Gen. 1:27
Comments
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Silver Hawk said:Super Tramp said:
I bet you could misquote Jesus too.
Super Tramp said:My personal definition of "God" includes attributes of sinlessness, an inability to cease existence, a purveying intimacy with all his creation, the might to create, sustain, and destroy anything, and recreate all over again, and finally, the ability to experience emotion without losing control of his actions.
Sir, These are your words, posted on this very page, less than one hour apart. How can you possibly attempt to claim that you have been misquoted?Super Tramp said:I could never define the true and living Almighty God.
You are a poor reader, my friend. The first quote was speaking philosophically, the second quote theologically. I am sorry you are having difficulty following.The others seem to have understood and responded relevantly. I suggest Norman Geisler's collections in Logos or watching some Youtube videos of Ravi Zacharias.
Norman L. Geisler Collection (14 vols.)
The Norman L. Geisler Apologetics Library (13 vols.)
http://www.rzim.org/default.aspx
Would you not agree with my quote "I could never define the true and living Almighty God"?
My second quote pretty much proves I can't do it.
Or will you argue my words accomplished a valid definition in your eyes?
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MJ. Smith said:
Factual statement: In the order to which Thomas Aquinas belonged (the Dominicans), one must complete a degree in philosophy before beginning your theological studies.
You reminded me of what else I wanted to add to my last post. [:)]
By wisdom, and thus philosophy, I am much more speaking of hhokhmaah חָכְמָה as opposed to sophia σοφία. Not that I think the mechanics of the two are different, for they are essentially identical in that respect. In fact, sophia is developed in such an analytical way that it provides insight that hhokmaah does not. But the developmental and historical concepts of the two words is nevertheless significantly disparate. The Greek idea of wisdom is not the Hebrew idea of wisdom. By Hebrew, I am intending a Biblical concept, not a Judaistic one. Reason being, Judaism as a thought field may have outwardly developed in reaction against Hellenism, but it nevertheless was greatly affected by immersion in that pervasive Greek culture of that time.
Perhaps a clearer and more direct way of saying it would be that I am specifically referring to a Biblical and thus Godly concept of wisdom, one based primarily if not absolutely wholey on revelation. Greek thought, as well as Rabbinic, rely far too much on faulty (some say human) reasoning in their development of so-called wisdom.
Another way of saying it would be, "not all wisdom is the same".
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Silver Hawk said:
Seeker might be a better word.
OT: I have never met a philosopher who was not a seeker. Unfortunately, I have read some theologians who certainly were not ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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You make 2 unsubstantiated assumptions.Super Tramp said:You are a poor reader, my friend.
1) That I am a poor reader.
2) That I am your friend.
There are 6 posters on the page. 2 have challenged you on your inconsistency. 3 have neither affirmed nor denied . Sorry that does not give you overwhelming support for your position.Super Tramp said:The others seem to have understood
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MJ. Smith said:
Factual statement: In the order to which Thomas Aquinas belonged (the Dominicans), one must complete a degree in philosophy before beginning your theological studies.
Factual statement: An old Kansas preacher friend had a good response to the dismissive statement others would quote about "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Preacher would then quip, "But you can put salt in his oats."
I would imagine the Aquinas and friends were required to study philosophy first so they could ask the right questions when they got to theology. The world is very adept at diagnosing the problems of mankind. They have difficulty offering the effective remedy.
One thing missionaries in non-western outposts have to deal with is defining sin to the unbelievers. If the prospect does not know they have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of a just God, they will see no need to seek a remedy or repent. The first step is to convince them of their need. After they know they need a savior, they are more apt to consider the Gospel message.
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Silver Hawk said:
You make 2 unsubstantiated assumptions.Super Tramp said:You are a poor reader, my friend.
1) That I am a poor reader.
2) That I am your friend
OK, I will grant you doubt on the second issue but you have undoubtedly confirmed my first. I would suggest you read my last answer to you a second time but I am afraid you will confuse yourself doubly.
[8]Goodbye Stranger, it's been nice, hope you find your paradise, tried to see your point of view, hope your dreams will all come true..... [8]
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James 3:13-18David Paul said:"not all wisdom is the same".
