not THAT valuable

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toughski | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Mar 2 2012 9:05 PM

 

Dana Martinsen:

While I applaud the collection break-up AND appreciate the value of eBooks, especially Logos' version of them, I cannot believe Surprise that these titles are MORE THAN TWICE the cost of their Kindle cousins. Before I get the same-old "but the additional tagging and Logos integration is valuable, bla-bla-bla" let me say, it is not THAT valuable. It does not have the same value as the text itself, so why would it be 100% more expensive than analogous kindle version? I can't wait for some genius at Amazon provide a free KJV Bible with every Kindle and provide reference look-ups the same way they do word look ups.  This would definitely limit Logos' frivolous pricing.

As far as looking references up I can have 2 screens open (Kindle and Logos) and it will take me 1 extra second to look up a reference.

As far as searching in the book itself - Amazon has a pretty good index (although not as fancy as Logos')

as far as indexing notes and highlights from Kindle resource within Logos see this post

 

So, is the majority of Logos' users content with 50%-100% markup? Really? What do you consider a fair markup (compared with Kindle) for the added value of Logos Searching and Indexing? I personally think 10-20%

Posts 186
Robert G. Mettler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2012 9:19 PM

toughski:
So, is the majority of Logos' users content with 50%-100% markup?

 

Yes if you want the total functionality that you get from Logos 4.

 No if all you are interested in doing is reading on a portable device without co-ordinating with the total rest of your library.

Depends entirely on how you will use the resource.

Robert

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2012 11:18 PM

toughski:
So, is the majority of Logos' users content with 50%-100% markup? Really? What do you consider a fair markup (compared with Kindle) for the added value of Logos Searching and Indexing? I personally think 10-20%

I never look at it from an average perspective. When I need a resource I consider dead tree, Kindle, eBook, Vyrso, Logos ... and decide what features I need and what I am willing to pay for those features. My particular needs and budget skew my purchases towards used dead tree and Logos. I would prefer that Logos used a single low price and skipped the sales and special offers. But I assume they know their clientele so we get higher prices and deeper sales discounts. That's market forces for you.

But J.C. Penny's is changing strategies ... maybe there hope for Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2012 11:40 PM

Some things to consider:

  1. Some of the price is due to the publishers. They get to specify how much of a cut they receive for each sale. Amazon is known for setting razor-thin or even lossy margins for their books in order to undercut competition.
  2. Tagging and such does add value; whether or not it adds that much value is debatable.
  3. Logos charges too much for many, many of their resources. Tagging or no, there's no excuse for most of the public domain prices. Markup for non-public domain works is not quite as bad, typically, but resources still cost more than they should.
  4. Comes down to whether or not you're willing to grit your teeth and shell out the cash for the convenience Logos offers.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 1:30 AM

toughski:
As far as searching in the book itself - Amazon has a pretty good index (although not as fancy as Logos')
The real power of running searches in Logos is when you are searching a huge library of millions of pages at once. There is no way to run those type of searches in Kindle, on thousands of PDFs or any other library platform out there. Most Bible software companies don't offer the majority of titles Logos does. So it boils down to do we buy our groceries at 13 different stores to maximize our savings while expending extra gasoline and time to accomplish the feat? Or do we just hit one big store, buy everything there and get back home to spend that redeemed time with the family and in more productive Bible study?

How much does it cost to purchase one extra day to add on the end of one's life? Logos is worth it to me.

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toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 5:44 AM

Super Tramp:
So it boils down to do we buy our groceries at 13 different stores to maximize our savings while expending extra gasoline and time to accomplish the feat?

I believe a more accurate analogy would be: paying a pizza delivery driver as much for delivery as the pizza itself. I have never seen anyone do that.

By the way, how much would you pay for pizza delivery as a % of items ordered?

going back to SuperTramp's illustration, how much (in %) does a retailer that has everything under one roof charge over and above 13 separate specialized stores? I doubt it is a 100% markup. That is why I believe your illustration does not hold water, and that is why I think that those who are saying "it is worth it to me" should use some restraint.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 6:00 AM

toughski, you raise some important issues.  one thing that came to my mind was wondering how Logos might be spreading out the cost of the whole Logos system in a way that keeps the most expensive to produce books at a reasonable rate but keeps the cheapter ones from being way cheaper.  You follow my thought?  I don't know that it has merit, but it was just one idea that came to mind.

the other thought I have is that I have read multiple places how often Amazon undercuts even their cost for the sheer purpose of getting market share.  They are so huge they can do that more than Logos, which is more limited as a company.  that said , I HAVE seen Vyrso titles about the same as Kindle on occasion.

