not THAT valuable

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345643#Comment_345643

If you indeed see no difference between TXT, PDF, Kindle and tagged & formatted Logos resources, "Yes", it would seem foolish. But others may see a bunch of reasons for buying resources in Logos over the inferior formats.

Super Tramp, I just love your assumptions that "other formats" are automatically inferior. If I was a betting man, I would be willing to wager that in your household not every single tool bears a mark "Craftsman." It is just not possible.

There is furniture that is sold for millions of dollars, built without a single metal fastener with simple and crude hand tools. Such quality workmanship is unmatched by today's craftsmen using the latest tool tech available.

I bet Ansel Adams could use any point-and-shoot camera to produce stunning shots. Your logical fallacy is that "stuff" makes you better. No, my friend, practice makes you better, stuff might make life easier, but not always.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345655#Comment_345655

Super Tramp, I just love your assumptions that "other formats" are automatically inferior.

I'm not sure if I understand where you are coming from. They are inferior in terms of functionality. Please explain how a Kindle e-book commentary on John is on the same equal playing field as a fully tagged and formatted Logos commentary on John.

Bob Schlessman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345678#Comment_345678

I guess for me it's a no brainer. My Kindle is reserved for leisure reading so I don 't buy books for my Kindle that I use for my work. Over half of the books I have in my Kindle library are less that $5.00 and many of them are free. Any ministerial resources I buy are in Logos unless it is available in hard copy form only. I have Logos on my dektop at home and the office as well as my laptop. So I have access to all of my resources no matter where I may be. The only drawback to this is when I need a paper copy only resource and it is not where I am presently working.

So to summarize, if I am on my Kindle it is for pure relaxation and enjoyment. If I am on Logos, I am working and/or seeking to grow spiritually. In those times when the two intertwine it is not a show stopper.

Blessings,

Bob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345655#Comment_345655

Super Tramp, I just love your assumptions that "other formats" are automatically inferior. If I was a betting man, I would be willing to wager that in your household not every single tool bears a mark "Craftsman." It is just not possible.

I am a Klein Tools man myself. I assure you most $30 screw drivers (Snap-on, Mac, Cooper, etc) are in reality superior to a Craftsman tool in every way, [;)]

Like Joshua said, there are intrinsic differences among your stated file formats. If your goal is to read on a Kindle then you obviously want to buy a resource formatted for that hardware. That would make your inferior format and all of the accompanying limitations the "superior" format. It does not mean your cheap book is as useful as my Logos format. Anything and everything you can do with a Kindle book, I can do with a Logos book (except run it on the Kindle.)

I don't need to win any debate here. Whenever this discussion is raised in the forums everyone who starts it is demanding Logos lower their prices. If Logos did match prices with Kindle, PDF, TXT, and the "other guys" in the Bible software industry, all of the nay-sayers would buy the Logos software every time. No logical person would buy the inferior brand when they can have the best at the same price, No logical person would be pushing for brands they don't like to succeed. So either we need that green puppy to come around again or we should just acknowledge Logos is superior.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." from Shakespeare's Hamlet, Act III, scene II.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345643#Comment_345643

If you indeed see no difference between TXT, PDF, Kindle and tagged & formatted Logos resources, "Yes", it would seem foolish. But others may see a bunch of reasons for buying resources in Logos over the inferior formats.

I did not say I saw no difference between them... I see the obvious benefits of Logos, and for these reasons I have quite a large Logos library. And readily recommend Logos as a study aid to every studious Christian I come in contact with, as the opportunity permits. That being said, you completely missed the point.

Studying with Logos is about time, efficiency, and convenience. Having more resources in Logos exponentially improves on these three categories by having indexing, searchability, cross referencing, etc.

When the resource is primarily for reading, I.E. The Works of John Owen or The Works of B.B. Warfield, these are going to primarily be read and/or cited. These are ideal resources for PDF/TXT/Kindle. I say this while owning both of these collections in LBS. Commentaries, on the other hand, would be hard to justify in any other medium than Logos, if an individual had a Logos Library.

[quote]Some people golf, some attend NFL games, some people travel, some collect stamps. I think a strong argument could be made that buying Bible study software (at any price) would be a less foolish expenditure than the aforementioned activities.

