Logos 4 (content and documentation) - terms of use

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Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Dec 29 2011 10:33 AM

I have been using the logos 4 software for sometime now and I have found it to be a very useful personal study tool. Now, in addition to this I would like to use the content (e.g. photos, clipart & text) in my sermons (which are sometimes recorded on video and audio and sold) as well as in church pamphlets which are given away free and in books that I have written which are sometimes sold and sometimes given away free. After having read the EULA (http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/2090). I found it very restrictive. See below,

"THINGS YOU MAY NOT DO

The the Software, Content, and Documentation as copyrighted material. You may not:

- copy the Documentation,

- copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above"

It doesn't seem like it allows us to use logos for anything except personal study - even though there is a feature to import pictures into powerpoint (which will obviously be used for presentations). I mean according to this I can't even copy the documentation or content into my own books, or pamphlets or quote it in a sermon that will be recorded. What exactly is meant by documentation and content anyway?

My suggestion is that perhaps there should be a clause added that is headed "THINGS YOU MAY DO".

In Christ

Christopher

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 10:51 AM

Christopher Edward Gunter:
After having read the EULA (http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/2090). I found it very restrictive. … It doesn't seem like it allows us to use logos for anything except personal study - even though there is a feature to import pictures into powerpoint (which will obviously be used for presentations).  

Despite the impression you might get from reading the EULA, there is always the "fair use" clause.  If you use a picture or a paragraph, fair use would cover that.  Just don't go hog wild and copy the entire chapter or even the book.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 10:56 AM

Thanks for that, however, what exactly are the boundries of fair use? Isn't it only educational use and non-commercial use? That means I cannot sell the sermons with logos content in them. I can only use them to give away for free?!

In addition to that, I am in South Africa and you are possibly in America, the definition of fair use may be different for our countries.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 11:16 AM

Christopher Edward Gunter:

Thanks for that, however, what exactly are the boundries of fair use? Isn't it only educational use and non-commercial use? That means I cannot sell the sermons with logos content in them. I can only use them to give away for free.

In addition to that, I am in South Africa and you are possibly in America, the definition of fair use may be different for our countries.

They aren't precisely defined.  If you quote a poem, e.g., it might be only a small portion of a book, but it might be too much to be considered fair use.  See

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 11:48 AM

Thanks for the link to the website. Apparently fair use includes (among other things) criticism, research, scholarship, teaching, and comment, but it must be for non-profit, educational purposes. Also the idea is that you don't affect the potential market or value of the copied work. Nevertheless, sometimes the copying is part of a commercial product and neither the user license and nor my understanding of fair use permits this (I will try to understand fair use better, though - perhaps it is allowed).

Posts 12080
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 12:29 PM

Christopher Edward Gunter:

Thanks for the link to the website. Apparently fair use includes (among other things) criticism, research, scholarship, teaching, and comment, but it must be for non-profit, educational purposes. Also the idea is that you don't affect the potential market or value of the copied work. Nevertheless, sometimes the copying is part of a commercial product and neither the user license and nor my understanding of fair use permits this (I will try to understand fair use better, though - perhaps it is allowed).

As I see it, the copyright terms may be different per resource - at least Logos resources contain the copyright pages from resources, which are different. I'd probably go for a pragmatic approach: if you had this resource in paper, what would you be able to cite or use for your works? Logos probably can't give you more rights to the content, it's just easier to retrieve and copy.

Maybe you'd need to ask a lawyer in South Africa, however the situation with copyrights of digital resources may be very unspecific, lacking fix rules and relevant court decisions.

 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 1:41 PM

Christopher Edward Gunter:
In addition to that, I am in South Africa and you are possibly in America, the definition of fair use may be different for our countries.

I think the copyright pertains to the rules of the country of origin.  In other words, if it is copyrighted in the US, it is governed by the regulations of the US.  If it is copyrighted in the UK, it goes by the UK regulations.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 11:22 PM

I actually was already thinking of going to a lawyer in South Africa about certain copyright issues. However, I know that our Heavenly Advocate is helping us get this straight without having to spend too much money on lawyers for what might turn out to be an obviously easy answer.

As I am thinking more deeply about this, I can see there are different levels of copyright in this matter.

Level 1: copyright owned by logos on the software (and the content of the software) which is governed by the end user license agreement (EULA)

Level 2: copyright owned by the publisher of the book which is governed by the copyright notice in the book.

So even if I were to contact the publisher about quoting material in a book and get permission, I would still have to contact logos to get permission to use the content within their software.

