and the strong ties to other software packages. When I'm on a Mac or iPad, I just use the web based version.
Both allow you to selectively sycnhronize data --when I'm in a class,
I convert the syllabus and notes into a OneNote notebook, and store
them on the cloud. When the class is over, I pull them back onto a local
drive, where I keep them (forever in theory), for future reference
(since they're in OneNote, I can search through them). I do this with the outline for classes I'm teaching,
projects I'm working on, and other things, as well. This keeps my cloud usage
minimal, while allowing me to keep private data private and taking
advantage of the cloud where it's useful.Hope that helps for anyone who's just starting to look at these sorts of packages, and sort out what using one would look like.
Russ
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Russ White said:
Maybe it's just me, but I think Logos either needs to make notes real, or get out of notes altogether. This "riding the fence" game has gone on long enough.
The Logos Notes function is what it is and, given what Logos has said, is unlikely to change. Bob has consistently said that he just doesn't want to put much time into this part of the software. Logos will support notes as they are, but they are not likely to add any functionality beyond what they already have (that's my opinion based on what I've read here; I don't have any inside information on this).
I use notes to make brief comments on a passage, and for that they function adequately.
I believe the suggestion for better linking to external notes programs has been made at Uservoice, though I'm unsure of its current status.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
I use notes to make brief comments on a passage, and for that they function adequately.
Richard, what do you use to make more extensive notes?
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Richard DeRuiter said:
The Logos Notes function is what it is and, given what Logos has said, is unlikely to change. Bob has consistently said that he just doesn't want to put much time into this part of the software.
Then I would suggest Logos openly say this, rather than beating around the bush. If you have to guess based on the tenor and tone of posts, then it's not clear, and it needs to be.
Beyond this, if Logos has decided to curtail future development on notes, then they need to replace that development with something that makes the software useful in it's interaction with other pieces of software. I don't think it would take much. For instance:
1. Allowing the cite type to be a url to the resource and location, rather than just the "normal" ones available today.
2. Allowing direct links from resources into outside software, rather than the convoluted process of creating a notes file, then copying a link to an external note into that note file (I.e., allowing the user to link directly to an outside note like they can an internal note today).
I can't think of much else that needs to be done to make support for an external notes software package really useable, and it would relieve Logos of the many problems they are going to face if they insist on not allowing users to choose where their notes are synchronized.
Russ
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Danny Baskin said:Richard DeRuiter said:
I use notes to make brief comments on a passage, and for that they function adequately.
Richard, what do you use to make more extensive notes?
If I need to write a short 'paper' on a passage, or do an in depth study of some kind, I'll do it in a word processor and store it in a subdirectory called "Study." This gives me much better control over formatting and navigation than notes has ever had. With a two monitor system, this isn't that difficult. And it's not any different from how I do sermons and Bible studies. If there's something I want to tie to a particular passage, I can make a note and say something like "See Documents\Study\[file.doc] for more discussion on this."
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
If I need to write a short 'paper' on a passage, or do an in depth study of some kind, I'll do it in a word processor and store it in a subdirectory called "Study." This gives me much better control over formatting and navigation than notes has ever had.
OneNote allows you to format notes with all the tools of Word itself --in fact, Word documents will translate directly to pages in a OneNote notebook and back. So with something like OneNote (or Evernote) you get the best of both worlds --it's in a searchable format that you can synch to the cloud or not, depending on the specific time and reason for making the note.
BTW, I wouldn't be so quick to differentiate between a "quick note," and "short paper." You're losing a lot of your information by disconnecting the two. This is why I dislike notes so much in their current form --they encourage breaking information up into multiple places, which leaves you looking in multiple places when you want to go back and rehash your previous studies.
So, again --if Logos is really leaving notes as just a quick text field, say so, and give us better connections to OneNote and Evernote.
Russ
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Russ White said:Richard DeRuiter said:
The Logos Notes function is what it is and, given what Logos has said, is unlikely to change. Bob has consistently said that he just doesn't want to put much time into this part of the software.
Then I would suggest Logos openly say this, rather than beating around the bush. If you have to guess based on the tenor and tone of posts, then it's not clear, and it needs to be.
NOTE: I said this as an opinion, based on what I've read in the last 2 or 3 years on these forums. My reading should not be construed to be exhaustive, nor my opinions representative of Logos' position. I don't expect any major changes in how notes function in the foreseeable future (YMMV).
However, I do agree, that if Logos is going to leave notes "as is," or even mostly "as is," it would be helpful to say that.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard and Russ,
You've both been helpful. Thanks!
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Russ White said:
Do you want to support notes, or not?
I use my email as a searchable master archive of my life. I've been on email my entire adult life, and I have essentially every email I've ever sent of received. I even email myself reminders, notes, and things I want to keep. I have documents that are stored as attachments which serve as my primary (or only) storage place for things I don't ever want to lose.
My email service provider keeps syncing my email to its server, so it can offer my email to me on my phone, my home and work computer, and guarantee access if one machine should die.
But I want to mark certain messages as "private" and not have them stored on the server.
Why won't they give email real email capabilities? Real email programs allow you to synchronize what you want where you want.
Or maybe my definition of email as "the searchable archive of my life" differs from the provider's definition as a server-managed communications mechanism.
I'm not wrong -- that's how I use email, and that's what it is to me. But I think it would be unfair to characterize the email provider as "not real email" because they designed something different, that I chose to use contrary to their published and well explained plans.
-- Start Tangent --
I can appreciate that you have different note taking needs, and even define a note differently than I do. That's fine. But I resent the implication that we've somehow not been "honest about it" -- we've set out our definition, plan, scope, and will do / won't do list for the notes feature repeatedly for many years. I remember doing it in the late 1990's for the LLS 2.0, in the early 2000's for the Libronix DLS, and again in 2009 when we released Logos 4, and many times since.
It's not a document store. It's not a place for attached files. It's not a place to write a paper, or organize a thesis, or to create a structured document. It's a place for notes on your Bible reading, to serve as the digital equivalent of writing in the margins of your paper Bible. This has been the definition of our notes feature since 1991.
And none of this is news.
And yet people keep "blaming us" when notes doesn't meet their need for something completely different.
The first user to be really upset about notes contacted us in 1992. He was upset about performance, and how notes were slowing down the system. We couldn't understand how this was possible, since we kept them in memory for high-speed access with no need to hit the disk. (Our notes then could only be attached to a verse, with only one note per verse, and only supported plain text.)
He sent us the note file.
He had attached a note to every verse in the Bible. Each note contained the full text of the verse in Chinese, resulting in a 3 megabyte note file in the days when computers had 1 meg of memory.
So was this poor performance design on our part? Or user error?
We disagree on what "real notes programs allow." To explain what I think a real notes program is, take a look at http://notescraps.com, which is a notes program I designed. Notice that it doesn't support any formatting, templates, tags, rich text, or embedded images. I use it every day to jot down things from voicemails, store frequent flyer account numbers, keep random bits of information, etc. No individual note is longer than a few hundred characters. Because to me, something longer than that is a "document" and I have much better tools for documents: Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc. (PowerPoint is my favorite outliner, for example. Easy to tab, shift-tab, re-order, etc.)
Now I'm aware that many people use and like Evernote, and consider it a "real notes" program. But I think Evernote is a heavy-weight app that gets in the way of my notes idea, which is one keystroke to take the note, and one keystroke to get into "find as you type" notes retrieval. I think Evernote is a document database. I hate that everything isn't in memory, that you have to hit enter after entering a query, and that there's the overhead of sorting, tagging, categorizing, etc.
And I think the fact that people do things like auto-copy every email they receive to Evernote makes my point: when you're copying your emails, or web surfing history, to Evernote, it's not a "notes" program, it's basically a database document store with full-text search engine.
Am I right? Probably not to you. I am to me. It's a semantic argument. "What is a note?"
I am willing to discuss changes to what we support, and even willing to implement features you want that I wouldn't particularly care for. I'm willing to believe that many people -- or even a majority of people -- define things differently than I do. But I'd like to stop making it a "you're doing it wrong" discussion, because that goes both ways. And I'd win, because I defined Logos notes in 1991, before you got a copy. :-)
-- End Tangent --
Please note (no pun intended!):
You can use the "Copy location as:" command on the resource panel menu (shortcut: Ctrl+Alt+C on Windows) to copy a URL to a resource location. You should be able to post this into OneNote, Evernote, Word, etc. as you wish. (I just tried with Word, and had to create a link -- just pasting it defaults to plain text.)