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There are plenty of things we can know absolutely about God while at the same time not fully understanding such things. Two such things are: God is eternal and omnipresent. I know what this means I just can't fully comprehend how something can have no beginning or how something can be infinitely present. However, that doesn't matter to me. I believe it because God has revealed this knowledge to us in His Word.
My definition of absolute nothingness is: non-existence. I have stated this a couple times already. It is very simple and obviously true irrespective of philosophical mindset. Absolute nothing means just that...no substance, no energy, no space, no darkness, no existence. In fact, it is impossible to even imagine true nothingness.
If God created "out of nothing" does this not directly contradict the idea that God is infinitely present? Existence is an absolute state which God fully occupies and sustains eternally. How can something be added to this infinite and perpetual state?
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Silver Hawk said:
There are 6 posters on the page. 2 have challenged you on your inconsistency. 3 have neither affirmed nor denied . Sorry that does not give you overwhelming support for your position.
The freedom I enjoy from not caring how many will agree with me gives me more joy than the discussion itself. I am not debating or proselytizing, or running for office. I laid out my point, I defined the field, I adjusted the semantics. Then I had a very good time. My Logos library is full of interesting books where men are not afraid to ask the "what ifs" of God. I kind of think God likes to watch men try and figure Him out.
I recognize reality enough to know you and I are in no danger of becoming "wiseguys." One second after death, all my worldly learning will be a Dandelion puff floating away into the "nothingness" that Joshua G says does not exist. [C]
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If those words define your position, Do these words from the same song also define you?Super Tramp said:
Goodbye Stranger, it's been nice, hope you find your paradise, tried to see your point of view, hope your dreams will all come true..... Now I believe in what you say
Is the undisputed truth
But I have to have things my own way
To keep me in my youth0 -
Joshua G said:
There are plenty of things we can know absolutely about God while at the same time not fully understanding such things. Two such things are: God is eternal and omnipresent. I know what this means I just can't fully comprehend how something can have no beginning or how something can be infinitely present. However, that doesn't matter to me. I believe it because God has revealed this knowledge to us in His Word.
My definition of absolute nothingness is: non-existence. I have stated this a couple times already. It is very simple and obviously true irrespective of philosophical mindset. Absolute nothing means just that...no substance, no energy, no space, no darkness, no existence. In fact, it is impossible to even imagine true nothingness.
If God created "out of nothing" does this not directly contradict the idea that God is infinitely present? Existence is an absolute state which God fully occupies and sustains eternally. How can something be added to this infinite and perpetual state?
If I were to rely on "pure logic", I might be able to agree with you here on principle. Your case sounds pretty good...it even has an element of deep thoughtfulness. However, because I base my reason and philosophy on revelation AND logic, I am forced to ask: What do you say to Job 26:7??
Are you sure you believe there is NO "nothing"?
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David Paul said:
If I were to rely on "pure logic", I might be able to agree with you here on principle. Your case sounds pretty good...it even has an element of deep thoughtfulness. However, because I base my reason and philosophy on revelation AND logic, I am forced to ask: What do you say to Job 26:7??
Are you sure you believe there is NO "nothing"?
I believe my definition of nothing fits well here actually (though I am concerned about existence in my previous post). The verse is not attempting to say that "nothing" exists, rather it is affirming that "nothing" is truly nothing.
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The concept of nothing exists, although nothing "itself" does not. While the Earth may be suspended by nothing, this does not mean that "nothing" suspends the Earth.
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Goodbye Stranger is a song from the perspective of a free spirit that cheerfully allows the opinions of others to dissapate like water off a duck's back. His words to his critics are rather kind. He agrees with them, ignores their condemnation, and moves on whistling. [8]Silver Hawk said:Do these words from the same song also define you?
That would pretty much sum up my reaction to criticism. I am convinced that you are convinced that you are right. And I won't be unhappy with you continuing to think that you are. Another Supertramp song has these lines:
You cannot make me listen, I cannot make you hear
You find your way to heaven, I'll meet you when you're there.
How can you live in this way? You must have something to say.
We have no reason to fight, 'cos we both know that we're right. [;)]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I hate to be the one to break it to you, Your Dandelion Puff floated away prematurely.[quoteSuper Tramp said:One second after death, all my worldly learning will be a Dandelion puff floating away into the "nothingness" that Joshua G says does not exist.
user="Schezic"]
I
[quote
user="Super Tramp"]Would you not use it as an excuse to
sample the cocaine based pharmaceuticals Jesus created?
seriously doubt that Jesus created the drug. You said recently that
your basket of apologies was almost empty and no one believed you
anymore. Could statements like this be why?