At level 1 it seems that logos has made a blanket statement for all books in their software - that is that they may not be copied (even if they are public domain). The fact that they are in the logos software means that their use is governed by the EULA for logos 4 users.

In addition to this, it seems to me that the fair use matter is a separate issue to whether the EULA allows you to use the logos 4 content in your own materials that will be sold (and even copyrighted by yourself). By purchasing the software the end user agrees to keep the EULA and they can claim fair use if they want to but they are contradicting the EULA that they have agreed to when they downloaded the software.

 

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 11:40 PM

Perhaps a more useful suggestion would be for logos 4 to change their EULA to say that the content of each book is governed by each individual publisher, and that for quotes and use of the content of the book, the individual publisher must be consulted. Public domain books may be used without permission. In doing so, they could leave out the clause about not copying the content of the software which would free up the end user to only have to sort out copyright matters at the second level of the publisher of the book.

They might also put an extra option in the menu when you are wanting copy something from the software - something that tells the user what the exact copyright on the book is and it's use as governed by the software.

In addition to this they may be able to negotiate a special deal with certain publishers for logos 4 users to have "quoting permission" for certain books and notification of this could be part of the extra option alluded to above.

 

Posts 2832
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 2:52 AM

Christopher Edward Gunter:

Perhaps a more useful suggestion would be for logos 4 to change their EULA to say that the content of each book is governed by each individual publisher, and that for quotes and use of the content of the book, the individual publisher must be consulted. 

Logos EULA also says:
Ownership of the Content remains with Copyright holders.

Not being a lawyer I would read that to imply that the Copyright statement in the resource would apply.


Also did they really mean that the product will only run for 90 days?

“We warrant that for a period of 90 days after delivery of this copy of the Software to you:
- if provided, the physical media on which this copy of the Software is distributed will be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use, and
- the Software will perform in substantial accordance with the Documentation.”

I think they meant to say:
We warrant that:
- the Software will perform in substantial accordance with the Documentation and
- if provided, the physical media on which this copy of the Software is distributed will be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period of 90 days after delivery of this copy of the Software to you.


But to fix that TYPO they will need to get the written permission of ALL Logos users:

“2. This license agreement may be modified only by a writing signed by you and us.”

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 8:49 AM

You have a point, however, it doesn't change the fact that they have said that "You may not ... copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above". So that brings us back to level 1 - before we even get to the publisher, we have to deal with the logos EULA to copy portions of the content into our own documents. And that EULA says we may not!!!! Through this EULA logos has kind of put an additional lock onto the use of the content, a lock that the end user encounters before the copyright lock of the publishers. This additional lock means that even if the content is public domain, if an end user accesses it through logos, they may not copy it.

So then perhaps my suggestion should be to change the EULA to say "You may copy the content into your own documents provided you do so in accordance with the appropriate copyright laws or have permission from the copyright holders since ownership of the content remains with the copyright holders".

As to modifying the EULA by a writing signed by us and them, is it possible to include the new EULA into an update and get everyone to agree to it before the update loads (that is what Windows does for some of it's applications, e.g. windows media player). It depends on whether they would consider everyone clicking "I agree" to constitute "a writing signed by you and us". Those who don't agree will stay with the old EULA, those who do agree will go with the new.

In some circles a EULA is quite serious business and some companies don't deal with certain products because of restrictions on the license agreements. In my opinion, typos in EULAs should be dealt with if they amount to serious misinterpretations or people not being interested in the product.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 9:03 AM

I think you raise a valid question that needs to be addressed by Logos. In light of the new Proclaim presentation software there needs to be clarification of what may be displayed publicly and what restrictions apply.

 

I am assuming some pastors or worship leaders use their Logos software content in some presentations. I have no experience or knowledge of the Proclaim product.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 9:15 AM

So here are some more suggestions about what logos can do about this. I am trusting God that we have the mind of Christ in this.

(1) They can change the EULA as suggested above. Although this might be quite a process.

(2) They can get permission from the copyright holders for logos users to copy portions of the content within certain restrictions. Kind of like what you get in some of the bibles when they say "portions of the NIV may be quoted in any form written, audio-visual, electronic without express written permission from the publishers, up to and inclusive of 500 verses as long as it does not amount to an entire book of the bible". So the logos publisher could say something similar like "portions of this book may be quoted in any form written, audio-visual, electronic without express written permission from the publishers, up to and inclusive of 1000 words as long as it does not amount to an entire chapter". What I like about this suggestion is that it does leave the logos end user the responsibility of contacting the copyright holder and checking if they can use the content in their context, neither does it leave those who are unsure of whether their intended use of the content is "fair use" in the dark. We can all be sure that our use of the content is legal and in accordance with the wishes of the copyright holders.