You're welcome to call me (800-875-6467) to make the case in person for selective syncing, but at the moment I just don't see the compelling need. If it's something you don't want synced, don't put it in Logos notes. Because (as explained before, in great detail -- I'll try to find the post) it's just too much code complexity for a very unusual situation which has a very, very easy workaround: store things you want synced in the syncing notes system, and things you want kept on your machine in tools that run on your machine.
-- Bob
PS Found it. I still believe it, and by now the "pro-cloud" feedback from users is even stronger: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/17936/134883.aspx#134883
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Bob,
I appreciate your ongoing interaction on the forums. You have a difficult job, but I personally think you are right in limiting the focus of what LOGOS attempts to accomplish. Most tools that try to do everything don't do anything well just as a restaurant that attempts to serve every kind of food will likely not be known as a great place to eat. I never expect to have a computer with just one program loaded on it.
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..
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Bob has consistently said that he just doesn't want to put much time into this part of the software. Logos will support notes as they are, but they are not likely to add any functionality
Bob has also consistently been incorrect on his restatement of what the problem is. People are not asking for a "word-processing" capability. They are asking for a note system that is actually a simpler, standard design with basic functionality:
- notes that can be attached to anything [Logos obviously has the keying capability to support this]
- notes that can be attached to multiple anythings (paired key file)
- notes that can contain anything [given some system restrictions this may require links to external graphics in L4] - tables for templates is the greatest challenge]
- notes that may contain preset content [we call these clippings]
- notes that expand and contract [note files do, clippings don't]
- notes that can be searched and indicate the actual note and matching text
- notes that can be sorted
- notes that have reasonable performance
- everything else is tweaks that rest upon a solid design
Logos does not need separate notes for the notes in guides, clippings and regular notes in files - they are all the same object differing only in what they attached to and what is preloaded. Far less expensive to write and maintain than the current system. Bob can't abandon notes e.g. he needs them to have highlighting across platforms. So Bob wants to think of notes as marginalia; I want to think of notes as 3x5 cards and classroom lecture notes.
If Bob does not want to provide notes, there is no reason for Logos to be anything but an eBook reader with a search. ... I don't need to pay Logos prices for that ... I pay because I expect Logos to be a research tool. Bob is a business man who has an interest in the Bible. He is not an academic, an author, a lesson provider, a preacher (or at least I don't think he is). In fact, he doesn't engage in all possible methods of personal Bible study. He's a good business who HAS to listen to his users to understand their needs. Bob may sometimes be obtuse but the business thrives because he does listen and change when he sees the needs. He'll change - he just doesn't know it yet.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Russ White said:
Your attitude towards users is essentially, "I like the way I do things, and I don't care, one whit, what you want."
Russ,
Unless you're saying you simply don't believe what Bob is saying, then I think you're not reading his posts very well.
In the post in this thread, Bob said:
>>>I am willing to discuss changes to what we support, and even willing to implement features you want that I wouldn't particularly care for. I'm willing to believe that many people -- or even a majority of people -- define things differently than I do.<<<
In the post that Bob linked to from this thread, Bob said:
>>>Are these problems solvable? Yes. Are they 20-30 lines of code with no implications for telephone support? I don't think so.
Will we do them, and suffer the hassle and inconvenience, if they are the top priority of a huge number of users?
Yes.<<<So he recognizes that his users might disagree with his thoughts on the topic and is willing to implement what the users want if he gets sufficient indication that it is in fact what they want.
For the record, I'd only like to see very minor changes to notes (mostly in the area of performance). I'd love integration with something like Evernote, but were I in Bob's shoes I'd achieve that by extending the product's API (COM-based) and let someone else run with whatever integrations scratched their itch.
Donnie
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Russ White said:
then they need to replace that development with something that makes the software useful in it's interaction with other pieces of software.
This is perhaps a reasonable solution for mind-maps etc. but it is not reasonable for text-based user generated content. It needs to be searchable with Logos. Otherwise, Logos should drop any pretense of being a research tool.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:
It's a place for notes on your Bible reading, to serve as the digital equivalent of writing in the margins of your paper Bible. This has been the definition of our notes feature since 1991.
Bob -
First let me admit I would NEVER write in a paper Bible and rarely write in books. My definition of notes is, however, not that different from yours. I see notes as:
- a markup of a page I have copied for the purpose of markup (highlights, marginalia)
- a sheet of paper on which I jot notes as I would for a lecture/required reading
- a 3x5 note card on which I jot notes & quotes for use later
Where we differ is in how we take notes. I learned to take notes first as a chemistry major who switched to philosophy when only 3 classes short of completing my major, as a philologically trained Buddhist studies graduate student and in a 30+ year career in IT. These disciplines led me to a note taking style that I find amusingly similar to what my grandson has learned in IT at Fairhaven:
- I make have use of templates (tables) to insure the completeness of observations or to compare/contrast two (or more) things
- I make heavy use of typological layout to convey meaning --> one couldn't pass historical linguistics without brackets, stacked phonological attributes, and arrows
- I make heavy use of arrows to indicate relationships between elements in a note
- I make heavy use of outlines, indentations (chiasm) and parallels (alignment)
- I make heavy use of notes to link one resource location to another (think chain Bibles)
- I use straight text to note questions that arise that need further research
- I use straight text for quotations, paraphrasing, consolidating my thought
I certainly have used long notes to substitute for other features in Logos when those features are absent, but I see no indication that the major of users wanting a more flexible note system want word processing capability. The notes you write in the margins can be any color, size or format. It a pen or pencil can do it, you can put it in the margins. If you look at high school and college web sites on note taking, you will find that my practice is typical of what is being taught ... in fact, my practice is less graphic oriented than some.
I don't want to write a lesson, a sermon or a dissertation in Logos. I want to be able to do the research, turn that research into meaningful "index cards", write a product in MSWord (with graphics from other software) and compile that product back into Logos. Seems reasonable to me.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Bob has also consistently been incorrect on his restatement of what the problem is. People are not asking for a "word-processing" capability. They are asking for a note system that is actually a simpler, standard design with basic functionality:
- notes that can be attached to anything [Logos obviously has the keying capability to support this]
- notes that can be attached to multiple anythings (paired key file)
- notes that can contain anything [given some system restrictions this may require links to external graphics in L4] - tables for templates is the greatest challenge]
- notes that may contain preset content [we call these clippings]
- notes that expand and contract [note files do, clippings don't]
- notes that can be searched and indicate the actual note and matching text
- notes that can be sorted
- notes that have reasonable performance
- everything else is tweaks that rest upon a solid design
Logos does not need separate notes for the notes in guides, clippings and regular notes in files - they are all the same object differing only in what they attached to and what is preloaded. Far less expensive to write and maintain than the current system. Bob can't abandon notes e.g. he needs them to have highlighting across platforms. So Bob wants to think of notes as marginalia; I want to think of notes as 3x5 cards and classroom lecture notes.If Bob does not want to provide notes, there is no reason for Logos to be anything but an eBook reader with a search. ... I don't need to pay Logos prices for that ... I pay because I expect Logos to be a research tool. Bob is a business man who has an interest in the Bible. He is not an academic, an author, a lesson provider, a preacher (or at least I don't think he is). In fact, he doesn't engage in all possible methods of personal Bible study. He's a good business who HAS to listen to his users to understand their needs. Bob may sometimes be obtuse but the business thrives because he does listen and change when he sees the needs. He'll change - he just doesn't know it yet.
[Y]
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Nord Zootman said:
Bob,
I appreciate your ongoing interaction on the forums. You have a difficult job, but I personally think you are right in limiting the focus of what LOGOS attempts to accomplish. Most tools that try to do everything don't do anything well just as a restaurant that attempts to serve every kind of food will likely not be known as a great place to eat. I never expect to have a computer with just one program loaded on it.
Peace to you, Nord! *smile* and Always Joy in the Lord!
Your post is extremely well-spoken indeed!
Bob, Nord expresses my views very much. I have OneNote -- use it constantly -- it (and Microsoft Word!) more than "do the job" for me.
