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Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:06 AM

Paul Newsome:

I've read all the replies to get a sense for the disgust but feel oddly that I'm not missing out because I never really experienced Libronix in the first place.  I think many newer users may be scratching our heads at these responses.  

History does tend to repeat itself. I was once told by a wise pastor, that a way a young lady treats her father would be pretty close to the way she would treat her husband (and visa versa with young men). The way LOGOS treats previous customers who faithfully supported them and bought crazy expensive "licences" to be locked into their free platform, will be pretty close to the way they treat future customers. Actually, with time things tend to get worse.

Paul Newsome:
Are we just ignorant?  Is it like having to go to my grandfather to be told how the good ole days were or is ignorance bliss in our case?*
 

Proverbs 22:3     The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.

The issue to me is not so much inability to use Libronix now (I have sufficient backups, archived emails with links to purchased resources, knowledge of FTP location of L3 resources, etc.),  The issue to me is CUSTOMER SERVICE and respect. I've already voiced my concerns over "nagging," it falls in the same category.

Here is the irony: disabling all the links to L3 resources on my order pages took time and effort, time and effort which could have been put in enhancing customer experience - managing the transition better! Assuring customers that spent an equivalent of an Eastern European country's GDP, that their licenses are going to retain value for a very-very long time. Offering the same "wild push" to address customer questions and concerns on the phone as they did with the Dec 26th Sales Event.

And what did Logos get by disabling access to PURCHASED L3 resources? Only alienation, angst and resentment. 

note: text above was edited after it was originally posted.

 

 

 

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:12 AM

Mark:

Paul, L5 will one day come out....and when it does, there is a chance that an announcement will be made that support for L4 will continue.  Two years into L5, Logos will then suddenly drop support for L4.  You, and all those who did not experience Libronix, will then experience the sense and level of frustration that those who have already gone this route are experiencing today. 

One must always be wise in their spending habits, knowing that whatever policy exists today, may be taken away tomorrow.

Mark, do I need to experience it after reading this thread.  There have been many that have communicated their frustration very clearly here in this thread.  I encourage each one who has been frustrated by this announcement to contact Logos personally (and some have!). My fear is that some who have perceived an injustice will only post in this thread and then live disgruntled with the way they see Logos Bible Software.  That's no way to live!  Mark, you also implicated that I'll be frustrated at the future release of Logos per the current situation.  Based on my L4 experience I continue to think I'll be pleasantly surprised.  It does irk me that not everyone shares my experience and I don't like that you and others have been frustrated as you have with the software.

Posts 5458
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:19 AM

I am and have been and will be an avid promoter of L3. It can't do everything that L4 can do, but that goes both ways. For me, the things L3 does that L4 doesn't are a huge trump card. L4 has been missing so many things I use on a constant daily basis that it took a long time to cope with the frustration. I like the things L4 does well, but it cannot and never will hold a candle to L3 in many crucial ways--notes being the most obvious.

I don't despise L4, but I do despise what L4 did to L3, without so much as attemtping to fill its shoes. If someone offered me $1 million dollars and unfettered access to the entire Logos stable of resources on the single condition that I give up L3, I would have to regretfully turn that offer down. My ability to create notes that pop-up and can be as big as my screen allows me to create presentations and put right into my Bible all the information I need to unravel the Bible's mysteries. L4, on the other hand, is a fancy search engine.

In the gaming industry, certain companies provide end users the ability to code their own changes and upgrades to the off-the-shelf game. As a result, one can often find so-called "mods" that provide an end user experience that is far superior to the original game. I would love to see Bob find a new owner for L3. He doesn't appreciate it because he is now focused on his new babies (L4, the cloud, phone apps, Vyrso, Proclaim, etc.). He talks a lot about the short-comings of L3. I will take those short-comings and its functionality any day over anything Logos has produced in the last 5 years.

I concur with others that the "out of the blue" nature of this announcement, right after a promotion whose purpose was to generate hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of Logos "credit" is a SCANDAL. What good is Logos credit to a user of L3 when L3 files have been discontinued???? On top of that, if I had known that it was my final chance to get L3 resources, I may have gone ahead and purchased the Master Collection.

As it stands, I will be getting refunds on anything I can't use in L3, and cancelling my thousands of dollars of CPs. I guess I'm done with Logos. Actually, I think it may be a sign from God that I already have all I need.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:22 AM

toughski:

Paul Newsome:

I've read all the replies to get a sense for the disgust but feel oddly that I'm not missing out because I never really experienced Libronix in the first place.  I think many newer users may be scratching our heads at these responses.  