I used to be a lot more cynical about Logos back in the day.  positively, such an approach helped me challenge the system and its blindspots.  negatively, I often found I was somewhat myopic about the whole system that led me to false conclusions.  when I heard a little more from Bob on a situation, I realized things I'd never thought about before and I also saw that Logos also addressed my pet peeve issues over time, too.  I've mellowed, consequently.  

 

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Posts 450
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 6:01 AM

My difficulty is more in having to buy the resources multiple times. I already own the dead tree version which cost just as much as the Logos version. I'm persuaded that it is more the publishers trying to squeeze out margin that Logos trying to make money (I do understand they need to make some revenue and margin to grow and survive). Just difficult in these times to say the price is worth having more than one copy - especially when the Scripture index could be used in the dead tree version.

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Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 6:37 AM

toughski:
So, is the majority of Logos' users content with 50%-100% markup? Really?

Yep, it really IS that valuable to me.  Your evaluation of it's worth is entirely your opinion and your choice.  If the added benefits of integration with Logos are not worth the increased cost to you, then I heartily applaud your decision to fragment your library between Logos and Kindle for the sake of cost savings.  Wouldn't be my choice, but yeah it works in the same way as having a wall full of dead-tree books works: inefficiently.

 

"I read dead people..."

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nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 7:11 AM

vyrso prices are often slightly cheaper than kindle, at any rate kindle UK, with which I am registered.  Tho I was annoyed to find one book, which I'd bought, admittedly cheaply, on vyrso, was free on kindle!  And I hope vyrso will iron out the bug that means that today's freebies are NOT free!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 7:35 AM

Dan DeVilder:
 one thing that came to my mind was wondering how Logos might be spreading out the cost of the whole Logos system in a way that keeps the most expensive to produce books at a reasonable rate but keeps the cheapter ones from being way cheaper.  You follow my thought?
 I think this is how Logos does things Dan. But in their mind they don't view it as a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" or some kind of socialistic re-distribution of wealth. They figure it is ok for them to charge a certain rate for a product they have created (whether or not they paid a fortune to acquire the rights or if it came to them free) and then take their profits (large or small) and underwrite resources they want to publish that very few others are willing to pay for. I happen to think that model is fine but my opinion stops at the edge of their lawn as far as they are concerned. I was watching one of Seth Godin's videos "It's Broke" where Seth says many customers can truly believe a company's system is flawed while the company is just fine with the current set-up because it accomplishes what it is designed to do. Godin believes bicyclists should not be required to pay the same taxes motor vehicle operators pay. But I would counter the "country bumpkins" living in "fly-over country" shouldn't have to defend the great coastal cities from foreign invasion. (I mean, what enemy would really want to own "fly-over country?" Even most of America doesn't regard it very highly.Surprise.)

Dan DeVilder:
I have read multiple places how often Amazon undercuts even their cost for the sheer purpose of getting market share.
That is the predatory style Walmart perfected. Many small town pharmacies and mom & pop stores were put out of business (by design) using this tactic. I bet sometimes Logos charges more just to give the other Bible software companies a chance to catch their breath. Barry Switzer, former football coach of Oklahoma University & the Dallas Cowboys, would send in his second and third teams when he was trouncing the opponent. One time a totally inept team was shut out with some 84 to 0 trouncing. They complained Switzer was mean to them, to which Barry replied; "Who else could I send in? The waterboys? Every kid on the bench got to play in that game!"

As for the return on investment; I promise you, it varies wildly from one resource to another. Taken on an individual basis, some resources make a killing, others would be considered a waste of time if profit margins and ROI are the only things considered. But Logos appears to be using revenues to help shore up the weaker family members and publish what they could not otherwise afford. This is fine with me because the money they are using quit being "mine" when I traded it for resources.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 8:21 AM

toughski:
I believe a more accurate analogy would be: paying a pizza delivery driver as much for delivery as the pizza itself. I have never seen anyone do that.
My sister's first job was being a carhop at a drive-in hamburger joint. She would frequently get a $20 tip for carrying a 50 cent coke to a customer. (Yes, the customers were pimps with ulterior motives, but that is besides the point.) My Navy son is an overly generous tipper because he feels for the working class.