However, MJ certainly makes a few good points, eh? *smile* Searchable with Logos? How desirable that would be, even though OneNote and Windows 7 have tremendous searching features. I don't envy you, Bob, in the decisions you have to make.
Russ White:then they need to replace that development with something that makes the software useful in it's interaction with other pieces of software.This is perhaps a reasonable solution for mind-maps etc. but it is not reasonable for text-based user generated content. It needs to be searchable with Logos. Otherwise, Logos should drop any pretense of being a research tool.
Proverbs 22:1
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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FYI... a lot has changed in the last 20+ years.Bob Pritchett said:It's not a document store. It's not a place for attached files. It's not a place to write a paper, or organize a thesis, or to create a structured document. It's a place for notes on your Bible reading, to serve as the digital equivalent of writing in the margins of your paper Bible. This has been the definition of our notes feature since 1991.
Bob, you try to look at what is going to be happening in the future. I am surprised that you are holding onto a concept that is over 20 years old.
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Russ White said:
I hate to put it this way, but you are probably the most compelling reason not to buy or own Logos software.
Russ, I have never spoken to Bob in person or by phone, however, I do think you're being a bit unfair to him. Bob is a business man - that's is job. As a business man he has some knowledge of IT and some knowledge of Bible studies. But he is not an expert in either. That is why he is dependent upon Logos users to be honest with him regarding what works for them and what doesn't in Logos. We need to be patient as we are asking him to see a particular perspective that is outside his area of expertise. Yes, I've been "fighting" with Bob over notes for nearly as long as L4 has been available. Bob's view that notes should be notes is reasonable. What we need to help Bob understand is the many ways in which people take notes ... and that for its long term success Logos needs to move the same direction that prescribed note taking programs are going. Computers are pushing every topic and every person to be more visually oriented (just look at the Holman Bible Handbook). Reaming him out isn't helpful - persistence is.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The Redlands note format is in a pdf http://www.redlands.edu/docs/StudentLife/1Five_Methods_of_Notetaking.docx_UPDATED_7-09.pdf - and more typical than Miskingum College.
Miskingum College on the format of notes:
Forms of Organization
There are a
number of ways information may be organized in notes. The form of
organization used will depend, in part, on personal preferences, student
learning styles, the manner of presentation of the material, and the
subject matter. A student need not use the same form of organization for
all notetaking tasks. Therefore, it may be helpful to become familiar
with several organizational styles.Most of the strategies outlined here are intended for student use, but FORM is for instructors.
- Cornell Method
- Two-Column Method
- REAP Strategy
- Outline Format
- FORM Strategy
- Topic and Concept Cards
- Alternate Formats
Cornell Method
With the
Cornell method, different parts of the notebook paper have different
functions. Notes are recorded on one half, key words and concepts are
recorded in another area called the recall column, and a summary is
recorded at the bottom of the paper.The Cornell method is similar to the two-column method and the REAP strategy. More information related to the Cornell method is included in the Reviewing Notes section of this page.
The Cornell
method of notetaking offers several advantages. It results in more
organized notes. It allows students to quickly and identify key words
and key concepts from a lecture. The notes can easily be used as a study guide
for exam preparation. The arrangement of information is aesthetically
pleasing and easy to scan, making it easy to locate particular pieces of
information. The strategy may be adapted to a number of presentation
formats.Directions for using the Cornell method are as follows.
- Divide the paper
- Use loose leaf notebook paper and write on one side of the page only.
- Divide the paper vertically by drawing a line from top to bottom about 2" from the left side of the page.
- Documentation
Write the following information at the top of each page: student name, course, date, and page number.
During lecture, record the main ideas and concepts on the right side of the page. This is the notes column.
Rephrase the information in your own words before writing it down.
Skip one line between ideas and several lines between topics.
Avoid writing in complete sentences; use symbols and abbreviations instead.
The format or style of the notes can vary, but avoid using a formal outline. Suggestions for organizing the notes are:
Paragraph Style: For unstructured information, record notes in paragraph style with short, telegraphic sentences and phrases.
Topic and Ideas Style: For expanded topic information, record topics and ideas.
Sentence Style: For ideas and concepts, record notes in short sentences.
Definition Style: For main topics and features, record definitions and explanations of words in short phrases.
Review and Clarify
As soon after class as possible, review the notes in the right column and clarify any ambiguous information.
Compare the information with the book and/or other students' notes.
Then
pull the main ideas, concepts, terms, places, dates, and people from
the right column and record them in the left-hand recall column.
Summarize
Prepare a summary of the lecture material and record it at the end of the notes.
The summary may be in sentences or short phrases. It should include only the main ideas from the lecture.
Study
Use both sections of the notes to prepare for quizzes and exams.
Some reviewing strategies that are suited to the Cornell format are NoteSHRINK, NoteTALK, and NoteTHINK.
An example of the Cornell method of notetaking is provided below.
Two-Column Method
The
two-column method of notetaking involves dividing the paper into two
columns and recording different types of information in each column. It
is similar to the Cornell method.
The main differences between the two methods are that, with the
two-column method, key words and ideas are recorded while taking notes
and are not repeated in both columns.
Name
Date
Key
Words
Descriptions
Like the
Cornell method, the two-column method allows for easy scanning of notes
to locate certain pieces of information. Notes taken using the
two-column method may be used as study guides for exam or quiz preparation.
Directions for using the two-column format are as follows:
Divide Paper
Use loose leaf notebook paper and write on one side of the page only.
Divide the paper vertically into two columns by drawing lines from top to bottom.
Documentation
Write the following information at the top of each page: student name, course, date, and page number.
Record Key Words or Ideas
Record all key words, ideas, people, or events in the left-hand column.
Information in this column must be very brief.
Record Descriptions or Discussions
For each key word or idea, record the corresponding description or explanation next to it in the right-hand column.
Review and Clarify
As soon after class as possible, review the notes in the right column and clarify any ambiguous information.
Compare the information with the book and/or other students' notes.
Study
Use both columns of the notes to prepare for quizzes and exams.
Modify
Add extra columns if necessary, depending on the material.
For example, you may want to add an extra column for recording relevant information from the textbook at a later date.
Two examples of the two-column method of notetaking are provided below.
REAP Strategy
REAP stands
for Relating, Extending, Actualizing, and Profiting (Devine, 1987). The
purposes of the strategy are to organize notes and to make course
content more personal to students. Class notes are taken on one side of
the paper and the opposite page is used for recording memory triggers
and related information.
REAP is similar to the Cornell method of notetaking and is related to the NoteTHINK strategy of reviewing notes. There is also related information in the Motivation strategies page under Creating Interest and Relevance - Make Learning Meaningful.
Directions for the REAP strategy are as follows:
Divide Paper
Use a spiral notebook or a three-ring binder with loose-leaf paper.
Divide
the left-hand page into two columns by drawing a vertical line from top
to bottom. Label the left column "Triggers" and the right column "REAP."
Leave the right-hand page as is. Include the student name, course, date, and page number at the top of the right-hand page.
Record Notes
Takes notes only on the right-hand pages.
Use short sentences and skip lines between major ideas.
Record Triggers
The
trigger column is used to record words, phrases, or visual images that
will trigger the corresponding main idea in the notes section.
Refer to the Memory page for strategies that help to trigger memory.
Fill in this section immediately or shortly after class.
Record REAP Words
The REAP column should also be filled in immediately or shortly after class.
In the REAP column, the student writes words or phrases that...
Relate the material to his/her own life
Extend the material outward into the outside world
Actualize the material; note how information might work in the world
Profit from the ideas - consider how the student and society might profit from the ideas
An example of the REAP strategy of notetaking is provided below.
Outline Format
The
outlining strategy involves organizing information so that inclusive
material is followed by more exclusive but related pieces of
information. In other words, the information is arranged from general to
specific. The format may be used while recording notes, or it may be
employed when recopying and reorganizing notes.
Outlining is
a fairly versatile format for organizing notes because it can be
modified to accommodate personal needs and preferences. For example,
outlines can be formal or informal (e.g. with or without Roman numerals)
and symbols for distinguishing inclusive and exclusive material can be
varied. Notes in outline form help the student to detect and understand
relationships and associations among different pieces of information.
Notes in outline form can also be modified easily into study guides for exam preparation.