I truly believe that you believe what you say. It is because of logic like this that Bible publishers sell low quality Bibles for $40-$75, Joel Osteen books flying off the shelves, and gimicky expensive Christian products.

There are other things I spend money on. I have a family, there are hobbies that I have, and when the cost heavily outweighs the time gained, efficiency, and convenience... I probably won't buy it.

Probably some of the same reasons why I don't see myself upgrading to Portfolio Edition.

Jesse Blevins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345723#Comment_345723

When I first started buying books with Logos it was because they were priced so much cheaper than paper books.

I built my library by buying box sets at places like (Sams). I no longer see any of those kinds of deals. I did not know anything about its functionality and rarely used it. The price alone determined the choice for me. At this point even if I never bought another book from them I already have what I need. As a consumer, the ball is always in our court.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345617#Comment_345617

You could always try to mass sell the unused books with a one time $20 transfer

That probably won't work since they probably came as part of a package.

Correct as usual George

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345639#Comment_345639

Do those 900 unused books take up too much shelf space? Are you spending your Saturday mornings dusting books you regret buying? Your purchase of the 900 "unwanted" books got you a better price on the 100 you did want. That seems to have been a wise decision on your part.

Nope, which is why I don't waste too much time whining about it [:D] But the better price is relative, when I can buy the package for the same or lower price as a subset by itself, that tells me that the subset price is artificially high, much like locale retailers that post an artificially high retail price so they can advertise 50% off.

But Logos is consistent in their methodology and not predatory, so I know what to expect. I am sure there are people that buy more because of the volume, just like there are people that frequent all you can eat buffets. [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345751#Comment_345751

I built my library by buying box sets at places like (Sams). I no longer see any of those kinds of deals. I did not know anything about its functionality and rarely used it. The price alone determined the choice for me. At this point even if I never bought another book from them I already have what I need. As a consumer, the ball is always in our court.

Most of us (or so it seems to me) didn't get started with Logos based on price but on being able to have them on our computer and search and link them in addition to not having to clutter shelves and shelves with books (let's face it, we only use a small portion of them at any one time) which increasingly won't fit into our more restricted living areas. If I were simply interested in "cheap", I would probably go with Kindle; but with me Kindle is something of a last resort (well, next to last after print). No one ever has "what they need" in books. There is always some new (or never before seen) whiz-bang which becomes necessary. Would I like cheaper resources? Would a kid like more ice cream? Silly question. The thing is that I want Logos to "live long and prosper" so that they will be around for the next 900 + years when I want some more resources.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345757#Comment_345757

just like there are people that frequent all you can eat buffets.

Hey, watch that! We here at Fatties United take umbrage at being slighted. [:D] [;)] (Actually, I'd like to lose some weight, but I wouldn't call myself fat—at least not obese (my doctor might disagree).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345678#Comment_345678

Please explain how a Kindle e-book commentary on John is on the same equal playing field as a fully tagged and formatted Logos commentary on John.

<sarcasm> Joshua, Joshua, you did an amazing job of avoiding answering my arguments and went off on a tangent. A+ for your logic and debate skills! </sarcasm>

Let's just talk about the resources in question, shall we. 3 Counseling volumes.

From: Biblical Counseling Collection (30 vols.).

Competent to Counsel

The Christian Counselor's Manual

A Theology of Christian Counseling

I assure you most $30 screw drivers (Snap-on, Mac, Cooper, etc) are in reality superior to a Craftsman tool in every way,

Again, I know you are not driving your large family in a BMW SUV, do you? But why? BMW is superior to (insert your family car here) in EVERY WAY (emphasis mine to prove the point - "a better tool doth not a better experience make")

Having Logos edition of books versus Kindle will not make you a better counselor. Superior house will not make your marriage better.

Anything and everything you can do with a Kindle book, I can do with a Logos book (except run it on the Kindle.)

This is a typical fan-boy response: ill-informed and proud. Let's talk about facts, shall we?

Can you highlight and notate a Logos book in a browser?, Android device? You can with Kindle resource.
Can you read Logos books on Blackberry, Windows7 Phone? You can Kindle resources.
and let's not forget the e-ink screens.
Kindle resources could be read natively on e-Ink. Before someone says that Logos title can be converted and sent to Kindle, the opposite is true (although of questionable legality: Kindle title can be converted to a PBB, tagged and made into a searchable Logos resource)
Price - Kindle resources are typically MUCH cheaper than Logos.

