Why I am starting to hate this software

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This post has 123 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 451
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 7:51 AM

Alan Charles Gielczyk:

I understand all the frustration BUT, we have all been pestering Logos for notes and highlighting on our mobile devices for almost two years now and we finally have it. That said it comes at a price, the syncing to keep every platform in line with each other takes time. There are trade offs for every feature we all want so I just want to speak up and say thank you Logos for putting up with all of us and still trying to make all our desired features a reality!

This is good perspective to keep, but at the same time these features do not necessarily mean performance should take this much of a hit.I guarantee you that there's still of a lot of architectural changes and code optimization that can be done to L4, it's just a matter of prioritizing that over new features.

My take on it is that Logos 4 is still relatively new in terms of powerful commercial software (think Photoshop, Office, AutoCAD, etc.). I realize Logos as a company has been around for a while but L4 is a ground-up rewrite, and in my experience complex, powerful applications tend to take about 5 years to reach full stability and optimization (Aperture is a great example of this). So while I'm often frustrated with the state of Logos now, I still have hope that things will get significantly better as the application matures.

With that said, we should also note that this won't happen if feature bloat becomes more of a development priority than optimization. It's good to keep bringing up these stability and performance issues (in a respectful and patient manner) because it keeps the pressure on Bob and the team to focus on optimization and stability before adding cool new features.

It looks like we're getting towards the end of a major development cycle that's revolved around synchronization and feature parity for the Mac version, so hopefully the next round of updates will focus on performance and stability.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 7:52 AM

Paul Clarke:
Shawn Drewett:
I visit India frequently and they wish they COULD wait in line for items. 
Come to the UK.  We just love a good queue. Cool 

Big Smile  Cracking me up here. I like the little numbered tickets they use at the DMV *Department of Motor Vehicles 

Now I am not anywhere near "hating" this software but I have a few observations.

  • I have heard others (smarter people than me) say that updates do not index. If that is true, I am fine with keeping auto updates turned on.
  • I have asked myself if the free books offered frequently on Vyrso are worth the daily indexing that goes along with them.
  • Yes, the larger the library, the slower my performance. My netbook has run Logos 4 for over a year now. But my library has finally become too large for the netbook to keep up with.  I had to order a "real" laptop and am awaiting it's delivery.
  • My wife schedules her computer to update when she leaves for school. By the time she is home from class it is finished. As Rosie said, you could just update once a month if you are so inclined.
  • It is not necessary to shut Logos down every time you walk away from the computer. I leave mine open for days or weeks at a time.
  • One still could revert to Libronix 3.  Wink

Logos 4, offline use, manually update monthly.........not for me. It renders backup,syncing, multiple devices all useless.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:12 AM

Pastor Michael Huffman:
I love Logos and have been using it since 1997, but my fear is that when other software (i.e., BibleWorks) that already focus on original text, begin to add other resources, which is just a matter of time, Logos is going to start hurting for business. I am suprised that Logos as not already lost some Mac users to other software like accordance. They need to do something to make this software faster and more reliable. I simply refuse to download an update until I read the forums and 10 times out of 10, people are having difficulties and many times, it is the same problems all over again. So I usually run a couple of upgrades behind.

If anything, I think Accordance has probably lost business to Logos.  Originally Logos was PC only while Accordance handled the MAC.  All of the MAC users of Logos either were or could have been Accordance users (and some may use both programs.).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:17 AM

Shawn Drewett:

I always tell my wife that Wal-Mart will "go down" one day if they don't do something about the 15-20 minute check out times. You can get what you want there, but you WILL have to wait for it. I avoid WM if I can get the items I want elsewhere-even if I have to pay a bit more for them. Why do I mind waiting? Because I know I can check out quickly at the dollar store, so why waste time at WM? 

It may be a strange illustration but the point is "Logos needs to fix it's speed problem or they will lose business to faster software programs". 