Directions for taking or transcribing notes into outline form are as follows:
Develop a Template
Part of the outlining task can be completed before class.
Do the required reading to be covered in class, and develop a "skeleton" outline or template based on the reading.
Use the major headings in the chapter to form the major sections of the outline.
The details are filled in during lecture.
Arrangement of Information
Each major section of the outline should cover one major topic.
Arrange
the information within the section from most inclusive to most
exclusive, indenting the information each time the level of
inclusiveness changes.
All of the levels may or may not be used.
Symbols
The most common symbols used in outlining are Roman numerals, upper and lower case letters, and numbers.
Other symbols like circles and squares may be added or substituted for these according to personal preference.
Record Notes
Short phrases, symbols, shorthand, and abbreviations may be used to record notes in the outline.
Drawings or figures may be incorporated to the right of the notes or between lines
A sample outline is given below.
I. MOST INCLUSIVE INFORMATION ON A TOPIC (GENERAL)
A. More Inclusive
1. Least Inclusive
a. least exclusive
(1) more exclusive
(2) more exclusive
(a) most exclusive (specific)
2. Least Inclusive
B. More Inclusive
1. Least Inclusive
II. MOST INCLUSIVE INFORMATION ON ANOTHER TOPIC (GENERAL)
A. More Inclusive
1. Least Inclusive
a. least exclusive
(1) more exclusive
(a) most exclusive (specific)
(2) more exclusive
An example of a formal outline is provided below.
Marge Feser - Intro to Prehistory
10/25/95 - Page 2
ORIGINS OF AGRICULTURE
I. AGRICULTURE COMPARED TO HUNTING-GATHERING
A. Advantages of Agriculture
1. More efficient use of land
a. agric: 1 sq km supports 50 people
b. h-g: 25-30 sq km supports 5-6 people
2. More Stable food source thru year (w/ storage)
3. More free time in non-critical seasons
B. Disadvantages of Agriculture
1. Malnourishment
a. farmers often deficient in protein
2. Labor intensive in critical seasons
3. High risk if crops/herds fail
II. IDENTIFYING DOMESTICATES IN ARCH'L RECORD
A. Plants
1. Seeds are bigger in size
2. Seed coats are thicker
B. Animals
1. Size changes
2. Finer or thicker fur
3. Different horn shape
The following is an example of an informal outline.
Marge Feser - Intro to Prehistory
10/25/95 - Page 2
ORIGINS OF AGRICULTURE
I. AGRICULTURE COMPARED TO HUNTING-GATHERING
Advantages of AgricultureMore efficient use of land
agric: 1 sq km supports 50 people
h-g: 25-30 sq km supports 5-6 people
More Stable food source thru year (w/ storage)
More free time in non-critical seasons
Disadvantages of Agriculture
Malnourishment
farmers often deficient in protein
Labor intensive in critical seasons
High risk if crops/herds fail
II. IDENTIFYING DOMESTICATES IN ARCH'L RECORD
Plants
Seeds are bigger in size
Seed coats are thicker
Animals
Size changes
Finer or thicker fur
Different horn shape
FORM Strategy
The FORM
strategy is an advanced organizer instructional routine teachers use at
the beginning of class (REFERENCE). It aids in organizing content-area
instruction. The goals are to provide students with the main idea of the
lecture and to preview how information will be presented. The strategy
helps students to follow lectures and pick out the most important
information to be recorded in notes.
FORM the big picture of the lesson...
Focus of Lesson
What will the lesson be about?
What are the key points that will be addressed?
What questions do students hope will be answered?
Organization of Lesson
How will the key points be presented?
What learning enhancers will be used to make it easier?
What is the sequence of activities you will be using during this lesson?
Relationship
Relationship to the past: What have students learned in the past that will make learning this easier?
Relationship to the future: If students master the material, then how will they benefit?
Most Important to Learn
If students don't learn anything else from the lesson but this one thing, what would it be?
Topic and Concept Cards
Topic and
concept cards provide alternatives to loose leaf paper for recording
notes. Notes are taken or recopied on 3 x 5 or 5 x 7 lined index cards.
The topic or concept is written on one side of the card, and the
explanation or description is written on the other side. Usually, only
one topic or concept is written on each card.
Compared to
loose leaf paper notes, topic and index cards offer the advantage of
being highly manipulable. The cards may be arranged and rearranged into
stacks of related items. Like the Cornell and two-column methods, cards
can be used for exam preparation and self-testing. However, the card
strategy for notetaking lends itself only to certain types of
information, especially topical lectures. It also may require more paper
supplies.
Concept cards are covered in more detail in the Memory page.
A generic topic card and a completed example are shown below.
TOPIC
Front
Main Idea
Supporting Details
Back
AGRICULTURAL
REVOLUTION
Front
Farming has many advantages over hunting and gathering:
1. stable food source
2. less undernourishment
3. efficient use of land
Back
A generic concept card and a completed example are illustrated below.
CONCEPT
Front
Description
Back
LOGOS
Front
Persuasive arguments that appeal to the audience's sense of logic and rationality (Aristotle).
Back
Alternate Formats
Alternate
notetaking formats use less conventional methods of organizing
information. Notes may be recopied and reorganized into concept maps,
spider maps, flow charts, and other formats. Examples of spider maps are
given below. For complete descriptions and illustrations of these
formats, refer to the Information Organization section of the Organization page.
Example 1
Example 2
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:
It's not a document store. It's not a place
for attached files. It's not a place to write a paper, or organize a
thesis, or to create a structured document. It's a place for notes on
your Bible reading, to serve as the digital equivalent of writing in the
margins of your paper Bible. This has been the definition of our notes feature since 1991.Bob this is not news to me but I've been using your software since the later stages of the life cycle of Logos 2.1. It may be news for those who have started using Logos 4.
MJ. Smith said:Richard DeRuiter said:Bob has consistently said that he just doesn't want to put much time into this part of the software. Logos will support notes as they are, but they are not likely to add any functionality
Bob has also consistently been incorrect on his restatement of what the problem is. People are not asking for a "word-processing" capability.
I am hoping that Bob has got got that people (well MJ and I at least) are not asking for a word processor. I also don't want a document storage database either. Bob, your concept of notes is what you have delivered and it is in essence what I want. That however doesn't mean it can't be tweaked and what MJ has said is a good summary.
MJ. Smith said:They are asking for a note system that is actually a simpler, standard design with basic functionality:
- notes that can be attached to anything [Logos obviously has the keying capability to support this]
- notes that can be attached to multiple anythings (paired key file)
- notes that can contain anything [given some system restrictions this may require links to external graphics in L4] - tables for templates is the greatest challenge]
- notes that may contain preset content [we call these clippings]
- notes that expand and contract [note files do, clippings don't]
- notes that can be searched and indicate the actual note and matching text
- notes that can be sorted
- notes that have reasonable performance
- everything else is tweaks that rest upon a solid design
Logos does not need separate notes for the notes in guides, clippings and regular notes in files - they are all the same object differing only in what they attached to and what is preloaded. Far less expensive to write and maintain than the current system.
Now I agree some of this things, such as 'templates' may go beyond your definition of notes, but in the last beta of Libronix 3 there was in fact study templates which you said would be introduced in Logos 4, (but have not as yet), so template is not totally foreign to what you have indicated in the past would be available in the future.
MJ. Smith said:Bob may sometimes be obtuse but the business thrives because he does listen and change when he sees the needs. He'll change - he just doesn't know it yet.
Bob I understand your frustration that has come through in your post - we are all human and feel that way at times. But I do know underneath it you do listen to your customers, just sometimes not as quick as we want - but then our view is not fully informed of what it takes to give us what we want.
There a things I have on the 'table' I would like to see addressed, other things I think should be done differently but right now want to say thank you for your personal efforts in 2011.
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Russ White said:
No, I won't bother calling you. If this is the reception I receive on a public forum, why should I expect anything but a thorough chewing out if I do call you?
Russ
Russ, grow a pair, or get your own software company. Last time I checked, Logos wasn't a democracy.