Logos titles are great, and better in many ways, but not in all ways. I value my Logos library. I would much rather get a Logos file than a Kindle file. I would rather support LOGOS than Amazon, but I just can't at this price level (again, I am referring to the 3 resources above). 100% more cost for just a little more work and just a little added information? This is a joke.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345723#Comment_345723

Whenever this discussion is raised in the forums everyone who starts it is demanding Logos lower their prices.

Really? Everyone? Demanding? I hope your exegesis of Scripture does not likewise suffer from "reading things into it."

we should just acknowledge Logos is superior.

Logos has a very good niche in the eBook publishing market. The suitability of Logos' titles is a highly subjective issue and is affected by their price, user's occupation, academic status and other variables.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345832#Comment_345832

Logos has a very good niche in the eBook publishing market. The suitability of Logos' titles is a highly subjective issue and is affected by their price, user's occupation, academic status and other variables.

Dear Pussycat,

Are you here to simply cause dissention? If you think the prices are too high, the solution has been set forth for you—don't buy them. As for me and my house, we will stay with Logos.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345817#Comment_345817

BMW is superior to (insert your family car here) in EVERY WAY

Doubt the truth of that statement. My granddaughter owns a BMW, while my wife and I own a Ford crossover and a Chevy pickup. We get better performance along with less expensive—and less frequent—repairs.

100% more cost for just a little more work and just a little added information? This is a joke.

Then, don't purchase from Logos, but let the rest of us make our own decisions. You seem intent on convincing yourself that the rest of us a just plain stupid. I am frankly tired of those who believe themselves to be intellectual superior trying to force their sense of value upon the rest of us. If you believe Logos resources are overpriced, then do not purchase them. Let the rest of us make our own decisions.

Before you call me a "fanboy" like you just did ST, I suggest that you read more of my posts on the L4 Mac forum.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345832#Comment_345832

Logos has a very good niche in the eBook publishing market. The suitability of Logos' titles is a highly subjective issue and is affected by their price, user's occupation, academic status and other variables.

I would add to that list (in fact place at the top of that list) the type of resource. That and the price are my primary considerations when deciding in what format to purchase a book.

If it's a dictionary, commentary, or original language resource, then Logos' tagging is worth a premium. Oddly, Logos doesn't seem to charge that much of a premium for those resources compared to print and Kindle counterparts. That's not always the case, but as generalizations go it seems to hold true pretty well.

Works on counseling (like the ones that started this thread) and, to a lesser degree, theology don't benefit nearly as much from resource tagging, and as such I'm not willing to pay nearly as much for the value added service Logos offers. If it's cheaper for Kindle, I'll buy it for Kindle, read it there, and import it to Logos as a personal book just to make it searchable. Most scripture references are automatically tagged, and I don't worry too much about the ones that aren't.

Just my two cents.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345856#Comment_345856

Doubt the truth of that statement.

Jack, I was using the same (false) logic that ST used, that is all. You just proved my point, thank you.

Then, don't purchase from Logos

I didn't

I am frankly tired of those who believe themselves to be intellectual superior trying to force their sense of value upon the rest of us.

me too! I am frankly tired of anyone trying to force their sense of value upon the rest of us. Nuff said.

But others may see a bunch of reasons for buying resources in Logos over the inferior formats.

So either we need that green puppy to come around again or we should just acknowledge Logos is superior.

If your goal is to read on a Kindle then you obviously want to buy a resource formatted for that hardware. That would make your inferior format and all of the accompanying limitations the "superior" format. It does not mean your cheap book is as useful as my Logos format.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345854#Comment_345854

Dear Pussycat,

Are you here to simply cause dissention? If you think the prices are too high, the solution has been set forth for you—don't buy them. As for me and my house, we will stay with Logos.

Someone raises the point that there seems to be a discongruity between realistic prices and Logos prices and you're ready to burn him at the stake as being a dissenter?

Sounds like Roman Popery.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345883#Comment_345883

Dear Pussycat,

Are you here to simply cause dissention? If you think the prices are too high, the solution has been set forth for you—don't buy them. As for me and my house, we will stay with Logos.