History does tend to repeat itself. I was once told by a wise pastor, that a way a young lady treats her father would be pretty close to the way she would treat her husband (and visa versa with young men). The way LOGOS treats previous customers who faithfully supported them and bought crazy expensive "licences" to be locked into their free platform, will be pretty close to the way they treat future customers. Actually, with time things tend to get worse.

Paul Newsome:
Are we just ignorant?  Is it like having to go to my grandfather to be told how the good ole days were or is ignorance bliss in our case?*
 

Proverbs 22:3     The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.

I and many others have yet to suffer at the hands of Logos.  I see what you're saying Toughski yet if we believed Logos did not improve on its opportunities none of us  would be on this board.  My aim is not to sound like a hold out or a "model user" by any means.  I do hope that those who are disgruntled or even concerned by this experience make an effort to dialogue with Logos beyond this forum.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:46 AM

Well, Paul ... you're one of my favorites on the forum. Andy also impresses me, keeping an even-keel when someone took what was most precious to him (his identity). But 'dialoging' with Logos will be unavoidable in the next couple of weeks (the 30-day return period). Yesterday, I was a little surprised. This morning I was thinking I really HAD gone over budget on Logos (with a good chance to reverse course). And now, I'm 50-50 depending on if Bob wakes up from his nap to see how his small bomb-tossing exercise is coming along.

A poster above is right though. The brothers DO get wound up on selling; just not supporting. It reminds me a lot of electric car companies (we have one here).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:48 AM

David Paul:
On top of that, if I had known that it was my final chance to get L3 resources, I may have gone ahead and purchased the Master Collection.

David, I believe all the resources produced up to Jan 1, 2012 still exist in both Libronix and L4 format. So, in essence, you still are able to buy the Maters' Collection now (without a very good discount) and use it in Libronix unless your faith in Logos completely evaporated. It might be wise for Logos to host the Libronix files for a very, very long time.

Paul Newsome:
My aim is not to sound like a hold out or a "model user" by any means.  I do hope that those who are disgruntled or even concerned by this experience make an effort to dialogue with Logos beyond this forum
 

 

Paul Newsome:
I encourage each one who has been frustrated by this announcement to contact Logos personally (and some have!). My fear is that some who have perceived an injustice will only post in this thread and then live disgruntled with the way they see Logos Bible Software.  That's no way to live!

I am not disgruntled Big Smile, and I appreciate the freedom to dialogue with Logos by voting with my wallet

 

Posts 218
John Nerdue | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:58 AM

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Posts 159
ELA | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 9:37 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I'm sorry our announcement is late; we are planning to drop support for Libronix edition of new releases. It's been over 2 years since we moved to Logos 4, and most of our users have moved to it.

Has there been an announcement? Where?- I don't remember having seen any!

This decision cannot have been a sudden one - it takes a lot of planning on many levels. But it has been slipped in on the customers: “- There are so few Libronix users left, so most won't even notice!”
This may well be so but I feel so sad about it!

Bob Pritchett:

As we add more functionality and support for richer tagging to Logos 4, it's harder and more time-consuming to build Libronix-compatible editions. And while there are still Libronix users, they typically aren't frequent/active purchasers of new content. (They are increasingly, by definition, people who don't upgrade/buy a lot of new things.)

I fully understand that Libronix files cannot be created and supported forever. But I feel so run over (most other companies announce in good advance from which date things will change. Why has it just been slipped in? It would have been so easy to write a blog: “from {so and so date} it will no longer be possible to download Libronix files from your order page - so if you need to get the scripts and the files  - go and get them before it's too late!”

- or in the sales bombardment before Christmas to put 'Libronix files' in among the books (like Vyrso and pre-pubs) you would NOT be able to buy with your credits!

- or on the pre-pub page to write: “this/these work/-s will only be available in Logos 4”.

Not all Libronix-users are non-buying users. I for one have bought for several thousand $ each year over the last years. This Christmas I bought enough books to get to the 40% prize bracket. I have been in good faith that I would be able to spend the credits on Libronix files - until I in advance would be otherwise informed.
I have signed up for pre-pubs and community prizing books for several thousand $ (and yes - I would probably have cancelled some of them) - but again it would have been soooo easy for Logos to write on the information page: “These books will only be available in Logos 4”- and that would have settled the matter.

Bob Pritchett:

We believe the time is right to drop Libronix support on new releases so that we can put our resources into other efforts.