Of
course I will pray for your medical problems, as well as
your emotional ones.
Strange, You quote way more super tramp songs than Scripture. If that is where you choose to find your theology/philosophy, I will grant you the right to be wrong.Super Tramp said:Another Supertramp song has these lines:
You cannot make me listen, I cannot make you hear
You find your way to heaven, I'll meet you when you're there.
How can you live in this way? You must have something to say.
We have no reason to fight, 'cos we both know that we're right.0 -
Schezic said:
Your Dandelion Puff floated away prematurely
Not to worry, nothing happens pre-maturely in God's timing.
I guess the seeds have gone out to reproduce. Great concept.
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Joshua G said:
The concept of nothing exists, although nothing "itself" does not. While the Earth may be suspended by nothing, this does not mean that "nothing" suspends the Earth.
On one level, that is the distinction I wanted you to see. But I have a deeper question--What if YHWH Himself IS "nothing"?? You said:
Joshua G said:My definition of absolute nothingness is: non-existence. I have stated this a couple times already. It is very simple and obviously true irrespective of philosophical mindset. Absolute nothing means just that...no substance, no energy, no space, no darkness, no existence. In fact, it is impossible to even imagine true nothingness.
Notice two passages: first, Isa. 41:11-12, where the ones who can't be found because they become "nothing and non-existent" are primarily the Anti-Messiah and those who follow the strong delusion, and more broadly Satan also. What of this?
Think that one is a head-scratcher? Then what about Amos 6:8-14??? This one will melt your circuits! Notice especially Am. 6:10...this is really "something" (pun intended). "
10 Then one’s 1uncle, or his 2undertaker, will lift him up to carry out his bones from the house, and he will say to the one who is in the innermost part of the house, “Is anyone else with you?” And that one will say, “No one.” Then he will 3answer, “Keep quiet. For 4the name of the Lord is not to be mentioned.” (!!!)
1 Or beloved one 2 Lit one who burns him 3 Lit say 4 Lit not to make mention of the name of(NASB)Then, just a couple of verses later, notice what it says in Amos 6:13...remembering that this is PROPHECY...it is NOT intended to be perceived ultimately as historical, even if it is.
13 You who rejoice in 1Lodebar, 2and say, “Have we not by our own strength taken 3Karnaim for ourselves?”1 Lit a thing of nothing 2 Lit Who 3 Lit a pair of horns (NASB)Historically, commentators say these were two cities (Lodebar & Karmaim) that Israel had conquered, and that may well be so, but again, within this same context is another context, the PROPHETIC CONTEXT, not the historical. There is a different but clear progression taking place. I don't want to necessarily get into the whole broad sweep, but looking at just Lodebar, notice how it fits with v. 10, earlier. In Amos 6:10 the reply that "no one" is within is met with the reply "keep quiet, do not mention the name of YHWH". Israel, just a couple of verses later, gloats in victory over a town called "a thing of nothing". This is intended to be recognized prophetically as being a victory of Israel (in their collective mind) over YHWH Himself, who is marginalized with the epithet "a thing of nothing". As a result, Israel's other gloating victory over a town called "two horns" (or "double strength") is prophetically mocked in Amos 6:14 as being eventually overthrown by a "nation" which is prophetically lead by none other than the "little horn" of Dan. 7 & 8, the Anti-Messiah.
The point of all that isn't to convey the prophecy as much as to convey the idea that YHWH is called "a thing of nothing" on the one hand...and just the name Lodebar, presents a bit of a challenge to your comments about "nothing". If YHWH is "a thing of nothing" (and He seems to choose to "own" this epithet in other contexts), then your assertion that saying " 'nothing' suspends the earth is false" is undone.
I hope I made that clear enough...I realize it is a little intricate. [8-|]
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Schezic said:
You quote way more super tramp songs than Scripture.
I'm surprised you don't see the parallels with the teachings of Jesus. Christ criticized the Pharisees for thinking their own works, knowledge and righteousness would save them. Supertramp only points out the same self-righteousness in judgmental people and acknowledges their own spiritual insufficiency.