Someone raises the point that there seems to be a discongruity between realistic prices and Logos prices and you're ready to burn him at the stake as being a dissenter?

Sounds like Roman Popery.

So you're going to try to stir the pot too? I don't recall that I brandished a match. As regards "Roman Popery", I don't intend to open that can of worms again, but you should know by now that I am not Roman Catholic. You should cease trying to be incendiary.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345891#Comment_345891

I'm not attempting to be "incendiary"; it would seem within this conversation, you came out the gate with an ad hominem "pussycat".

As regards "Roman Popery", I don't intend to open that can of worms again, but you should know by now that I am not Roman Catholic.

I know... it seems the irony is lost.

Dave Moser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345624#Comment_345624

This is the same thing with the new Edward's Collection. As much as I would love to have the Works of Jonathan Edwards in Logos, I'll readily peruse my Book collection, in conjunction with Yale, and other online sources that have the complete works of Edward's for free.
http://www.logos.com/product/15471/the-works-of-jonathan-edwards $900? Really? For something that is readily available for free? On top of this... Amazon is slowly releasing these volumes through Kindle for less than $5 each.

Two misunderstandings:

1. Logos didn't set this price. The high price is a product, not of Logos, but of the bizare world of academic publishing. This collection is something you would normally see in a library, not a personal collection and is being made available to (very motivated) individual buyers by Logos.

Your problem is with Yale University, not Logos.

2. This collection isn't public domain because it is edited material (compiled in thematic volumes, analyzed and discussed in introductions and footnoted by scholars). Some (non-edited) portions of it are available in the public domain and as Kindle ebooks but most of it is not. Contrary to your statements, Amazon is not releasing these volumes in Kindle format for any price and much of this collection has never been published in any form before. The only way to access much of the (non-edited, Edwardsian) content was to travel to New Haven, CT and arrange private access to the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale Divinity school.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345918#Comment_345918

So are you saying that the 26 Volume Collected Works that Logos is publishing has content above and beyond the Works of Jonathan Edwards collection from Yale University Press found here- http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/onlinecatalog.asp?catalog=1105488 , also available on Amazon, and in Kindle formats for some of the volumes?

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345873#Comment_345873

Then don't purchase from Logos

I didn't

Problem resolved! Glad we were able to help.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345898#Comment_345898

I'm not attempting to be "incendiary"; it would seem within this conversation, you came out the gate with an ad hominem "pussycat".

Do you really suppose that his name is "toughski"? It sounds as though he is attempting to portray himself as a tough guy. Usually those types are all bluster hence "Pussycat."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345960#Comment_345960

Do you really suppose that his name is "toughski"? It sounds as though he is attempting to portray himself as a tough guy. Usually those types are all bluster hence "Pussycat."

Here's my internet alias everywhere but here, in fact this is my signature banner-

Want to jump into insults solely based on that?

Silly and illogical.

Regardless, I think we should get the discussion back on track with the OP.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345817#Comment_345817

I assure you most $30 screw drivers (Snap-on, Mac, Cooper, etc) are in reality superior to a Craftsman tool in every way,
Again, I know you are not driving your large family in a BMW SUV, do you? But why? BMW is superior to (insert your family car here) in EVERY WAY (emphasis mine to prove the point - "a better tool doth not a better experience make")

WoW toughski! ~ spoken like a real Craftsman, Kindle, pdf, text .doc kind of a guy. [:O] fwiw: At one point I bought a 37' Champion tour bus with blacked out windows and 3 axles. Driving it home from church I popped a wheelie on Kings Highway in Bridgeport, Michigan. I bet you can't do that with a BMW SUV. [6] One of my family had a new Porsche Boxster, a BMW and a Chevy Silverado pickup. Guess which was his favorite.

This is a typical fan-boy response: ill-informed and proud. Let's talk about facts, shall we?

Yeah, let us reduce the conversation to name-calling. I really don't mind being a fan-boy. it makes agruing with fence posts easier. [8-)] Maybe I missed your facts because I keep notes in OneNote and paper notebooks (-the way Thomas Edison preferred.) You don't see the value of an 18 passenger tour bus for your family transportation. I don't get excited about highlighting in a browser. Not only can I not read Logos on a Blackberry, I can't read my own phone number on one. I don't need e-ink to see my resources when I have a 73" HD TV I can use my Logos on.That setup will work even after I am legally blind.[H] Your Kindle can search one $.99 book at a time. My Logos4 can search 10,200+ books (be they free, $.99 or $168 books) all simultaneously and return the relative hits. Those are the facts I care about. And that is why I say unashamedly "Just between me and the fence post, Logos resources are superior." You are still a swell guy if you never agree with me.