I know many people do still use Libronix, and we're not disabling it, we're just not going to keep putting more and more effort into supporting it with new releases. I apologize for the disconnect between the change in releases and the announcement; if you need to return a resource we'll be happy to help you with that.

This last statement is enormously arrogant and manipulative!

Logos has been a HUUGE investment for me - both in time and money. The choosing of a platform is a very serious matter. I'm sure Logos is well aware of this when they make a sales bombardement as the one they did in December (- how many people want to buy NICOT/NICNT twice - and start highlighting and writing notes all over?)
I don't object to Logos' plans to discontinue distributing Libronix files in the future. It cannot be otherwise, but the switch is highly sensitive. People have all kinds of legitimate (- and a few maybe not-so-legitimate) reasons for using Libronix, but until Logos 4 works just as well as Libronix it's not fair to discontinue.
However, the secretly 'slipping-in' of the thing is very disturbing!

Elisabet

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 9:50 AM

James Chaisson:
That would be great. Let someone else have Libronix so we can continue to use and even buy new titles through them. I don't think that will happen but would be great.
Make it open source.Big Smile

James Chaisson:
At this point I just want my money back and I will go somewhere else. I m done with Logos. I hope they refund my money but I will have to wait for a reply from CS.

I'm not trying to minimize your trauma so let us look at this with pragmatism.  Our Libronix installations will still function today like they did yesterday. It looks like Logos is maintaining it's ftp site for Libronix files. There are even some Logos 2.0 files hosted there. The resources we will miss out on are not being taken away, they just never showed up. So the Libronix program we have used all these years is still functional. 

In light of the above paragraph I doubt Logos owes refunds for anything previous to the last 30 days. Asking for a 100% refund for everything you have purchased is like driving an automobile for 4 years and then trying to return it to the dealer because features on newer models are not retrofitted to your aging model. Getting a refund for purchases made in December is certainly within our rights. Refunding everybody everything they have ever spent is not possible. How many $6000 order history refunds do you think it would take to bankrupt Logos?

Logos has approximately 17,000 resources in their catalog. It is possible that number includes a few hundred currently in development. Of the other 16,000+ titles, most have a Libronix format file. As long as we have access to those files we still have a substantial library equaled by no other Bible software company. It would help a lot of die-hard Libronix users if Logos would continue to offer those resources in the general catalog that are already in Libronix format.. That includes everything in the Portfolio Collection, the Master Collection, The Catholic Scholars package, the Black Friday Library Builders, the 501 book unlock from Nelson, and so on. Another chance to buy some of these with the great deals that were available with would be helpful. None of us were making an informed buying decision during the great sales push from Black Friday to New Years Day. Logos knew what was coming, we did not. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 10:23 AM

Super Tramp:

I'm not trying to minimize your trauma so let us look at this with pragmatism.  Our Libronix installations will still function today like they did yesterday. It looks like Logos is maintaining it's ftp site for Libronix files. There are even some Logos 2.0 files hosted there. The resources we will miss out on are not being taken away, they just never showed up. So the Libronix program we have used all these years is still functional. 

In light of the above paragraph I doubt Logos owes refunds for anything previous to the last 30 days. Asking for a 100% refund for everything you have purchased is like driving an automobile for 4 years and then trying to return it to the dealer because features on newer models are not retrofitted to your aging model. Getting a refund for purchases made in December is certainly within our rights. Refunding everybody everything they have ever spent is not possible. How many $6000 order history refunds do you think it would take to bankrupt Logos?

Logos has approximately 17,000 resources in their catalog. It is possible that number includes a few hundred currently in development. Of the other 16,000+ titles, most have a Libronix format file. As long as we have access to those files we still have a substantial library equaled by no other Bible software company. It would help a lot of die-hard Libronix users if Logos would continue to offer those resources in the general catalog that are already in Libronix format.. That includes everything in the Portfolio Collection, the Master Collection, The Catholic Scholars package, the Black Friday Library Builders, the 501 book unlock from Nelson, and so on. Another chance to buy some of these with the great deals that were available with would be helpful. None of us were making an informed buying decision during the great sales push from Black Friday to New Years Day. Logos knew what was coming, we did not. 

Yes

Posts 1038
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 10:37 AM

What Logos need to do is to have a transparent and public development plan, detailing when legacy products will cease to be developed or indeed dropped altogether, the people can make their own decisions.