The dollar store?  LOL !  I shop at the dollar store as well, but not for the same things as a WM.  When you can find a set of cookware or a pair of jeans at the dollar store, let me know.  BTW:  Perhaps you need to try a different WM since I don't usually wait 15 min to check out.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1848
Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:17 AM

I run the program on a Acer Netbook, I just it download and index in the evening when i know that I am not going to be using the program. Normally I do the updates at least one or twice a week.  I understand and know the performance issues of my computer and work with it, not against it.

I really do think sometimes we become our own worst enemy when we expect too much or expect it too soon, because we are not willing to work within the limits of ones computer system.I know the limitations of my Acer netbook. I know what having almost 8,000 resources does to it performance wise. So I have learned to adapt to what it can and cannot do.

Sometimes as I read the forums, I have this thought, If Jesus, himself developed a computer software system, to help one study the Word, there would be someone on this forum to complain about something, that Paul could have done it better.

Posts 3668
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:29 AM

Mark Stevens:

I still love this software but I must admit I have also noticed it is slower than usual and using more resources. Has anyone else noticed this?

Yes + 1

Especially at startup... And a goodly portion of that time is spent NOT starting up but synchronizing... I'd sure vote to go ahead & start it up & sync AFTER we can start using it. Don't delay us any more than it already does.

/end whine.

Stick out tongue

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 10307
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:30 AM

And let's not forget in an earlier thread that version 4.3 was given by God for our study of the Word (not sure about 4.5 or 4.5a).


Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:33 AM

Here are some stats...this is tested on a very fast 1 month old laptop, Sand Bridge 4 core/8 threads CPUs, 60Mbps/12Mbps Internet line, very fast SSD disk: This is also a version of Logos with over 11,000 resources.

Starting Logos -- With Use Internet and Automatic Updates turned on, it takes 23 seconds to hear the music start, and 31 seconds for the Home Page to be up.

With Use Internet and Automatic Updates turned off, it takes 4 seconds to hear the music start, and 9 seconds for the Home Page to be up. Huge difference!!

Logos must be doing a ton on the Internet at startup.  This was also with a system that was Sync'd, no updates were needed, etc. It had been up all morning, I just closed it down and started the test.

I would be willing to bet there can be some optimization of this by Logos, but in the interim if startup time drives you crazy TURN OFF Use Internet and Auto Updates until you need them.

Posts 48
GS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:42 AM

DMB:

Gregg ... at least your wife has good taste. I thought your comment was so funny, since two years ago, we compared L4 to a jag sitting in the garage.

I do think, though, that like the absence of good help files and manuals, a good set of company advice on what drags L4 vs makes it go would have been nice. Every time I see one of these threads, I wonder if Logos even has performance goals (computer-wise). It 'sounds' like the Beverly Hillbilly's (that's a compliment) where they just keep adding furniture on the little truck.

Amazingly, she's had the car since high school when she brought it new.  Besides the quirky electrics the other problem is getting OUT of the darn thing ... makes me realize I'm not as flexible (or as small) as I once was.  I'll stick to the motorcycle!

 

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:47 AM

Kenneth Neighoff:
I run the program on a Acer Netbook, I just it download and index in the evening when i know that I am not going to be using the program. Normally I do the updates at least one or twice a week.  I understand and know the performance issues of my computer and work with it, not against it.
You are correct about working within our computer's limitations.

My little netbook is an Acer Aspire One and has done satisfactorily all the past year. I just made the fatal flaw of turning off my computer while it was indexing. That action triggered a complete "first time indexing" of the whole library (10K+ resources.) I think it was 60+ hours of continuous indexing. I won't make that mistake again.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:51 AM

Gregg Shelton:
Amazingly, she's had the car since high school when she brought it new.  Besides the quirky electrics the other problem is getting OUT of the darn thing ... makes me realize I'm not as flexible (or as small) as I once was.  I'll stick to the motorcycle!

Just beware of the rapid exits from the bike going forward.  I was involved in one of those years ago; it was no fun.  Tongue Tied

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 888
Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 8:53 AM

Kenneth Neighoff:
Sometimes as I read the forums, I have this thought, If Jesus, himself developed a computer software system, to help one study the Word, there would be someone on this forum to complain about something, that Paul could have done it better.

That made me nod my head in agreement, chuckle out loud, then shake my head because its a crying shame  Zip it!