I would much rather get a Logos file than a Kindle file.

That is why Logos should cost more than PDF, TXT and Kindle.

edit: I have never convinced a fence post I am right. However, I have converted over 7000 cows to my way of thinking as they walked past the fence post and eves-dropped on the discussion.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345969#Comment_345969

Want to jump into insults solely based on that?

Silly and illogical.

I agree that you are being silly and illogical for attempting to start trouble.

Kilroy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345972#Comment_345972

I really don't mind being a fan-boy. it makes agruing with fence posts easier.

A man's gotta know his limitations.

Kilroy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346043#Comment_346043

George;

It's good that you deleted your claim about converting 7000 cows. It was a load of bull anyway.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346047#Comment_346047

George;

It's good that you deleted your claim about converting 7000 cows. It was a load of bull anyway.

I deleted nothing so where do you come up with your bull?

Kilroy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346055#Comment_346055

It's your story !

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346059#Comment_346059

It's your story !

No, you're the one with the story while I'm the one with the truth.

Dave Moser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345931#Comment_345931

So are you saying that the 26 Volume Collected Works that Logos is publishing has content above and beyond the Works of Jonathan Edwards collection from Yale University Press found here- http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/onlinecatalog.asp?catalog=1105488 , also available on Amazon, and in Kindle formats for some of the volumes?

Yes, that's the collection. Did you look at the prices for individual volumes on the page you linked? Suddenly the price tag doesn't look so bad. I haven't found a single volume from the series in the Kindle store... can you point me in the right direction?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345972#Comment_345972

Those are the facts I care about.

so you admit that you, in fact, cannot do everything with a Logos resource that one can do with a Kindle resource?

One of my family had a new Porsche Boxster, a BMW and a Chevy Silverado pickup

One of my family members was had a boat that allowed him to survive the Flood. What is your point?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345733#Comment_345733

It is because of logic like this that Bible publishers sell low quality Bibles for $40-$75, Joel Osteen books flying off the shelves, and gimicky expensive Christian products.

I've read this answer several times and am totally lost as to what cheap Bibles, Joel Osteen and Christian fluff in the bookstores has got to do with my appreciation for the superiority of Logos products. And my Bibles are printed on India paper bound in calfskin, Morocco leather & goatskin. On top of that, most of them are even "authorized!" [:D]

If Joel Osteen offered me a lift in the Mojave Desert I would decline the offer and keep walking. I don't figure he will get me where he says he will. [*-)] I just don't see a connection in your statement,

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346092#Comment_346092

Because the only reason we have cheap Bibles, Joel Osteen books, and gimicky expensive Christian products is because the individuals who create and fill the shelves with the stuff believe there is brand loyalty. Putting out a product to a large group of people out there who don't do golf, or attend NFL games, or travel, or
collect stamps. They would rather buy
Bible study software (at any price) seeing as how it would be a less foolish expenditure
than the aforementioned activities.

BTW, I have a scripture inspired prayer shawl for sale if anyone is interested. http://www.tbn.org/about/newsletter/index.php/1170.htm

... because anything Christian is better to purchase at any price than a good set of clubs.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346079#Comment_346079

so you admit that you, in fact, cannot do everything with a Logos resource that one can do with a Kindle resource?

Logos resources will do everything and more than what I need them to do. I have not yet bought a Kindle because my netbook with WiFi and 3G can do more. Some day I will buy a Kindle. I will treat the little guy gently because I understand he can only handle one book at a time

One of my family members was had a boat that allowed him to survive the Flood. What is your point?

.Related to Noah? Ask him if his ark had been a canoe, how many dinosaurs he could have preserved through the world-wide flood. Point being, a BMW is not always the superior car. A Silverado pickup truck is superior vehicle for transporting a load of concrete blocks. Porsche and BMW fail the test. If you want to employ many references in Bible study Logos beats the others.easily.