I gotta quit reading these forum whiners. It's like listening to talk radio all day.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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MJ. Smith said:
- notes that can be attached to anything [Logos obviously has the keying capability to support this]
- notes that can be attached to multiple anythings (paired key file)
- notes that can contain anything [given some system restrictions this may require links to external graphics in L4] - tables for templates is the greatest challenge]
- notes that may contain preset content [we call these clippings]
- notes that expand and contract [note files do, clippings don't]
- notes that can be searched and indicate the actual note and matching text
- notes that can be sorted
- notes that have reasonable performance
- everything else is tweaks that rest upon a solid design
You go, MJ. I am with you on this and the way you take notes. However, at this point, I would be happy if the text on the screen could keep up with my two-finger typing (using L4Mac).
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MJ. Smith said:
If Bob does not want to provide notes, there is no reason for Logos to be anything but an eBook reader with a search. ... I don't need to pay Logos prices for that ... I pay because I expect Logos to be a research tool.
Here's where I understand the difference between how you want/expect to use Logos and how I want/expect to use Logos. I've used Logos for a long time as a research tool, but haven't considered the tool be the place where I track or store my research. You have the expectation that the research tool include research tracking and storage.
These aren't a conflict between a 'real' research tool and a wannabe. It's a conflict between what expectations we have for what the tool in front of us ought to be.
(BTW, I used WordSearch, when it was an eReader with a search. A
paper-concordance was literally a faster way to find what I was looking
for. But that was the 80's. Logos4 is much, much more than that.)MJ. Smith said:So Bob wants to think of notes as marginalia; I want to think of notes as 3x5 cards and classroom lecture notes.
Here's another indication of a difference in concept for what notes ought to be. I think of the clippings function as 3X5 cards (except clumsier - I've given up on them), and I would never think of using Logos notes as lecture notes. I'd do that in a word processor (well, that's what I do with sermons & Bible studies). But then I've never used 3X5 cards to do research unless the prof required me to.
I think of Logos, as it currently functions, as a fully functional research environment. And I think of bringing my own note-taking function into this research environment to record the fruit of my work. But you (and some others here) want the research environment to have its own, built-in note-taking function to record and store the fruit of your research. Maybe we should stop being surprised at each others' expectations and just see them for what they are: different expectations of what a research environment is. (I'll admit to being surprised at the intensity of this discussion. I'll try to suspend my 'surprise' for now.)
These differing expectations suggests an opportunity for Logos to do some research of its own. What does the academic community, and the academically inclined (and the rest of its user-base) require for a fully functional research tool? Do they really require that the fruit of their research be stored within the research tool itself, or integrate with other research tools (such as mind-maps, Evernote, etc.), or do the vast majority of academic researchers store the fruit of their work in word processing-type files? This thread, and the high priority of this item on Uservoice, suggests that such a study is probably justified. (It's easy for me to say that, since I wouldn't be paying for the study.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
I would never think of using Logos notes as lecture notes.
I was thinking of taking notes during a lecture. But in high-school debate we created hundreds of cards from which we selected our notes for our presentations and rebuttals. Much of the skill of the top debaters was in their organization and tagging of their notes ... which allowed them to find the right pieces at the right time and sort them into an order for oral argument.
Richard DeRuiter said:But then I've never used 3X5 cards to do research unless the prof required me to.
I had professors whose whole research life was contained in their card files. In fact my Dad had all his cattle breeding strategies and tracking on 5 by 8 cards. I never had a prof require them. I used scraps of papers marking the pages in books for subjects I didn't care about ... cards with side hole punches of sorting for information I expected to need again. Logos notes I expect to need again unless they are a reminder to look something up.
Richard DeRuiter said:But you (and some others here) want the research environment to have its own, built-in note-taking function to record and store the fruit of your research.
Most of my "research" consists of snippets of information to include in handouts of notes for Bible study (or liturgy planning) or of potential questions (and answers) for Bible studies. I don't do research as such - I collect snippets that I will want when I am ready to do a lesson on a particular set of passages. I was not using Logos (although I owned it) when I was preaching regularly. If I had been, I'd still be saving interesting tidbits when I ran into them and gathering an appropriate selection when I went to preach, teach a class, prepare someone else to teach etc.
What I want is not an academic research tool in the sense I think you're envisioning. I simply want Logos to keep me from having to do the same basic data collection over and over and over and over ... after all isn't it the job of the computer to take care of dull repetitive tasks like searching through 3x5 notes?
Bible study to me is intertextual (partially a mufti-text homily thing) and cyclic - what I learned the first time through is additional information for the next time through i.e. my notes from cycle 1 is part of the resources of cycle 2; my notes from cycle 1 & 2 are input to cycle 3 ...To me this is so basic it applies to computer programming, storytelling, poetry writing, liturgy planning ....its basic educational theory (think how one organizes Sunday school), basic lectionary-based worship and preaching, ,,,, why wouldn't it apply to Logos?
Richard DeRuiter said:or do the vast majority of academic researchers store the fruit of their work in word processing-type files?
I've never known one to use word processing files. From Houdini (I loved the DOS Houdini) on, I've only seen some form of hypertext, note management or knowledge base solutions.
Richard DeRuiter said:or integrate with other research tools (such as mind-maps,
I agree that Logos does not need to support mind-maps and a number of text analysis tools. However, mind-maps are something that most elementary school children know ... and they can be essential to a good Sunday School program. They are also heavily used as collaboration tools in business. So I do think Logos needs to keep its eye on the developments in this area so that they don't fall too far behind the demand. Resources like the High Definition Commentary show that Logos is aware of this as a potential market. I know I keep pushing argument mapping and such ... often to tweak people for horrendous logic. I think they are tools that should be at our fingertips ... but I don't expect Logos to provide them.
On the other hand, Logos has committed to root/stem searches which is a huge leap for the academics. And I do think Logos should deliberately plan on meeting academics needs as they are the ones to determine what a seminary requires. My undergraduate college now rents textbooks for student to use in their dorm room - the dead tree format and sells the eBook version to take into the classroom and library. They find their students want both. Logos should position themselves for this taking hold in seminaries. Note it was the students not the administration that determine they wanted both.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
However, mind-maps are something that most elementary school children know ...
?
Not where I went to school. I first heard about them on the old newsgroups. Still don't know what they really are and how they work (after trying out a couple of mind-map programs).
But I was talking about linking from Logos to an external program.
MJ. Smith said:What I want is not an academic research tool in the sense I think you're envisioning. I simply want Logos to keep me from having to do the same basic data collection over and over and over and over ... after all isn't it the job of the computer to take care of dull repetitive tasks like searching through 3x5 notes?
What you seem to want is Logos to be the tool that keeps and tracks your studies (research, or whatever you call it). I don't object to that idea. But I never thought it was Logos' job, nor should it be. That's what interests me: the differences in expectations about how Logos should function. If I do the same research over and over, it's my problem. I don't have a good way of tracking my research. You want this to be integrated into Logos. That's one way. It might be better than what I'm doing. I just never thought of Logos as the way of doing that. Another fascinating difference in the way we think about Logos.needs to be filled, so I can store better and more complete results in my "Study" sub-directory.
It's late, I should go to bed.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
What you seem to want is Logos to be the tool that keeps and tracks your studies (research, or whatever you call it). I don't object to that idea. But I never thought it was Logos' job, nor should it be. That's what interests me: the differences in expectations about how Logos should function. If I do the same research over and over, it's my problem. I don't have a good way of tracking my research.
If we had the ability to tag individual notes, like we do with clippings then that would go a long way to helping us all track our 'research' a lot better. Ultimately it is up to us on the tagging system we use to track our work.
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MJ. Smith said:
The Redlands note format is in a pdf http://www.redlands.edu/docs/StudentLife/1Five_Methods_of_Notetaking.docx_UPDATED_7-09.pdf - and more typical than Miskingum College.
Miskingum College on the format of notes:
Thanks MJ...added these to Evernote. [8-|]
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Not where I went to school.
Hate to break it to you Richard ... at our age its much more WHEN than where.[:(] Inspiration began producing mind mapping software for elementary education in 1982. I doubt that they were the first. The article below gives an indication of their use - not that I think you are really all THAT interested but others might be.
Mind Maps in Education - Where it all Started...
The story of Tony Buzan, as told in the Mind Map History article, going into the library asking for a manual on using the brain, is legendary. He was directed to the medical section!We have come a long way since then. A lot of the Mind Map's progress can be related to the success of Mind Maps in Education. Even though Mind Maps in Education have so much proven success, it is still only applied half-heartedly in mainstream education worldwide. Old habits die hard! There are so many published case studies, and our own experiences, that have convinced us that Mind Maps in Education and Learning have no equal.