(3) They could include an automatic bibliographic reference generator in the software that inserts the reference to the copied content in the new document whenever content is highlighted and copied.

(4) This automatic reference could include the two levels. It would acknowledge that (1) this content came from logos 4 and (2) this content is copyrighted by it's own specified copyright holder.

(5) They could include a special feature in the logos documentation explaining these issues and "fair use" to the end user so there is no amibiguity about how the content may be used.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 9:32 AM

Christopher Edward Gunter:

So here are some more suggestions about what logos can do about this.

(1) They can change the EULA as suggested above. Although this might be quite a process.

I am a bit concerned about the perceived need to quantify precisely what can be copied.  If you copy 499 verses of a translation, it is permitted.  If, however, you copy 501 verses, you're in trouble.  This reminds me of straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.  Use your common sense (assuming you have some).  I mentioned earlier that there might be a problem with copying an entire poem from a book.  That was because a complete poem would constitute a substantial portion of the work.  If you copy a sentence or two or even a paragraph, this is customary practice in reviews and in other works dealing with the subject under consideration.  I haven't heard of it being a significant problem.  Why be the dog with a bone worrying it to death?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 10:00 AM

I can see your point. I am sure the police in America have more important things to do than to chase after villians who are copying 501 words from the logos content instead of the 500 words expressly allowed by the publisher. However, sometimes publishers may split hairs especially when it comes to the re-use of photos and clip art in copyrighted works (e.g. books/websites/sermons) that are sold for a profit - they might want a cut out of the profits.

However, you have only dealt with one of the suggestions above - that is the permission from the copyright holders. It still doesn't change the fact that the Logos EULA states "You may not ... copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above". This means that end users are agreeing not to make copies of it at all for personal or commercial purposes. And the fact is, if this is so unimportant, why include this statement in the EULA in the first place and why make us agree to it before we can load the software?

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 10:09 AM

Thanks Super Tramp. I have not used Logos 4 content in any of my presentations yet, although I would like to, and that is because of the End User License Agreement (EULA) that I was asked to agree to when I loaded the Logos software.

That is the reason I started this discussion because I know the Logos resource could make my presentations much nicer and it would glorify God to have stunning pictures and quotes in my sermons, however, I wasn't sure if I had misinterpreted the EULA. Promotion of the new Presentation software would seem to be promoting the use of the Logos content in presentations.

Posts 1829
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 10:16 AM

I may be misunderstanding the discussion, if so, please ignore me. My understanding is that the EULA deals strictly with the software. In other words, you may not copy any of the Logos code, Logos documentation or redistribute Logos (the program) without permission from Logos. The permissions for the resources are copyrighted and you must read each individual resource's copyright and redistribution permissions that the publisher allows by clicking on the information button. When you copy a resource into a PowerPoint or other similar format, it is the publisher's guidelines you must follow and not the Logos EULA. You are copying a resource and not the Logos program itself.

The program simply allows the resource to be viewed, searched etc.

Posts 23
Christopher Gunter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 10:28 AM

Hi Rick, According to how I have interpreted it so far, no the EULA does not deal with only with the software. It also deals with the content of the books. That is why there is a distinction made in the EULA between "content" and "documentation". Content refers to what is in the books. Documentation refers to the stuff the program is made of. Both are not allowed to be copied according to this EULA.

This means that Logos end users have to follow both the Logos EULA and the publishers permissions. One of my suggestions is that Logos alter the EULA so that end users don't have additional restrictions on the content.

Please note: that is how I have interpreted the EULA, really we should have an authorized person from Logos to tell us exactly what they refer to when they say "documentation and content". To have this in writing would help immensely.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 10:46 AM

George Somsel:
I think the copyright pertains to the rules of the country of origin.  In other words, if it is copyrighted in the US, it is governed by the regulations of the US.  If it is copyrighted in the UK, it goes by the UK regulations.

not exactly.  KJV is copyrighted in England, but it is in the public domain in the US.

Posts 1829
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 11:13 AM

Christopher Edward Gunter:
That is why there is a distinction made in the EULA between "content" and "documentation".

I understand now. The way that I was interpreting the EULA  was that the content was the setup.exe and program files themselves and the documentation was the help files and other documents that pertain to the program.

Maybe one of the programmers or Logos employees could help us with the intent. As with every contract, especially here in the United States, the intent of the wording is very important.

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