I do not worship Supertramp and I do not worship Dandelions. But I am frequently reminded of my Creator God by encounters with both. Most things in my life remind me of something God has said or done. He is just too HERE to be ignored. Knowing He loves me makes nothing else matter. [:D]
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I'll leave you with one final thought. Possibly your hat's too tight. Study On. ...God Bless.
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Btw, for what it's worth, this verse, Am. 6:10, may be a big part of why the later leaders (the Pharisees and Rabbis) decided not to pronounce the tetragrammation, YHWH. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), it isn't intended as a direct negative command, it is intended as a prophetic explanation of Israel's bizarre idolatry and rejection of YHWH. Here YHWH is picturing Israel's behavior and attitude in a severely mocking tone, and Israel, in one of the greatest ironies of all time, turns it into a dreadful self-fulfilling prophecy. Even so, in a way, it is YHWH's way of protecting His name from vanity, and assuring that the pearl of His Name in not thrown before swine, so to speak.
This isn't the only time YHWH uses this kind of prophetic language to create a situation where Israel's (and the Church's) response is self-comdemning self-fulfilling prophecy. He does it in Gen. 48, Isa. 29, and in Job 5, just to name three examples.
Boaz clearly used the Name when greeting others and they returned the greeting (Ruth 2:4), so NOT saying the name is obviously not the original intention of YHWH.
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Schezic said:
I'll leave you with one final thought. Possibly your hat's too tight. Study On. ...God Bless.
All I feel is big brother Jesus squeezing me affectionately in a headlock. We wrestle but he always wins. I am content to go to Heaven without knowing all things before I get there. The only thing that matters is already settled. And I will probably get there before the rest of you. [O]
btw: Hey Logos, when I pass, I leave my Logos licenses to my wife Nina. Does that count in probate court? Hope so. I haven't written a will since the December sales.[W]
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OK, just one more final thought.Super Tramp said:I am content to go to Heaven without knowing all things before I get there. The only thing that matters is already settled. And I will probably get there before the rest of you.
btw: Hey Logos, when I pass, I leave my Logos licenses to my wife Nina.0 -
>>>Two such things are: God is eternal and omnipresent.
Um, neither of these are scriptural notions. They both arise from the Greek philosophers. While there are scriptures that people cite to prop up the philosopher's ideas, the scriptures do not assert these notions about Elohym/Jehovah, the manlike deity who lives in royal chambers just above the sky ceiling located one skyscraper-height above the dry land in the middle east. If he receives news of grievous misbehavior from one of his aides, he has to come down to look around for himself. He consults his friend. He forms man into a statue of himself, but forgets that he'll need an assistant, too. They disappoint him by listening to a talking animal and he damns them and all of their descendents by barring them from the magic tree that they need to not die. But they eat the other magic tree and he regrets having made them. Soon he's so angry that he not only kills the human race but everything that can't breathe water. But, one guy impresses him, so he spares him by having spend a 100 years building a boat and after the execution of all but 8 people and representatives of the animals, he smells the delicious rack of lamb cooking in his favorite guy's oven (that he was cooking just for Jehovah) and he now regrets having wreaked so much havoc in his rage. So he hangs up his beautiful multi-hued bow and arrows in the sky and writes on the black board, one hundred times:
"I will not get upset and go on a rampage." "I will not get upset and go on a rampage." "I will not get upset and go on a rampage." "I will not get upset and go on a rampage."
When people walk more than a certain distance on a Saturday, he snaps the rubberband on his wrist and looks at the bow and resists his urges. He finds a workaround... "Fire"!
This is not the deity of the philosophers - the stoic, passionless, all-wise, all-powerful, all-present, all-knowing deity that exists in no form, in no place and micro-manages every aspect of everything from end to end with an inviolable will. If you like that deity better, then you should not be reading Jewish scriptures!
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WoundedEgo said:
>>>Two such things are: God is eternal and omnipresent.
You quote Joshua G here and then proceed with an attempt to disprove him with a folksy rendition of the Flood. Your tactic does nothing to support your attempt. To rely on belief in the Scriptures to build an argument against the reliability of the Scriptures is not going to succeed.
It is possible that today my daughter baked blueberry muffins for breakfast. You can write a documentary about her using the generalized statement that she always bakes blueberry muffins for breakfast on Saturday. You may be right, or you may be wrong. Taking one fact and extrapolating it is an unreliable way to determine the attributes of someone.