Let's explore some of the ways Mind Maps can be used in Education and Learning.Mind Map study methods
Tony Buzan developed the Mind Map Organic Study Technique
(MMOST), which uses Mind Maps as the core component. The method allows
you to go from the big picture to the details in a structured, creative
way. It consists of two main sections, preparation and application.
Preparation is divided into:- Browse
- Time and Amount
- Knowledge Mind Map
- Questions and Goals
Application is divided into:
- Overview
- Preview
- Inview
- Review
By
adopting Mind Maps in your learning process, you will begin to involve
your whole brain in your learning. Whether you use the Mind Map Organic
Study Technique, or just supplement your learning with Mind Maps, you
will see a vast improvement in your approach to learning.Mind Maps allow you to introduce colour, variety and fun into your studies. With this, success is sure to follow!
Mind Maps and Memory
You can create Mind Map Memory Maps for the brain and trigger your perfect memory.
Association and hierarchy are
two key components in memory. Mind Maps naturally apply both of these
principles. All ideas are linked via defined paths in a Mind Map. The associations between ideas are therefore clearly defined.
Maps also naturally go from the most important, central topic, to more
and more detailed topics, using thinker lines in the beginning and
thinner ones for the detail. This creates a natural hierarchy.By having both these components in your Mind Map notes, you create a perfect memory map for your brain. All you need to introduce is colour and pictures and you have the perfect memory tool.
Mind Maps and Reading
Key Words form part of the main Mind Mapping principles. By using Key Words in your Mind Maps, you can reduce your notes by up to 90 percent, yet increase your memory by more than 100 percent. This enables you to not only save paper, but read through your notes in a fraction of the time it would take to go through normal linear notes on the same topic. It takes speed reading to a new level.
When
people think of speed reading, they naturally think of people reading
3000, 5000 and even 10000 or more words per minute. While this is true,
they are the real speed readers, you can can go through the same material in as little time, if you have the material mind mapped.Using Mind Maps also gets you used to reading Key Words and Key Phrases,
which speeds up your reading. By learning to use Key Words and Key
phrases, you will take your ability to read and learn faster to levels
you never dreamed were possible.Mind Maps and Writing
Whether
you are writing a novel, a technical manual or study notes for personal
use, Mind Maps will take your writing to the next level. As Barry Buzan
stated in a Mind Map history, Mind Maps allow you to separate the thinking and the writing process.We classify writing into two classes: Note Taking, which takes down other peoples ideas, and Note Making, which you use to record your own ideas.
In
both Note Taking and Note Making, Mind Maps allow you to combine both
other peoples ideas and your own on the same Mind Map, in a way that
complements each other.How to Mind Map a Text Book gives you a good overview of Note Taking and Using Mind Maps in Education.
Mind Maps for Organising your Thoughts
While a Mind Map may look messy for some, it is actually a very structured way of note taking and note making. While it is very structured, it is also very creative.
Structure and creativity are often looked at as to opposing and
contradicting forces. With Mind Maps, these two powerful forces work together in a synergy that is hard to reproduce in any other way.People with a structured approach are often labelled left-brained and the creative ones are often labelled right-brained.
These terms were coined based on the parts of the brain that are
associated with structured and creative thought, respectively. With Mind
Mind Maps you combine both and become whole-brained.You will learn via the various articles and resources on this site how to engage your whole brain in any activity that you do. By doing so, you will live a healthier, creative and stimulating life.
Mind Maps in the Classroom
More
and more teachers are beginning to use Mind Maps in the classroom. We
have our own extensive experience in using Mind Maps in the classroom.A Mind Map is the ideal teaching aid, as it can naturally take the learner from the known to the unknown, which is a fundamental principle of learning.
The teacher starts with the main concept or principle in the middle and gradually drills into the details at
a pace that can be followed by the class. The same Mind Map notes can
then be used by faster and slower pupils, as the pace is dictated by the
class, not the teacher. The learner is at the centre of the learning process all the time.If
used correctly, fast readers and slow readers can normally follow at
the same pace. If images are used throughout the Mind Map, the method
works even better.Mind Maps and thinking
Edward de Bono, the guy that invented lateral thinking, states in his book, 'The six thinking hats', that complexity is the enemy of thinking as it leads to confusion.
Mind Maps allow you to clarify your thoughts by categorising them and grouping them into related ideas. This allows remarkable clarity when thinking. If you use Mind Map Software, you are able to do quick Mind Map brainstorms and then easily reorganise your thoughts in a structured way. This will naturally lead to clearer and better thinking without losing the creativity.
Mind Maps and Analysis
To analyse a complex problem, you have to look at it from different angles. A Mind Map allows you to put down the different angles on a single page, record your thinking in each of the angles, and then compare and analyse them in a structured way, without losing the 'thinking out of the box' benefits.
By focusing on one branch at a time,
you can explore the idea fully without letting the others getting in
the way. Yet, if you need access to the other ideas, they are right
there. With Mind Mapping software you can easily hide the other ideas while you are focusing on one. The others are just a click away!We hope this gives you a good general overview of using Mind Maps in Education.
There are many articles on this site that explore each of these topics
in more detail. We hope that this site continues to add value to your
life and guides you to better ways of using Mind Maps.Remember, you can add comments at any time to not only share your experiences, but get help in using Mind Maps better.
Click here to learn about our unique Learning Management Program...Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Andrew McKenzie said:
If we had the ability to tag individual notes, like we do with clippings then that would go a long way to helping us all track our 'research' a lot better.
Absolutely. That is part of the reason I think notes and clippings are simply special uses of a single object. I've never figured out how Logos came to the implementation they gave us. Cost them lots of extra coding and testing.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Russ White said:
Logos, it's time to decide.
Do you want to support notes, or not?
The answer has already been given but it is not the way you want it to be.
Russ White said:If not, then be honest about it, and spend your time making your software work better with other packages, rather than playing the notes game at all. If you do, then do it right.
Working better with other packages is not a realistic alternative, any more than the current notes design is suitable to everybody.
Personally, I think it is a bad design being "file" based and with distinctions of Notes by reference and Notes by Selection, and now (in 4.5) we have this dualism of Notes and Highlighting because of a "demand" to have see them on one's portable device i.e. sync'ing of highlighting was piggy-backed to an ancient design of Notes and the functionality of both has suffered as a consequence. If you like it all stems from Logos' antipathy to Notes from way back.
I have to respect the way that others want to work but I believe there are ways to document the research information that Logos software provides without the demands currently being placed on Notes and Sermon Files. I'm not excusing Logos' lack of commitment to what was missing from Libronix but the current furore over what they should provide demonstrates a lack of flexibility to what is provided and does not acknowledge the defects inherent in the current (simple) Notes design i.e I wouldn't trust it for extensive notes.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I'd like to add my voice in, in desiring greater functionality in the notes. I've only been a logos user for 9 months and one of the things that attracted me to it (given that many of the old books are available online - and with improved Google functionality in the future, google may one day be reasonably searchable like logos), was the fact that I could attach my notes and comments to anything I read quite liberally - so when I come back to a book, I remember what I thought (I often I would put a 1/2 page summary at the start of a book to remind me what I thought or what was useful). So practically, MJ Smith's suggestions look great - though for me, the basics I'd like to see logos do are:
- being able to split notes a/c to some search criteria (e.g. my Bible notes file has 135 pages thus far. As I just write black text, I figure this shouldn't be too memory intensive. So as this is getting longer, I'd like logos to be able to split files, so I could split my comments per book)
- be able to add notes files to a collection - would be good to search a selection of my notes for something I know I wrote briefly about when reading a book.
- be able to type whilst listening at the same speed as if listening to a lecture.
Personally I would favour these features not depending on another note taking package (another package will necessarily exclude some users [though I realise pbs already do so in depending on Word for some]). Whilst I realise logos doesn't particularly want to put effort into this facility (and whatever effort they do put in, people will always demand more), I would happily pay $50-100 to get this extra functionality alone.
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Bob Pritchett said:
It's not a document store. It's not a place for attached files. It's not a place to write a paper, or organize a thesis, or to create a structured document. It's a place for notes on your Bible reading, to serve as the digital equivalent of writing in the margins of your paper Bible. This has been the definition of our notes feature since 1991.
