not THAT valuable

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Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 9:34 PM

For some resources, mostly commentaries, lexicons, Bible dictionaries, I will pay a premium to have them in Logos format.  But for most other, i will not.  I agree in the case of almost any other resoruces it is not worth the price difference. 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:33 PM

Joshua G:

As someone who was a pizza delivery "expert" for 6 years, I can attest this is incorrect. Big Smile While most people tip a couple bucks, there are plenty of people who tip BIG. Sometimes even more than the cost of the pizza. Every now and then someone would tip ridiculously big - over 40 dollars for their order. Cool

OK, the only thing is - tips are at the discretion of the customer, Logos seems to be selling $40 pizza and charging $40 for delivery. I am not sure how long this business model can last in the real world. (I am sure it will survive just fine simply from diversification of their business and breadth of their offerings, but definitely be losing market share to Amazon, ... and ChristianBook.com, and B&N, and Sony, and Coby, and...).

I predict Logos prices will go lower with time to stay competitive.


Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:39 PM

toughski:

I am not sure how long this business model can last in the real world. (I am sure it will survive just fine simply from diversification of their business and breadth of their offerings, but definitely be losing market share to Amazon, ... and ChristianBook.com, and B&N, and Sony, and Coby, and...).

I predict Logos prices will go lower with time to stay competitive.

Competitive? I don't consider CBD, B&N, or Amazon competitors of Logos. None of those companies can offer me what Logos can.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 8:23 AM

Joshua G:

toughski:

I am not sure how long this business model can last in the real world. (I am sure it will survive just fine simply from diversification of their business and breadth of their offerings, but definitely be losing market share to Amazon, ... and ChristianBook.com, and B&N, and Sony, and Coby, and...).

I predict Logos prices will go lower with time to stay competitive.

Competitive? I don't consider CBD, B&N, or Amazon competitors of Logos. None of those companies can offer me what Logos can.

 

you both might have a point.  On the one hand, Amazon/B&N/etc do not produce Bible Software platform/systems, certainly CBD does not.  So, they may not be completely direct competitors.  However, as Michael Childs points out, some dollars to not go to Logos, because price differential causes potential buyers to get a stripped down ebook from Amazon et al, or even, in some cases, to opt for "deadtree" options.  Logos loses out.

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 12:45 PM

toughski:
I predict Logos prices will go lower with time to stay competitive.
 I predict Logos prices will continue to fluctuate because Dan Pritchett likes sales. Not because they have to "compete" with plain vanilla ebooks. Here are three reasons I don't think there is much competition:

  • I bought trhe Jack Van Impe Prophecy Bible off Amazon last month, only because Logos does not sell them.
  • I bought The Strand Study Bible off eBay last week. I hope to convince Logos and Pastor Brad Strand to publish it in Logos format.
  • I just bought the Archaeology Study Bible from CBD, only because I can not get it in Logos yet. (The book was damaged in transit and CBD is replacing it for free -- good customer service!)

I do not see any duplicate books that CBD, Amazon, or any of the other Bible software companies sell as being any threat to Logos sales because they do not measure up to the Logos product.  The only time I purchase resources in other software is when I can not get it in Logos. (Complete Biblical Library is under exclusive contract for a number of years with WordSearch.) The only duplicate premium resource I have is BDAG/HALOT because I owned it in BibleWorks before I switched to Logos. (You might say Logos drew me away from BibleWorks.) I keep BibleWorks for the Japanese Bibles and other content not available in Logos yet.

Logos prices will probably go down s-l-o-w-l-y over many years, as they saturate the market  The users who buy the resources today will enjoy using them for ten years while others wait for the resource prices to bottom out. Some of us don't have that luxury of waiting to start buying Logos resources. We won't be around in 2025.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 2:14 PM

toughski:
So, is the majority of Logos' users content with 50%-100% markup? Really? What do you consider a fair markup (compared with Kindle) for the added value of Logos Searching and Indexing? I personally think 10-20%

Do what I did, stop buying books from Logos that don't benefit from the extra indexing that Logos provides. Means I don't buy a lot from Logos any more, but it also means that I am a better steward.

Now what really bothers me is that I have a 1000 books in my library, I probably haven't used more than a 100, wouldn't have ever purchased those other 900, but Logos priced the ones I wanted in such a way that it was more expensive to buy them singly than it was to buy them in a set with all the other chaff.

 

 

Posts 450
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 4:06 PM

Terry Poperszky:

toughski:
So, is the majority of Logos' users content with 50%-100% markup? Really? What do you consider a fair markup (compared with Kindle) for the added value of Logos Searching and Indexing? I personally think 10-20%

Do what I did, stop buying books from Logos that don't benefit from the extra indexing that Logos provides. Means I don't buy a lot from Logos any more, but it also means that I am a better steward.