Doing a search of Logos resources for "attributes of God" will give you a long list of works by many great scholars who searched the Scriptures deep and wide to discover the attributes of this God of the Bible. Most (all?) of them came to know this God in a real and personal way.
Scripture does reveal He is eternal and omnipresent. It reveals a lot more about Him. Telling a short account from the Scriptures in a folksy way may entertain a group but it proves absolutely nothing.
(There Joshua, WoundedEgo has proved nothing! [;)] That has got to count for something!)
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>>>To rely on belief in the Scriptures to build an argument against the reliability of the Scriptures is not going to succeed.
>>>Scripture does reveal He is eternal and omnipresent. It reveals a lot more about Him. Telling a short account from the Scriptures in a folksy way may entertain a group but it proves absolutely nothing.
First of all, I do hope the group was entertained. When I type, I pretend I'm Scott Joplin, banging on the ivories.
Second of all, I don't believe that, properly understood, the scriptures define Yehovah as the theologians carry on.
So, I've showed you a host of depictions of "the god of Israel" from scripture. Where in scripture do you see the passionless micro-manager of the philosophers and theologians, who never learns anything? I said nothing about the reliability of scripture, I was merely doing a study in contrast between the philosophers/theologians and Moses.
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Wounded Ego, up until now I have purposefully not responded to you, mainly because your posts were....off. Something just didn't seem right. But now I see--you are just a crank who has wandered in here in order to cause commotion...an oh-so slightly creative flamer. Please go away.
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You mean like this one?Super Tramp said:Telling a short account from the Scriptures in a folksy way may entertain a group but it proves absolutely nothing.
Super Tramp said:One of my favorites is Moses versus Pharaoh's magicians. Moses casts down the "rod of God" (a prop) and it turns into a serpent (a miracle outside the laws of nature.) Quite impressive! But the magicians can apparently reproduce (at least in appearance) this "miracle." The trump card is played when God's serpent swallows up the magicians serpents, and they are no more. Show is over, Moses takes up the rod of God and leaves. The magicians are standing around without their magic sticks. Their's have gone into the "nothingness" that truly exists, outside of our existence. I can sit and wonder how the magicians pulled off the miracle of changing their sticks into serpents, or I can marvel and rejoice that my God is sovereign over all. It isn't difficult to comprehend that kind of a god creating something out of nothing.
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My recounting of the story is actually an example of the sovereignty of God (one of many) Whereas WoundedEgo's choice of story had absolutely nothing to do with the point he was claiming, namely, that God is neither eternal, nor omnipresent. The Bible records words attributed to God that claim He is both eternal and omnipresent, (and omniscient and omnipotent too.) If WounhdedEgo believes the Scriptures are truth ("reliable" is not necessarily 100% true) then it is easy to prove those attributes apply to God. If WoundedEgo does not believe the Scriptures, nothing you or I say will convince him of the truth.[;)]
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David Paul said:
On one level, that is the distinction I wanted you to see. But I have a deeper question--What if YHWH Himself IS "nothing"?? You said:
On the contrary, I believe God is the exact opposite.
David Paul said:The point of all that isn't to convey the prophecy as much as to convey the idea that YHWH is called "a thing of nothing" on the one hand...and just the name Lodebar, presents a bit of a challenge to your comments about "nothing". If YHWH is "a thing of nothing" (and He seems to choose to "own" this epithet in other contexts), then your assertion that saying " 'nothing' suspends the earth is false" is undone.
I don't agree with your interpretation of context. God clearly exists.
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The past tense "created" in His image carries with it the common belief that Adam was 'perfect' and 'fell' through disobedience because of mankind's so called free will.
"Creating" is a much better translation because it denotes God's purpose in the on going development of man into the full measure of the stature of Jesus Christ at the end of the ages, in complete subjection 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
God cannot be righteous and impute guilt to another because of someone else's disobedience/sin. Man sinned by God's design because they were not given complete knowledge of good and evil so it was inevitable man would "miss the mark" , make mistakes/sin Romans 11:32 " For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so that He can have mercy on everyone ".
