What approach is used for Greek transliteration?

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jan 4 2012 6:48 AM

What is the approach that Logos uses for transliteration? For example, I have seen that upsilon is sometimes transliterated as y and sometimes u.

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 6:56 AM

It depends on the resource, not on Logos.  Logos' task is to reproduce (perfectly if they can) the resources as they appear in paper format.   Thus you are seeing the fruits of the original author's work.

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Posts 5
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 7:23 AM

Then let me be more specific. I have an ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament. I contacted John Schwandt, the general editor, to ask this question. He said that Logos had supplied the transliteration and he did not know the source. So, what is the source of the transliteration used in the ESV interlinear?

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 7:35 AM

So, in your example Y and U are both used for the upsilon in the same ESV interlinear but at different places?  

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Posts 5
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 7:45 AM

Here is an example. Acts 4:32, hyparchonton (5225), auto (846). The upsilon at or near the beginning of a word with the hard accent is consistently transliterated with y.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 8:58 AM

Mark Smith:
what is the source of the transliteration used in the ESV interlinear?

Generally speaking, you are. Sort of. Go to Program Settings, and you can choose what standard you want to see used.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 9:59 PM

Mark Smith:

Here is an example. Acts 4:32, hyparchonton (5225), auto (846). The upsilon at or near the beginning of a word with the hard accent is consistently transliterated with y.

The transliteration hyparchonton includes "h" for the rough breathing mark over upsilon.  In contrast, a smooth breathing mark is over the upsilon in auto.

The English prefix hyp- often corresponds to two Greek letters upsilon and pi with a rough breathing mark over upsilon.  Appears upsilon with rough breathing at beginning of a word is transliterated "hy" while "u" is used for other upsilons.  Note: the capital form of upsilon Υ looks like a Y.

By the way, the word hyparchonton has an acute accent over omicron while the word auto has a circumflex accent over omega.

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Posts 5
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 5 2012 7:01 PM

Thanks for the detailed response and explanation. So if I understand correctly, the transliteration is not merely a transposition from Greek to equivalent English letters. But should the Greek be pronounced "hyp" or "hup"? I have read a little about the different ways proposed to pronounce NT Greek, but I have not seen anything to suggest that upsilon should be pronounced differently depending on placement or accent within a particular system of pronunciation.

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LogosEmployee

Mark Smith:

What is the approach that Logos uses for transliteration? For example, I have seen that upsilon is sometimes transliterated as y and sometimes u.

The default Greek transliteration style in Logos 4 comes from the SBL Handbook of Style §5.3. I don't think that resource is available online, but a summary of its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm

Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 5:17 AM

Bradley Grainger:

Mark Smith:

What is the approach that Logos uses for transliteration? For example, I have seen that upsilon is sometimes transliterated as y and sometimes u.

The default Greek transliteration style in Logos 4 comes from the SBL Handbook of Style §5.3. I don't think that resource is available online, but a summary of its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm

Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".

Thanks Geeked

 

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Appears upsilon with rough breathing at beginning of a word is transliterated "hy" while "u" is used for other upsilons. 

Apologies: looking at soul (Acts 4:32) in screen shot shows upsilon with "y" transliteration.

Transliteration has variances to render (or print) Greek and Hebrew using English letters.

Mark Smith:
But should the Greek be pronounced "hyp" or "hup"?

Yes.  For lemma's, Logos 4 has two Greek pronunciations: Erasmus and Modern.

By the way, some English letters have changed over centuries of use.  For example, a reprint of the First Edition of the Authorized Version has these Old Testament books:

  • Efther
  • Iob
  • Pfalmes
  • Prouerbes
  • Ecclefiaftes

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Posts 95
Rick Brannan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 5:22 AM

Bradley Grainger:

its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm

Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".

And, if you're interested in transliterating your own unicode Greek words/strings, you can use http://transliterate.com/ which follows the same rules ("Society of Biblical Literature" output) but also gives some other options.

(note: transliterate.com is a Logos site)

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Posts 5
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 5:37 AM

Very good. This is what I was after.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 5:50 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

By the way, some English letters have changed over centuries of use.  For example, a reprint of the First Edition of the Authorized Version has these Old Testament books: 

  • Efther
  • Iob
  • Pfalmes
  • Prouerbes
  • Ecclefiaftes

Note that the strange "f" you see in Esther, Psalmes and Ecclesiastes just looks a bit like "f" but is a form of "s" - we used to have these in Germany as well. Actually it was a bit like Greek, where you have in-word sigma and closing sigma. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s - the "long s" never was an "f" 

 

 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 6:37 AM

NewbieMick:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

By the way, some English letters have changed over centuries of use.  For example, a reprint of the First Edition of the Authorized Version has these Old Testament books: 

  • Efther
  • Iob
  • Pfalmes
  • Prouerbes
  • Ecclefiaftes

Note that the strange "f" you see in Esther, Psalmes and Ecclesiastes just looks a bit like "f" but is a form of "s" - we used to have these in Germany as well. Actually it was a bit like Greek, where you have in-word sigma and closing sigma. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s - the "long s" never was an "f" 

Thanks, looking carefully at reprint can now see the long "s" letter form that lacks a little nib on right side.  Also noticing i and y usage variances.  For example, Psalms 150 has Praise and Prayse.  Psalms 2:2 has Anoynted while Iob XXXVIII:39 has lyon (vis anointed and lion in modern English).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 8:13 PM

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Histengl/spelling.html

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 5:13 AM

MJ. Smith:

Thanks Geeked appreciate insight about English spelling differences across the pond.

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Posts 34
John Percival | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 30 2019 2:31 AM

πραΰτης: prautēs or praytēs? 

Apologies for resurrecting such a long-dead thread, but it's on exactly the topic I'm trying to understand, so seemed the best place to post.

I'm trying to work out how to transliterate πραΰτης, which transliterate.com gives as prautēs for the SBL.

The notable point about this word is the diaeresis mark of the fourth letter, the upsilon. This means that it does not form a diphthong, and therefore my reading of the SBL guide is that it should therefore be transliterated as "y" not "u" - i.e., praytēs.

Can anyone shed light on this for me please? prautēs or praytēs?

Many thanks!

Posts 640
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 30 2019 6:02 AM

Was this thread started by the infamous Mark Smith, that we have all come love and appreciate?

Sorry this does not address your request John.  Whisper

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 30 2019 1:33 PM

Rick Brannan:

Bradley Grainger:

its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm

Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".

And, if you're interested in transliterating your own unicode Greek words/strings, you can use http://transliterate.com/ which follows the same rules ("Society of Biblical Literature" output) but also gives some other options.

(note: transliterate.com is a Logos site)

http://transliterate.com/ shows πραΰτης

John Percival:
πραΰτηςprautēs or praytēs?

Untransliterate (g:prautēs or g:praytēs) in Logos & Verbum show same choices in drop-down selection list.

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