Now what really bothers me is that I have a 1000 books in my library, I probably haven't used more than a 100, wouldn't have ever purchased those other 900, but Logos priced the ones I wanted in such a way that it was more expensive to buy them singly than it was to buy them in a set with all the other chaff.

You could always try to mass sell the unused books with a one time $20 transfer :D

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 4:30 PM

Alexander Longacre:
You could always try to mass sell the unused books with a one time $20 transfer :D

That probably won't work since they probably came as part of a package.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 5:34 PM

The portions that bother me is when I'm paying pretty high prices for Public Domain materials, some of which are readily available for free on the internet.

Calvin's Commentaries http://www.logos.com/product/5161/calvins-commentaries for instance... I would love to have these in Logos, but not $400 worth of love.

So... I make due by visiting online sources for free, as well as consulting PDF's and TXT files of them.

This is the same thing with the new Edward's Collection. As much as I would love to have the Works of Jonathan Edwards in Logos, I'll readily peruse my Book collection, in conjunction with Yale, and other online sources that have the complete works of Edward's for free.

http://www.logos.com/product/15471/the-works-of-jonathan-edwards $900? Really? For something that is readily available for free? On top of this... Amazon is slowly releasing these volumes through Kindle for less than $5 each.

I really do have to decide what to have in Logos and what not to, and while I would happily pay a premium to have my resources in Logos, I would be a fool to pay the premium being requested for some of the resources.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 6:50 PM

Terry Poperszky:
Do what I did, stop buying books from Logos that don't benefit from the extra indexing that Logos provides. Means I don't buy a lot from Logos any more, but it also means that I am a better steward.
 Good plan:

  1. Don't buy stuff you don't want.
  2. Don't buy stuff you don't need.
  3. Don't buy stuff you won't use.
  4. Don't buy stuff you think is not worth the price. 

Do those 900 unused books take up too much shelf space? Are you spending your Saturday mornings dusting books you regret buying? Your purchase of the 900 "unwanted" books got you a better price on the 100 you did want. That seems to have been a wise decision on your part. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 7:08 PM

Ryan:
I really do have to decide what to have in Logos and what not to, and while I would happily pay a premium to have my resources in Logos, I would be a fool to pay the premium being requested for some of the resources.
 I won't argue with your assessment of your own personal situation .If you indeed see no difference between TXT, PDF, Kindle and tagged & formatted Logos resources, "Yes", it would seem foolish. But others may see a bunch of reasons for buying resources in Logos over the inferior formats. 

Some people golf, some attend NFL games, some people travel, some collect stamps. I think a strong argument could be made that buying Bible study software (at any price) would be a less foolish expenditure than the aforementioned activities. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 8:23 PM

Super Tramp:
If you indeed see no difference between TXT, PDF, Kindle and tagged & formatted Logos resources, "Yes", it would seem foolish. But others may see a bunch of reasons for buying resources in Logos over the inferior formats. 

Super Tramp, I just love your assumptions that "other formats" are automatically inferior. If I was a betting man, I would be willing to wager that in your household not every single tool bears a mark "Craftsman." It is just not possible. 

There is furniture that is sold for millions of dollars, built without a single metal fastener with simple and crude hand tools.  Such quality workmanship is unmatched by today's craftsmen using the latest tool tech available.

I bet Ansel Adams could use any point-and-shoot camera to produce stunning shots. Your logical fallacy is that "stuff" makes you better. No, my friend, practice makes you better, stuff might make life easier, but not always.

Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 11:34 PM

toughski:

Super Tramp, I just love your assumptions that "other formats" are automatically inferior.

I'm not sure if I understand where you are coming from. They are inferior in terms of functionality. Please explain how a Kindle e-book commentary on John is on the same equal playing field as a fully tagged and formatted Logos commentary on John.

 

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 5:08 AM

I guess for me it's a no brainer. My Kindle is reserved for leisure reading so I don 't buy books for my Kindle that I use for my work. Over half of the books I have in my Kindle library are less that $5.00 and many of them are free. Any ministerial resources I buy are in Logos unless it is available in hard copy form only. I have Logos on my dektop at home and the office as well as my laptop. So I have access to all of my resources no matter where I may be. The only drawback to this is when I need a paper copy only resource and it is not where I am presently working.

So to summarize, if I am on my Kindle it is for pure relaxation and enjoyment. If I am on Logos, I am working and/or seeking to grow spiritually. In those times when the two intertwine it is not a show stopper.

Blessings,

Bob

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 6:28 AM

toughski:
Super Tramp, I just love your assumptions that "other formats" are automatically inferior. If I was a betting man, I would be willing to wager that in your household not every single tool bears a mark "Craftsman." It is just not possible. 