Logos also needs to be more open about development plans, particularly when will Logos 4 have parity with the features much loved in Logo 3. It would be nice if people could know with confidence if the issues people find with logos 4 will be addressed (perhaps even in Logos 5 which will only be an update anyway).

I can understand that such openess causes problems and pressures on Logos but there has got to be some middle ground and there can be no excuse for just pulling the rug from under those who thought (probably foolishly, but that is not the point) that they were investing into a Logos 3 system.

I fully support the decision to depreciate Logos 3 support, it makes sense for eveyone for resources to be applied to the future of the platform and it is this very development that should give us confidence in Logos, but Logos has got to stop being so secretive and high handed, it does not build confidence.  

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 10:55 AM

True, corporate communications is always a challenge.

For those old enough, remember the Edsel? Yes, it was cold winter's day that Ford slipped in a late Friday message 'oh, by the way, we ah won't be ah producing the Edsel, starting uh about now ...'

Then there was the Corvair. That announcement was in the fifth game of the world series.

Of course, who could forget the name of the one with a burnished silver skin .... remember their announcement? That was indeed unforgettable.

Yes, when you'd like people to forget, you kind of forget to announce it.

And certainly for good reason with Logos4. It's still trying hard to meet the perfomance of .... yes ... the best software ever written. Who can forget?

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1723
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 12:08 PM

Whoa! Let's all just calm down for a moment...  Please don't return all your software or burn down our buildings at least until the weekend is over, and we can get our team together in a room! :-)

First: I'm very sorry for the surprise of this. I take full responsibility. The text development department asked me a month or two ago (I don't even recall when!) if we could stop producing new Libronix-compatible files at the end of 2011, and after hearing all the reasons and expenses, I agreed.

I personally failed to think through all the implications, failed to map "end of this year" to "Christmas special season", and I didn't assign anyone to coordinate communications.

This is my failure, and I'm sorry.

So word did filter through the organization, and people did the things that made sense (like removing the links to the Libronix files in emails, web pages, etc.) but nobody put together a plan. Some things were unanticipated consequences: we are only ending development of new resources in Libronix format, not retiring or hiding existing ones, but the system that shows download information after a purchase is only technically able to show one set of instructions -- it wasn't coded to show different instructions for different books -- so someone went ahead and just stripped Libronix download information out of all the communications, because it wouldn't work for the new releases.

We should have handled the communication better, and provided advance notice. I apologize for this failure.

Some clarification:

- We haven't disabled or taken anything away. While I understand the emotional feeling you may have about this if you hate Logos 4 (or can't run it for some reason), this isn't some sort of theft or betrayal. We provided what you bought. You've been using it for years. It still works today. It even still works in the future, (which is more than you can say for lots of other software after a new version has been released). You have the files we sold you. (Libronix wasn't even sold with a cloud model, so we never promised cloud access to Libronix-format books. None the less, you still have it -- we haven't taken down the FTP site, and have no plans to.)

- We aren't "killing" support, we're just moving the web pages to an archive to avoid confusion for the vast majority of our users, who don't know what Libronix is and found those articles in the way. We're not training new customer service agents in Libronix, but we're not firing the existing team that does know it. We were answering questions about Logos v1.6 (from 1993) and the LLS (1995) till just recently.

- Our cloud-connected Logos 4 works offline, as we have well documented and described. This is much more secure and "back-up-able" than most cloud solutions, which are truly in the cloud and truly inaccessible if the server goes offline. Logos could go dark, and you can run what's on your system. You can use your own local tools to back up your books, your license file, your documents, etc. Back up your system, and run Logos in offline mode, and you're fine indefinitely.

- Your Libronix install, files, and keys need the server even less. So nothing we do -- up to and including going out of business or having our offices wiped out by a tsunami -- takes that away from you. Yes, you need to back up your files rather than counting on an easy download link from the archived orders page. But A) that's the way it was and is with older software -- nothing new, and B) we aren't taking down the FTP server. You can still get the files.

Time marches on, and technology does as well. I can understand the surprise, and agree we should have communicated the plan in advance. But I think the "I'm going to return everything I ever bought!" and "I've been betrayed!" sentiments are a bit harsh.

Do you expect all software to be supported as-is forever? That every new release will never take away or change anything from the previous? That all new products will be compatible with older products for all time?

Even if you love, love, love Windows XP, when Microsoft announces that some new product will require Vista or later, do you demand a refund of the purchase of your still functioning XP installation? When Apple switched operating systems, and then processors, did you demand a refund for everything you'd bought for OS 9 or Motorola or PowerPC processors? 