"I read dead people..."

Posts 5565
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 9:10 AM

Rosie Perera:
Though frankly much of what is discussed in them I consider voluntary crippling of the software.

Sure, but you could turn off what you don't, or what you rarely use. For example, the Information Pane is nice for some things, but I really don't need it, and find it a distraction. Even if I would want it open, I'd set it to "Click" rather than "Follow." I also reduce links to open panels, because I don't want everything scrolling along as I read. I don't want all my highlights showing either, since some of my highlights (which I should probably just delete) are old, experimental, or do too much (add too much color and not enough info) so that it's disruptive to the reading/studying process. And I only have tools open when I need them.

In this case, I'm speeding up Logos (albeit slightly), by disabling features I don't use, or find intrusive to the way I work.

As to how it should work, I have no comment, since I have no idea what it would take to make it work that way. Besides, I'll gladly take some performance hits, if Logos can finish delivery on other promised features that I'm eagerly anticipating (Sermon File Addin being a top contender).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 5565
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 9:18 AM

Randall Lind:
1 out of 2 times when starting I am prompted for an upgrade. Upgrade of what I never know sometime it will tell me after the upgrade other times I have to search the forums.

See Bob's comment here.

To find out what just upgraded open your home page. The most recent upgrade should be near the top of the page (note: you may need to press SHFT-F5 to refresh the page).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 9:30 AM

Super Tramp:
It is not necessary to shut Logos down every time you walk away from the computer. I leave mine open for days or weeks at a time.

YesYes

I rarely shut down my laptop, but just hibernate it every time I want to power it off, leaving Outlook and Logos open when I do so.  That way, I only have to start them up again if I reboot, inadvertently shut it down or am prompted to restart Logos (which, I concede, has been happening rather more regularly lately, and normally when I'm in a hurry).  I don't think Logos 4 takes any longer to start up on my laptop than Outlook does, and I don't hear many people compalining about Outlook startup times (although within an hour someone will probably post a dozen examples here!) 

I also have *****works, and that isn't exactly fast starting up, and even the new desktop PC version of *****tree just took 25 seconds to start up on my HP Pavilion dm1 - not much quicker than Logos, where I have approximately 3,000 resources, as opposed to hardly any on the other two applications.

The Sync2 update does seem to have slowed down startup, but it's doubtless because it is now syncing a great deal more than it used to (because we asked for a whole raft of stuff to be available cross-platform).  This thread also acted as a good reminder to schedule updating for a time when it's not inconvenient. 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

Posts 6489
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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 9:59 AM

Here are my start up times using this computer.

HP Pavilion Laptop: G71340 US

  • 17.3" diagonal widescreen LED display 
    Presents 1600 x 900 resolution (WXGA)
  • Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 4500MHD (shared) with up to 1759MB of total available graphics memory
  • Intel Core 2 Duo processor T6600 
    The HP Pavilion Laptop provides powerful performance with 2.2GHz speed, an 800MB frontside bus, and 2MB L2 cache
  • 4GB of DDR2 system memory
    Furnishes enough memory for today's demanding applications and can be expanded to 8GB
  • 320GB SATA hard drive   (5700 RPM)
    The HP Pavilion Laptop stores up to 90,000 photos, or up to 79,000 songs, or up to 38 hours of HD video, and more
  • LightScribe SuperMulti DVD optical drive with double-layer support
    Plays and creates CDs and DVDs with support for 11 different formats
  • LightScribe technology etches custom labels right onto LightScribe-ready discs
  • Wireless Wi-Fi and wired Ethernet
    Connect the HP Pavilion Laptop to a broadband modem (cable or DSL) wirelessly or using the wired 10/100 Ethernet port
  • Also wirelessly connects to a Wi-Fi signal/hotspot with 802.11b/g wireless LAN
  • Built-in 56k modem for dial-up connections

 

Using a cold boot, the splash screen came up right away. It took 55 seconds to bring up the sync screen, and another 30 seconds to open up to the home page. Nothing needed to be synced, as I had just shut the software down, after letting it sit idle for a while.

From the homepage it took 48 seconds to pull up this layout.