Bob
Taking on board these comments about what Logos notes are not there is something that Logos most definitely is that makes doing all of these things highly desirable to many of those who use your program.
Logos is Bible centric and so as a consequence Logos Notes are Bible centric.
Also Logos Notes might not be a document store BUT Logos itself is and a very good one as well!
What Logos gives me "out of the box" that NO OTHER tool I use delivers is the ability to structure my Notes in Bible text order. I love Word but how do I store my data in Word in the correct sequence without resorting to a complex naming conventions for folders and files. The same is true for Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote believe me I would love to create a OneNote Folder, select the Sort by Canon Option, and enter lots of Notes.
In my analysis, at the root of everything that is being asked for is this simple fact, the Notes that you allow us to enter link to the Bible text in a way that no other non Bible based tool allows and this makes your Noting System more valuable than any other we have available.
Considering this, is there the possibility of a hybrid approach that retains the basic Note feature that you have outlined but uses the functionality of the users full function Word Processor for "advanced" notes? Logos would need to manage the Word Processor Documents which could be stored for future changes and compiled into a PBB. I appreciate that this may be too complex or unwieldy to be viable but I do believe that we would all benefit from creating some alternative ideas.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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MJ. Smith said:
Hate to break it to you Richard ... at our age its much more WHEN than where.
Inspiration began producing mind mapping software for elementary education in 1982. I doubt that they were the first. The article below gives an indication of their use - not that I think you are really all THAT interested but others might be.Okay. I'm sort of interested. But as far as Logos is concerned, they're not likely to develop a mind-mapping tool within Logos. What I was suggesting was that the different ways people want to work with Logos suggests a need to connect to an external program for such tasks. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned mind-mapping, since it seems to have gotten off on a tangent. Russ White suggested integration with OneNote and Evernote. Maybe I should have left it with that.
But one statement in the article does seem interesting to our discussion on notes:
MJ. Smith said:We classify writing into two classes: Note Taking, which takes down other peoples ideas, and Note Making, which you use to record your own ideas.
It seems to me that the design of the current notes design follows the "Note Making" concept, while clippings follow the "Note Taking" concept. Maybe I'm over generalizing, and, while I normally use notes for "note making," I've used notes for "note taking" too. While I'm a bit resistant to forcing general concepts into technical terms that aren't really technical (I tend to use the phrase "taking notes" for both functions), the distinction seems helpful, or at least interesting.
Do you think that distinction helps this discussion, or is it another tangent that confuses the central issue you want to deal with regarding notes?
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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View from the bleachers as I am not as invested in the "Notes controversy" as some...
Bob Pritchett said:I can appreciate that you have different note taking needs, and even define a note differently than I do. That's fine.
Isn't this an instance of users offering feedback as to features they want? Why in this case,. Notes, are user requests for additional functionality resisted? This really comes off as Logos/Bob saying "No users, you are wrong." Does that ever work?
Bob Pritchett said:And yet people keep "blaming us" when notes doesn't meet their need for something completely different.
Users complain when the product doesn't do what they want and they feel the company isn't listening. Especially when they are so good at listening in other areas. Isn't the challenge for the software developer to hear the needs, and give customers either what they want or something better/different that encapsulates what they want? The specific requests may be hokey, but the user pain is very real. Logos has not come off as caring about that as much as users would like to see.
Bob Pritchett said:I am willing to discuss changes to what we support, and even willing to implement features you want that I wouldn't particularly care for. I'm willing to believe that many people -- or even a majority of people -- define things differently than I do.
I think if this offer, albeit a begrudging one [;)], was backed up by action, really trying to cull through all the chaos of user requests and offer enhancements that showed Logos really wanted to make this more acceptable to its customer base, then the blame and acrimony would stop.
This debate has gone on for years, and as long as Logos/Bob resists the fact that so many users ask for improvements in Notes, the debate and blame will continue. Users will never change their mind and think that Notes does what they want, and Logos will never convince them Notes is fine. Look at the number of posts on this subject in a short time - can it be denied that this is a hot button?
So why not put some energy into really trying to make Notes something that a lot of users are happy with?
My .02
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Dominick Sela said:
This debate has gone on for years, and as long as Logos/Bob resists the fact that so many users ask for improvements in Notes, the debate and blame will continue. Users will never change their mind and think that Notes does what they want, and Logos will never convince them Notes is fine. Look at the number of posts on this subject in a short time - can it be denied that this is a hot button?
I've begun to think of this differently. For a long time, I just couldn't understand why good folks like MJ, are so emotionally invested in notes being something much, much more than they are. What they want to do with notes is pretty far off my radar, and certainly not even close to a need. After all, I make some pretty good use of Logos and don't feel this need at all.
But I've begun to see something different in this discussion that I've found quite interesting. This is not just a matter of preference, it's a matter of research methodology. I've explained some of my thinking/analysis above, in response to MJ. She approaches Logos in a very different way than I imagined anyone would. And the disconnect between her approach to doing research, and how Logos functions is a bit jarring to her, and to Russ, and a number of others who have contributed to this and other threads.
I agree that the discussion has been going on for years. I've heard it all before, dozens of times. You could say the discussion has been spinning its wheels and going no where for years, with both sides digging in their heals a bit. That usually means the discussion has ceased and accusation, caricaturization, anger and dismissal will soon follow.
But what if this is really not about what notes ought to be, but how Logos could function as a research tool for a greater number of people? What if what we've been missing is a thorough discussion about how some folks actually do research, and how Logos, as is, falls shorter than it has to?
I think there's something here that is worthy of exploring and understanding.
So far the discussion has centered around what is the right way to use notes, what is the right way to think about what notes are for, and why Logos does or doesn't get it right. Let's stop that discussion. It leads no where - at least not anywhere productive.
Let's start this discussion: Logos is a research environment that could be a better research environment if it included a few research tools that it has been missing up to this point; let me try to explain. The above distinction between note taking and note making is a discussion starter in this (though probably not the main point of divergence).
Maybe a better distinction is the one between an annotation and an explication (for lack of better terms - just trying to avoid the word "note" to get at the distinction). Let's understand an annotation as a brief comment, and an explication as a detailed explanation/analysis. Logos current research design/model expects annotations, but not explications. What I hear Bob saying is that we designed an annotation function, that's what it is. We don't need more formatting options for our annotation function to work as designed. What I hear from Russ, MJ and others is: we need an explication function, the current annotation function isn't sufficient to do and retain detailed explanations/analysis.
The two options for Russ, MJ, et al., given the current design, is to cludge something with notes, or use an external program (like Evernote or Onenote). But is that the best way for Logos to deal with this? I'm not sure. There may be a market (I think particularly among academics, but I could be wrong), for more robust explication-type tools within Logos itself.
On the other hand, I'm not sure I've got this right. I'm not one who feels a need for a change in notes. So, here's another 'olive branch' extended to continue this discussion. Maybe if we can articulate the differences with clarity, so as to understand each other, there may be a chance for this discussion to progress, rather than continually come up, go nowhere and die down, only to be resurrected once again like some unwanted, sisyphic phoenix. -- Well, I'm hoping so anyway.
EDIT: Changed "Logos is a research tool" to "Logos is a research environment" and spelled "sisyphic" properly.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Good thoughts, Richard. This is exactly what I meant when I said software companies should look at what users ask for and either give it to them, or give them something better that encompasses their need. The vision of Logos for their product and users needs should not be in such conflict.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
The two options for Russ, MJ, et al., given the current design, is to cludge something with notes, or use an external program (like Evernote or Onenote). But is that the best way for Logos to deal with this? I'm not sure. There may be a market (I think particularly among academics, but I could be wrong), for more robust explication-type tools within Logos itself.
Richard, what you say really resonates for me.
The benefit of a Logos library is the ability interconnect information. It works primarily because we have a text (the Bible) and a reference scheme around which diverse bits of information can be tied together. I can find commentaries on a single verse, find where that verse is cited in reference, theology, and general resources. On top of that Logos designs/licenses databases (morphological, syntactical, Biblical P,P,T, etc.) can be used to make even more connections between information.