Do you think God couldn't have "created " man in His image at the outset , incapable of sinning as He is . Between man and God it is God alone who has free will . Only a fool would dispute that God has free will and He never sins/makes mistakes, because He is all knowing. Therefore to say God couldn't have made man incapable of sinning but had to give man free will or he would be a robot incapable of knowing true love is ludicrous because God has free will, is incapable of sinning and is Love.
God has designed man to progress through evil, suffering , tribulation and good to form them into His purified glorified purpose.
Ecclesiastes 1:13 " It is an experience of evil (ra) Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it ".
I don't want to write a novel detailing the above , so i suggest reading A P Adams ' the Spirit of the Word ' or You Tube channels The Total Victory of Christ or Tommy's Truth Talk where one can learn the true Gospel message and gain links to scholars/theologians who understand God's plan of the ages.
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Nev Billett said:
God cannot
Welcome to the forums. Did you notice that you have resurrected a thread from nine years ago ... and responded to a delightful forum user who has been dead for several years?
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I wish Vincent was still around.
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MJ, given the content of the forum guidelines to which you asked the poster Nev Billet to abide - specifically, its proscription against discussions of "biblical, theological, or other controversial subjects" - isn't most of this thread, including several of your own contributions to it, in violation of them? That is, isn't it about five pages of posts too late to advise posters, including yourself, not to discuss what you've been discussing?
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MJ, although I personally think you do a great job on this forum and balancing everything (at least in my opinion), you did come across unnecessarily harsh to a new member on their first post. Not at all endorsing their point of view or am I disputing that they stepped outside of forum guidelines regarding theology discussions.
- Is there an expiration date for an old thread? Isn’t it actually encouraged in the guidelines to search a topic before you start a new thread?
- Is there any way the new member could have known about the other member passing?
Seemed a little flagrant to respond the way you did. I apologize if I am misinterpretIns your tone but if you read it through the eyes of a new member on their first post and the “welcome to the forum” you may see how it came across.
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Bill Coley said:
MJ, given the content of the forum guidelines to which you asked the poster Nev Billet to abide - specifically, its proscription against discussions of "biblical, theological, or other controversial subjects" - isn't most of this thread, including several of your own contributions to it, in violation of them? That is, isn't it about five pages of posts too late to advise posters, including yourself, not to discuss what you've been discussing?
In MJ's defense, this thread goes way back, and though I think there had been some pushback against theological discussions at the time, I don't think it had gelled into the current status quo quite yet. I don't see anything wrong about letting a newbie know that the ways of yesteryear are no longer the ways of today.
As far as Greg's comment is concerned, yeah, a newbie couldn't know SuperTramp was no longer with us. Again, I think she was just pointing out that reviving very old threads isn't necessarily the most productive way to engage a new (to the user) forum. I suspect that Nev did a search on a topic that popped this old thread into the results. Nev might well be a one-and-gone participant. It's probably for the best, because there are at least a couple of comments she made that seem dubious to me, and I was reaching for my bear gun. [A]
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David Paul said:
In MJ's defense, this thread goes way back, and though I think there had been some pushback against theological discussions at the time, I don't think it had gelled into the current status quo quite yet. I don't see anything wrong about letting a newbie know that the ways of yesteryear are no longer the ways of today.
I take your point, David; thanks.
MJ, I withdraw my commentary about the content of this thread and your role in its creation. Perhaps a note to Nev Billet that identified the evolution of the forums' expectations regarding theological discussions since this thread's birth would have been a helpful addition to your response (though, apparently I would have missed that note, too!)
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Greg Dement said:
but if you read it through the eyes of a new member on their first post and the “welcome to the forum” you may see how it came across.
I take your point under advisement ... but it is a stretch for me to understand how it came across to you; it is not how I have come to expect people to respond. It is my experience that in forums that do not explicitly close threads, that there is an informal understanding that one doesn't go back at least 4 versions of the software (2 year cycle) to make comments... although people occasionally do so for a "do you remember" walk down memory lane.
Greg Dement said:- Is there any way the new member could have known about the other member passing?
Of course not, I was illustrating how reviving the thread revived memories, not the topic -- I mean, seriously, who is going to read through 8 pages of posts to orient themselves in a 9 year old thread? And given that it is more likely they got to the thread via a search rather than through the forums, it seemed to me and orientation to the forums as about software and resources was in order - not as a reprimand but as an orientation of what they have stepped into.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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