9 Bibles, 9 Commentaries, 1 Customized Exegetical guide, 16 dictionaries, plus informatin, highlighting, compare bible versions (4).

All of the Bibles except one are linked to A.

The commentaries in the top right corner are linked to A.

the dictionaries in the bottom right corner have six linked together as B. 

Power lookup is set to follow the active pane.

Cited by seems to be checking the entire library, except the tabs are not expanded.

Power lookup is set to A.

Notes feature is linked to several books of the Bible.

 

My observations are that, many computers are not optimized (Windows only), and we cannot have an intelligent discussion unless we are all running the same layouts, with similar linking capabilities, history and updates set alike.

The specs on the computers will need to be factored in. 

My experience tells me that:

1. Logos runs best when it is left running, rather than shutting it down and restarting it each time, (so does windows).

The first time you run a search, or use some of the dropdown menus, (parallel resources) it will take a second or two, the next time you use it, it will perform immediately. 

I would still like for Logos to develop some tool, that looks at the state of the computer, programs running, and how the individual is using the software, along with standardized tests (similar to benchmark) so we can see where the bottlenecks are.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Anonymous | | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 10:01 AM

When I boot my TabletPC, I immediately run Logos and OneNote.  They stay open until the next time I reboot, or Logos crashes, whichever comes first.  Usually this means about once a month.  I use sleep mode normally, so I rarely ever reboot.

Updates I do if:
a) I see a feature I want in one of the updates
b) I see a bugfix for a bug I am encountering regularly in the updates
c) I have a lot of prepubs that I've bought, but haven't bothered to install yet, accumulating. 

Generally, I typically go a month or two, maybe more sometimes, between updates.  Why would you update if there's nothing in the update for you?

Posts 98
J. Kane | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 10:44 AM

Randall

A lot of folks have weighed in.  I wanted to add my 2 cents and encourage you to breathe in and not "hate" Logos. 

I think a lot of this is simply a matter of perspective.

I'm a pastor and have used Logos for years.  I have a pretty large library - over 4,000 books.  I've had every Bible study app except BibleSoft.  I use Bible Works often.  I use Logos for hours each and every day studying for the 2 to 3 messages I preach/teach a week.

I'm glad they update the basic program as often as they do - fix bugs - I'm glad they fix typo's as often as they do.  There is an investment of time involved in learning to use it and so on, but the efficiency of study and flexibility of study Logos offers me is a blessing.  I often used to carry 6 to 10 books and more home at night and have huge briefcase.  I used to come in on Sunday  mornings at 5am and dig back in.  I can now do that at home by simply launching Logos and loading the desktop I saved from Saturday.

I'm going to a conference next week.  The core of my library that I will be using to study during breaks there is coming with me in my laptop.

I believe as you use the program and get oriented to it and follow suggestions it will turn out to be a great blessing and encouragement to you.

Posts 23
Ed W. Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 11:31 AM

I'm actually enjoying this software more and more.

After skimming through some posts here, I closed L4, waited a bit, and then timed the load-up time. 29 seconds from start to finish with this result -- 

 

On my ACER Aspire, Timeline X, Nividia GEFORCE, GT 540M CUDA 1GB,  Windows 7 64bit, home premium SP-1

Logos Bible Software 4.5a (4.51.0.2048)  (Beta)

 

Ed

Posts 10307
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 28 2012 12:07 PM

Well, Ed, that sounded to be like a bold challenge. Especially since you have a 5.9 WEI  and pen input. Matches me (Lenovo 220T)

 Frist, in each of the below tests, I have my Logos4 settings to no-internet and no-updates. Plus I don't use notes, highlights, collections, etc. Just tags. But on the other hand, I have the CPU running at 50% while on battery.

So I tried loading my 55 resource 4-window behemoth, and it timed to 1 min 30 seconds. In fact I couldn't even get a Logos entry page before you finished.

Then I tried playing around with the WIFI. First I turned off access to my router. No difference; same 90 seconds.

Then I turned the WIFI radio off on my PC. Woohoo >> 30-35 second load!! That Logos4 is indeed a speed-demon.


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