toughski:
how much (in %) does a retailer that has everything under one roof charge over and above 13 separate specialized stores? I doubt it is a 100% markup. That is why I believe your illustration does not hold water

All across America retailers set their prices by what the market will bear, not by what it costs to deliver product to the locale. (Sure Hawaii & Alaska pay more for shipping.) Every time I search online for local retailer's prices I have to enter my zip code to get my price. Walmart, Autozone, O'Reilly's ...they all do it. What I find disturbing is their prices are usually cheaper in the more affluent neighborhoods. I can drive 5 miles to the "Ritz-y" side of town and save $50 off an identical item at their Walmart. I paid $150 for a water pump at O'Reilly's in Eufaula, OK  (just off the interstate) and discovered the same part was $47 in OKC.  

I doubt most businesses have 100% markup. I doubt Logos does very often either. Factoring in overhead, the freebies, bundles, special sales, and academic discounts will reduce that margin significantly. 

toughski:
and that is why I think that those who are saying "it is worth it to me" should use some restraint.
 eBay is a grand success because people do not show restraint. The prices are truly set by supply & demand. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 8:38 AM

Alexander Longacre:
My difficulty is more in having to buy the resources multiple times. I already own the dead tree version which cost just as much as the Logos version. I'm persuaded that it is more the publishers trying to squeeze out margin that Logos trying to make money

Yeah, I really hated buying my music on records, then re-buying on 8-track, then cassets, and finally CDs and mp3s. I figure some artists should have been paid royalties 5 times for each album by now. I bet the RIAA never passed all those royalties on to the artists. Angry But from Logos' perspective, they did not get any money from your purchase of the books in dead tree format. To require Logos to give you credit from the first transaction is like buying a DieHard battery at Sears and when it goes dead 6 months later, asking Walmart for credit to buy an Everlast battery. 

Bob Pritchett Tweeted this week on an article about Amazon and Google trying to cut out the middle men who add nothing to the value of published works but increased costs. Seth Godin said half of all iTunes are not  sold in record stores. The paradigm has already shifted and the old leeches of yesteryear will soon wither away. 

 

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Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 9:15 AM

Is it that time of year again Super? Time to change the avatar? :D

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 9:22 AM

Alexander Longacre:
 Is it that time of year again Super? Time to change the avatar? :D  

WoW, that was quick. How come it isn't showing up on my forum posts yet?  Must be the "first time indexing" slowing down my refresh rates. I will see the new avatar sometime in April.....Crying        Oh, there it is. Pretty, imho. Big Smile

 

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Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 9:30 AM

Super Tramp:

Alexander Longacre:
 Is it that time of year again Super? Time to change the avatar? :D  

WoW, that was quick. How come it isn't showing up on my forum posts yet?  Must be the "first time indexing" slowing down my refresh rates. I will see the new avatar sometime in April.....Crying        Oh, there it is. Pretty, imho. Big Smile

 

Yes

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:05 AM

This discussion happens about once a month on these forums in one way or another.

I don't get it.

If it cost less for you in one place, and the increase in value for a Logos resource isn't worth it to you, buy it elsewhere. Simple: buy where you want and move on. I do.

If you want to discuss marketing strategy, fine (though I'm not sure such discussions belong on these forums); but who among us is really qualified to disagree with Logos (who's market share and sales have gone through the roof recently)? They are obviously doing something very, very well.

If you want to discuss the morality of charging money for things, or business ethics as it touches on a defensible pricing structure, that's fine too (though I'm not sure that discussion belongs on these forums either), but it's clear that discussing business ethics from the exclusive perspective of consumer needs/wants/etc., sounds more than a little self-serving.

I do think it is appropriate, if one did decides to purchase a resource from Amazon that is also available in Logos, to send an email to sales stating why. It might help them dial in their pricing structure to something more competitive. But I really don't see a point in bringing up the presence of price differentials in these forums.

Yet I'm sure we'll have this discussion again in a few weeks.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:45 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
Yet I'm sure we'll have this discussion again in a few weeks.
Will you post your cookie cutter response when we do?

~

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:50 AM

Abi Gail:

 

hey, where's that old beloved Avatar of yours?

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:50 AM

Abi Gail:

Richard DeRuiter:
Yet I'm sure we'll have this discussion again in a few weeks.
Will you post your cookie cutter response when we do?

Predictable, repeatable statement : : predictable repeatable response.

Sounds reasonable. Wink

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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