Really -- is that fair? We haven't disabled what you bought from us. We don't even disable it if you upgrade to the (free) Logos 4 engine -- they run side-by-side! Which is more than you can say for an OS upgrade... The only thing that changed is that we aren't releasing new products for the old platform. (That we did for more than two years actually seems unusual to me.)

With that said, we don't want anyone to feel cheated. We haven't changed our returns policy. If you ordered a pre-pub that shipped in the last week Logos-4-only when you were expecting Libronix, of course we can refund that. If you have outstanding pre-pubs that haven't shipped, you may want to cancel them.

Again, I apologize for the poor communication. I will create a new post explaining our future plans to help prevent this from happening again around Logos 5 and beyond. 

-- Bob

 

 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 12:24 PM

Whew, that was close.  Obviously Bob's team gets on it when a decision gets made.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 226
Kurt Trucksess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 12:36 PM

Bob, Thanks for the reply.  What you said is what I understood from your original announcement but it seems others had a different impression. Thanks for taking the time, on a Saturday, to clarify. 

Dr. Kurt Trucksess www.christ2Rculture.com
Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 12:53 PM

A more positive spin is that this is an opportunity to participate in a larger and much more important event...Management's vision of what bible software should be. 

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 12:54 PM

ST and others here:

This announcement has created significant anxiety for those using Libronix.... and due to the fact that probably most L4 users may be unaware of the issues, awakened many fears about the security of their own purchases and libraries.

For my part, I signed on back in LLS days or before... and just mindlessly upgraded to the new versions as time went on. I don't recall if I ever paid for an upgrade (well, no wait... I seem to recall a $69 crossover upgrade that I paid). But I am assuming (from my library list) that all of the resources I had purchased back in the beginning days are still being accessed in L4.

>SECTION DELETED DUE TO GREAT CLARIFICATION FROM BOB... SECTION NO LONGER PERTINENT. AS EXPECTED, GOOD INTENTIONS AND INNOCENT MISTAKE ON LOGOS PART. TRUST THEY WILL MAKE IT RIGHT!<

But here's what I wonder if I could ask some of you more experienced users to do.... We are all terrified of losing access to our libraries. Some because of where we are located and Internet access stinks. Some because of being burned in the past. Some because we've seen even the best of companies suddenly implode and vanish. WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO EXPLAIN IN SIMPLE (VERY SIMPLE, NON-COMPUTER GEEK LANGUAGE) FOR THE REST OF US... what the basic issues are, what kind of scenarios do we need to prepare for, and step by step, how can we best ensure the security of our investments (knowing there is no fail safe method) in the event of a company melt down (like say Bob and all the other senior management at Logos get hit by a wildly careening out-of-control Bellingham bus while crossing the street at the same time after a joint Starbuck's break), a company sale which may NOT include continuing support (or support in a form that we would not want to take up), or in the event that some of us (due to age or declining financial resources) can't keep up with buying upgrades or learning new versions (I'm STILL struggling to learn L4... not sure how easily I'll be able to do that again in 10 or 20 years), or can't afford to make (the probably inevitable) system upgrades to run future versions, and will need to stick with older hardware?

Please, this is a really significant concern for many of us, and we need your help, brothers (and sisters), to make wise decisions and to properly prepare. Will you help us? Us non-techies probably will need some gentle hand holding here as you guide us on the right path. I've lost a life library before (dead tree version) of more than 10,000 volumes (for which I never received Logos discounts, so there was nothing padded or bundled there, and it was a WHOPPING investment over a whole lot of years... and from which I will never be able to fully recover, as it included all of my life's study and ministry notes), so I'm a bit sensitive about this and can too easily freak out in threads such as these.

(trying not to hyperventilate Tongue Tied )

Posts 1632
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 12:58 PM

Bob Pritchett:
We were answering questions about Logos v1.6 (from 1993) and the LLS (1995) till just recently.

What?? You quietly discontinued support for v1.6 and LLS?  I can't believe that!

Just kidding! Wink

Thanks, Bob, for your detailed reply as always, and God bless you my brother!

Peter

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 1:27 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Whoa! Let's all just calm down for a moment...  Please don't return all your software or burn down our buildings at least until the weekend is over, and we can get our team together in a room! :-)

First: I'm very sorry for the surprise of this. I take full responsibility. The text development department asked me a month or two ago (I don't even recall when!) if we could stop producing new Libronix-compatible files at the end of 2011, and after hearing all the reasons and expenses, I agreed.