Users, understandably, see what is possible with the tools that Logos provides and want to do more. We want to be able to draw connections and create a web of things we've noticed, read, and researched to take our studies to the next level. So, we look to the notes feature to draw these connections, but it is terrible at it. From performance issues to other difficulties notes just can't be used effectively beyond their design limitations. They are only fit to store comments on something.
Now, the Personal Book tool gets part of the way there, but the need to externally edit it and compile it makes it less than ideal.
To Bob I respectfully say, your customers want more ways to consolidate, compile, organize, and create information in Logos. They clamor to be able to do it in notes because it's the closest thing to what has historically been done for this (Word Processing). Would it be possible to start a conversation on the types of things customers want to do in Logos to spec out a new tool(s) without trying to shoehorn notes into something it wasn't designed to do?
Prov. 15:23
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I see notes in Logos as having two functions.
A tool for brief annotations and a tool that I can have links from my Bible to articles in any book in Logos, any Word file and web addresses. My MS Word processor can function as sermon storage, personal Bible commentary etc. So seeing the note file as a hub to these resources, I see that the next big advance would be if the web and resource links were synced to other computers and iOS seamlessly. Of course in the current discussion, any advances in facilitating the storage and retrieval of results of research would be warmly welcomed.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Jerry M said:
I see notes in Logos as having two functions.
A tool for brief annotations and a tool that I can have links from my Bible to articles in any book in Logos, any Word file and web addresses. My MS Word processor can function as sermon storage, personal Bible commentary etc. So seeing the note file as a hub to these resources, I see that the next big advance would be if the web and resource links were synced to other computers and iOS seamlessly. Of course in the current discussion, any advances in facilitating the storage and retrieval of results of research would be warmly welcomed.
Just trying to understand here: You're wanting to collect, manage and retain/retrieve connections to resources (or locations in resources) you've found helpful in your study. Is there a better way to state what you want?
In what way is the "Clippings" tool inadequate for this? (Again, just trying to understand here.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Again, just trying to understand here
I was merely stating that this present function of Logos notes is adequate for what I do. Streamlining or adding additional capabilities would be icing on the cake.
Clippings could be helpful also, but I never really incorporated them too much.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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EDIT: I wanted to copy Richard's entire comment above on the previous page about the differences in research methodologies, because I think he verbalized it exactly how I feel.
Ask yourselves, why are we buying a commentary after commentary, and ABD upon HALOT...? To further our understanding and presentation of God's Word. In a decent commentary, a treatment of 1 verse can take several pages, likewise a treatment of a particular subject, place, individual, etc. Why is Bob surprised that our note (which is attached to a verse) should be any smaller? After all, another way to look at notes is as our personal commentary on the Bible.
About my research methodology: As I interact with the Biblical text, I attach a blank note to a verse and type my observations about the text. Then as I study further, using the tools that Logos has, I ADD other observations about relationships with other scriptures, words, themes, etc. I go through ANALYSIS stage and finally a SYNTHESIS. Maybe when I read this passage a year from now, I could add another PERSONAL insight to my commentary (this is similar to what MJ was talking about the second and third time around building on the previous research). The resulting document is precious and for many preachers, teachers, academics, students it grows far beyond a mere "scribble in the margin of our bibles." As Graham Owen brilliantly stated, there is NO OTHER tool, which has the capability for OUR notes to be linked to the Biblical text and be searched and indexed like LOGOS4! If not notes, then what?
This is why, I join many users on this forum who view clippings, sentence diagrams, time-lines, and notes as simply notes with many faces on. They are OUR observations, analysis, synthesis, translation, relationship mapping...
We simply don't have anything better that would still be linked to the biblical text and be indexed/searched by LOGOS.
I understand Bob's definition for Logos' notes. But he is not a Pastor/Teacher/Counselor who literally has to daily interact and build upon biblical text for preaching/teaching/ exhorting... Why was it surprising to Bob, that a user had his own translation of every verse? To me, the fact that his file was triple the size of available memory is simply a technical issue. With LOGOS' vision of technology enhancements, why not design with the understanding that users' interactions with the biblical text would be huge?
If LOGOS wants us to have thousands of first class resources in our libraries, why does it feel like they don't want us to have a resource AUTHORED by us?
I second the idea that originated long time ago that Logos would invite a test panel, consisting of full time academics, students, pastors, counselors, lay leaders and LISTEN to their "definitions", take a look at their methodologies, instead of saying "well, this is what notes are to me" or "we believe that Personal Books is often a better solution, and that when it's not the new solution will be a new web site that we haven't coded yet."
Since Logos is a business, maybe we need to talk business. I appreciate the amazing program that L4 has become. It provides such a value to me, that I would be willing to pay good money for it. But notice, it was Logos that offered it for free. Why? While I can't truly speak for them, it seems they do this out of tremendous respect for God's Word and desire to see the Good news of Christ spread to every people group out there. Supporting users' ability to observe, comment, dissect, analyze - NOTE God's Word is exactly inline with your goals!
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Richard DeRuiter said:
In what way is the "Clippings" tool inadequate for this?
Clippings are inadequate because they can only be used with Logos resources. I second MJ's idea for notes/clippings (I view them as the same Person holding several Offices):
- notes that can be attached to anything
- notes that can contain anything
As this is a fundamental design decision, I am not sure if it can technically be implemented (images and tables in notes), but at the same time, a sentence diagrammer is very complex (in my naive understanding of underlying programming).
Look, if they just licence OneNote to have its functionality native in Logos, I would be willing to pay for the licence.
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Bob Pritchett said:
The first user to be really upset about notes contacted us in 1992. He was upset about performance, and how notes were slowing down the system. We couldn't understand how this was possible, since we kept them in memory for high-speed access with no need to hit the disk. (Our notes then could only be attached to a verse, with only one note per verse, and only supported plain text.)
He sent us the note file.
He had attached a note to every verse in the Bible. Each note contained the full text of the verse in Chinese, resulting in a 3 megabyte note file in the days when computers had 1 meg of memory.
So was this poor performance design on our part? Or user error?
Let me answer your question with a question: are limitations now due to technical issues (amount of RAM, bandwidth, processor capabilities), or simply your rigid vision and design?
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Thank you for helping to crystalize the discrepancy in understanding, and for the civic tone of this conversation. I also do not have a strong need (yet) for beefed up notes capabilities (just make it keep up with our typing speed), but I'd like to summarize my understanding of other users' expressed needs so far:
- Bob sees Logos as a Bible ANALYSIS tool, but some users are asking for a better SYNTHESIS tool, and they want it INTEGRATED with the analytical functions.
- Bob sees Logos primarily as a content CONSUMPTION tool, but users also want content CREATION capabilities integrated with that.
Let the conversation continue. This is very enlightening.
Thanks,
Peter
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toughski said:
. . . or simply your rigid vision and design?
These sorts of characterizations and exaggerated dichotomies are not helpful.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
These sorts of characterizations and exaggerated dichotomies are not helpful.
I apologize, as I meant no disrespect. Maybe my word choice was inadequate. By rigid I meant "text only", "small amounts of".
It would be interesting to hear a comment to the first part of my question: are limitations now due to technical issues (amount of RAM, bandwidth, processor capabilities)
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toughski said:
I apologize, as I meant no disrespect. Maybe my word choice was inadequate. By rigid I meant "text only", "small amounts of".
Thanks for your conciliatory follow-up. (I wasn't offended and didn't feel a need for an apology. But if it makes you feel better, I accept your apology. Let's move on.)
toughski said:It would be interesting to hear a comment to the first part of my question: are limitations now due to technical issues (amount of RAM, bandwidth, processor capabilities)
Having listened to this discussion over the years, I'd have to say both yes and no. In one sense the technical capabilities of computers a vastly beyond what was even imagined in the 80's. In another sense, there are technical challenges to implementing any feature in a program as complex as Logos4, let alone providing the technical support for them.As they are now, extensive use of notes degrades performance for many users. Enhancing notes is not likely to make this situation better. So yes, there are technical issues to resolve, and I'm quite sure not all of them are fully understood.
However, I'm convinced that if Logos were to decide to take on the challenge, they would do everything they could to mitigate the technical issues. So it's a problem, but not a barrier.
That's my opinion, having listened to these types of discussions over the years.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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toughski said:
are limitations now due to technical issues (amount of RAM, bandwidth, processor capabilities),
See this discussion http://community.logos.com/forums/p/19572/182193.aspx
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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