I am a Klein Tools man myself. I assure you most $30 screw drivers (Snap-on, Mac, Cooper, etc) are in reality superior to a Craftsman tool in every way,  Wink

Like Joshua said, there are intrinsic differences among your stated file formats. If your goal is to read on a Kindle then you obviously want to buy a resource formatted for that hardware. That would make your inferior format and all of the accompanying limitations the "superior" format. It does not mean your cheap book is as useful as my Logos format. Anything and everything you can do with a Kindle book, I can do with a Logos book (except run it on the Kindle.)

I don't need to win any debate here. Whenever this discussion is raised in the forums everyone who starts it is demanding Logos lower their prices. If Logos did match prices with Kindle, PDF, TXT, and the "other guys" in the Bible software industry, all of the nay-sayers would buy the Logos software every time. No logical person would buy the inferior brand when they can have the best at the same price, No logical person would be pushing for brands they don't like to succeed. So either we need that green puppy to come around again or we should just acknowledge Logos is superior.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." from Shakespeare's Hamlet, Act III, scene II.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 6:51 AM

Super Tramp:
If you indeed see no difference between TXT, PDF, Kindle and tagged & formatted Logos resources, "Yes", it would seem foolish. But others may see a bunch of reasons for buying resources in Logos over the inferior formats. 

I did not say I saw no difference between them... I see the obvious benefits of Logos, and for these reasons I have quite a large Logos library. And readily recommend Logos as a study aid to every studious Christian I come in contact with, as the opportunity permits. That being said, you completely missed the point.

Studying with Logos is about time, efficiency, and convenience. Having more resources in Logos exponentially improves on these three categories by having indexing, searchability, cross referencing, etc. 

When the resource is primarily for reading, I.E. The Works of John Owen or The Works of B.B. Warfield, these are going to primarily be read and/or cited. These are ideal resources for PDF/TXT/Kindle. I say this while owning both of these collections in LBS. Commentaries, on the other hand, would be hard to justify in any other medium than Logos, if an individual had a Logos Library.

Some people golf, some attend NFL games, some people travel, some collect stamps. I think a strong argument could be made that buying Bible study software (at any price) would be a less foolish expenditure than the aforementioned activities.

I truly believe that you believe what you say. It is because of logic like this that Bible publishers sell low quality Bibles for $40-$75, Joel Osteen books flying off the shelves, and gimicky expensive Christian products. 

There are other things I spend money on. I have a family, there are hobbies that I have, and when the cost heavily outweighs the time gained, efficiency, and convenience... I probably won't buy it.

Probably some of the same reasons why I don't see myself upgrading to Portfolio Edition.

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 7:25 AM

When I first started buying books with Logos it was because they were priced so much cheaper than paper books.

I built my library by buying box sets at places like (Sams). I no longer see any of those kinds of deals. I did not know anything about its functionality and rarely used it. The price alone determined the choice for me. At this point even if I never bought another book from them I already have what I need. As a consumer, the ball is always in our court.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 7:32 AM

George Somsel:

Alexander Longacre:
You could always try to mass sell the unused books with a one time $20 transfer :D

That probably won't work since they probably came as part of a package.

Correct as usual George

 

 

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 7:42 AM

Super Tramp:
Do those 900 unused books take up too much shelf space? Are you spending your Saturday mornings dusting books you regret buying? Your purchase of the 900 "unwanted" books got you a better price on the 100 you did want. That seems to have been a wise decision on your part. 

Nope, which is why I don't waste too much time whining about it Big Smile But the better price is relative, when I can buy the package for the same or lower price as a subset by itself, that tells me that the subset price is artificially high, much like locale retailers that post an artificially high retail price so they can advertise 50% off.

But Logos is consistent in their methodology and not predatory, so I know what to expect. I am sure there are people that buy more because of the volume, just like there are people that frequent all you can eat buffets. Wink

 

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 7:47 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins:
I built my library by buying box sets at places like (Sams). I no longer see any of those kinds of deals. I did not know anything about its functionality and rarely used it. The price alone determined the choice for me. At this point even if I never bought another book from them I already have what I need. As a consumer, the ball is always in our court.

Most of us (or so it seems to me) didn't get started with Logos based on price but on being able to have them on our computer and search and link them in addition to not having to clutter shelves and shelves with books (let's face it, we only use a small portion of them at any one time) which increasingly won't fit into our more restricted living areas.  If I were simply interested in "cheap", I would probably go with Kindle; but with me Kindle is something of a last resort (well, next to last after print).  No one ever has "what they need" in books.  There is always some new (or never before seen) whiz-bang which becomes necessary.  Would I like cheaper resources?  Would a kid like more ice cream?  Silly question.  The thing is that I want Logos to "live long and prosper" so that they will be around for the next 900 + years when I want some more resources.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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