I personally failed to think through all the implications, failed to map "end of this year" to "Christmas special season", and I didn't assign anyone to coordinate communications.

This is my failure, and I'm sorry.

So word did filter through the organization, and people did the things that made sense (like removing the links to the Libronix files in emails, web pages, etc.) but nobody put together a plan. Some things were unanticipated consequences: we are only ending development of new resources in Libronix format, not retiring or hiding existing ones, but the system that shows download information after a purchase is only technically able to show one set of instructions -- it wasn't coded to show different instructions for different books -- so someone went ahead and just stripped Libronix download information out of all the communications, because it wouldn't work for the new releases.

We should have handled the communication better, and provided advance notice. I apologize for this failure.

Some clarification:

- We haven't disabled or taken anything away. While I understand the emotional feeling you may have about this if you hate Logos 4 (or can't run it for some reason), this isn't some sort of theft or betrayal. We provided what you bought. You've been using it for years. It still works today. It even still works in the future, (which is more than you can say for lots of other software after a new version has been released). You have the files we sold you. (Libronix wasn't even sold with a cloud model, so we never promised cloud access to Libronix-format books. None the less, you still have it -- we haven't taken down the FTP site, and have no plans to.)

- We aren't "killing" support, we're just moving the web pages to an archive to avoid confusion for the vast majority of our users, who don't know what Libronix is and found those articles in the way. We're not training new customer service agents in Libronix, but we're not firing the existing team that does know it. We were answering questions about Logos v1.6 (from 1993) and the LLS (1995) till just recently.

- Our cloud-connected Logos 4 works offline, as we have well documented and described. This is much more secure and "back-up-able" than most cloud solutions, which are truly in the cloud and truly inaccessible if the server goes offline. Logos could go dark, and you can run what's on your system. You can use your own local tools to back up your books, your license file, your documents, etc. Back up your system, and run Logos in offline mode, and you're fine indefinitely.

- Your Libronix install, files, and keys need the server even less. So nothing we do -- up to and including going out of business or having our offices wiped out by a tsunami -- takes that away from you. Yes, you need to back up your files rather than counting on an easy download link from the archived orders page. But A) that's the way it was and is with older software -- nothing new, and B) we aren't taking down the FTP server. You can still get the files.

Time marches on, and technology does as well. I can understand the surprise, and agree we should have communicated the plan in advance. But I think the "I'm going to return everything I ever bought!" and "I've been betrayed!" sentiments are a bit harsh.

Do you expect all software to be supported as-is forever? That every new release will never take away or change anything from the previous? That all new products will be compatible with older products for all time?

Even if you love, love, love Windows XP, when Microsoft announces that some new product will require Vista or later, do you demand a refund of the purchase of your still functioning XP installation? When Apple switched operating systems, and then processors, did you demand a refund for everything you'd bought for OS 9 or Motorola or PowerPC processors? 

Really -- is that fair? We haven't disabled what you bought from us. We don't even disable it if you upgrade to the (free) Logos 4 engine -- they run side-by-side! Which is more than you can say for an OS upgrade... The only thing that changed is that we aren't releasing new products for the old platform. (That we did for more than two years actually seems unusual to me.)

With that said, we don't want anyone to feel cheated. We haven't changed our returns policy. If you ordered a pre-pub that shipped in the last week Logos-4-only when you were expecting Libronix, of course we can refund that. If you have outstanding pre-pubs that haven't shipped, you may want to cancel them.

Again, I apologize for the poor communication. I will create a new post explaining our future plans to help prevent this from happening again around Logos 5 and beyond. 

-- Bob

Thanks Bob for your response.  I think most of us would be happy to be able to download/update our current L3 files one last time.

 

 

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 1:27 PM

YAY BOB!!!! Great clarification! I'm so glad to hear it was as I suspected, just an understandable oversight, and you took ownership of that and the communications issues... things often happen innocently and with good intent... and there is almost always a non-sinister explanation. Thanks for providing that. I agree with the step you are making (not that you need my approval, its your company after all Wink ), even while I understand some of the concerns from some users, but as I wrote, I trust you'll make it right. I appreciate that about you and Logos very much.

My request still remains, however... could some of you elder brothers and sisters (in terms of computer and Logos knowledge) help give the rest of us a little peace of mind and advise us a bit step by step on how we can protect our investments as much as possible (in terms we can understand)? It really would be a very great service!!!

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