Leiden Peshitta Problem

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This post has 15 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Mar 4 2012 12:14 PM

The scripts of the Leiden Peshitta are incorrectly showing end forms of the letter within words. I recall reading that this was a problem, but I'm surprised it hasn't been fixed now that Logos is charging for the product. Is there any word on when or if this problem will be fixed?

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 8 2012 3:03 AM

You can find the last discussion abut this problem here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/43766.aspx

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James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 8 2012 4:35 AM

Thanks for pointing me over there. Not the best news, and I'm not sure why wrong characters are affected by diacriticals, but at least the plan is to fix it ...eventually.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 8 2012 6:58 AM

Yes ... when you're truly a begger (on syriac), you can't be a chooser (on syriac). I'm just happy the morph-data/lexemes carried into L3.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 9 2012 2:26 PM

Apparently this is a rendering bug within .NET (or perhaps WPF) that is fixed in .NET4. If you notice, all of the characters that are improperly rendered in their final form are characters near a diacritical or vowel marking.

My guess is that the earlier versions of .NET mistake that vowel or diacritical as a word break and so use a final or unconnected form of a character. But, that guess, by itself is too simplistic. Looking at the Syriac NT, where vowel points are included, the situation becomes somewhat complex.

Take Matt 27:13, hydyn )mr lh pylTws l) $m( )nt km) mshdyn (lyk

Based upon )mr and lh it appears that final forms occur on characters with vowel pointing or diacriticals. But the mem in $m( is correct while the shin shows an unconnected form and both have vowel points. The same things happens in km) where the kaph has a diacritical and is displayed in final form while the mem which has a vowel point does not. IT is not just those characters at the beginning of  a word either because the mem in )mr is displayed in final form.

So, the case is complex but the newer .NET4 should fix the problem. We just have to wait until Logos is at a point where the software can be delivered built against .NET4. Until that time at least the OT portions of the Peshitta, which has diacriticals but not vowel points, has far fewer problems than the NT, which has vowel points. And the NT Peshitta text is available in many places on the net, even with the SEDRA database underlying the text.

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James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

Posts 350
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 23 2013 2:42 PM

Hi, my Peshitta font in Accordance shows the characters quite differently that in either my Logos Libronix or Logos 5. Do we have an update as to when the font issue will be fixed? Many thanks for all the great work you do in bringing these resources to us. Gregorio Billikopf

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 23 2013 3:13 PM

This is fixed in Logos 5 on Windows machines, which uses a newer version of .NET (.NET 4.5) for text rendering which fixed very nearly all of the Syriac rendering bugs (if I remember rightly, the Syriac Abbreviation Mark isn't working yet, though it works in the latest version of other Microsoft text rendering engines - I don't believe the Leiden Peshitta uses this mark, though).

I believe that there are still some issues with the native Mac display of Unicode Syriac.

Posts 350
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 24 2013 1:37 PM

Vincent, I really appreciate your answer. I just downloaded a number of Syriac fonts of the Estrangelo family. As I compare my Accordance Leiden Peshitta with that of Logos, however, the Logos is not the same, especially the ending character or A (?). I also compared this to other sources. I run the Peshitta on both my iPhone and on the PC. My Accordance looks precisely the same in both. In neither my iPhone nor my PC does the material look alike. Can you or anyone help me understand what may be happening? Many thanks! Gregorio

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2013 3:51 AM

If you could produce screenshots of all three that would help us figure out what you are seeing. As Vincent said, and he should know, L5 uses versions of .NET that render Syriac correctly. At least I haven't seen problems yet. As a matter of fact, I got confirmation of that before I even upgraded.

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James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

Posts 350
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2013 10:51 AM

Great, thanks for helping. Here are the two screenshots from my iPhone. One from Accordance (top or left with gray background) and one from Logos (bottom or right with white background). The Logos one looks very close to what the look is in my Logos 5 in my PC, so there is no need to send that screenshot, also. But if you want it, I can send it. Please check against your own Logos 5 version and you might see that they are almost identical.

 

 

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2013 11:13 AM

There's a couple things going on. First, you're looking at two different scripts. The first is Estrangelo, the second Serto. Second: the iOS devices aren't executing all the shaping rules of Open Type Syriac fonts, which accounts for the difference between what you're seeing in Logos on the iPhone and the Logos on the Windows computer (you should notice that on the Windows version (for Serto or Estrangelo), some letters change shape based on where they fall in the word and some letters are connected to adjacent letters).

Posts 350
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2013 1:21 PM

Vincent, first of all I am grateful for answering my questions. One of my favorite commentators, Henderson, uses some Syriac from time to time. So I went to Henderson on Isaiah 14:4, and the word exactor is also given in the Syriac precisely as it is given in my Logos 5. Hurray! Thank you Logos! I suppose the iPhone version will be corrected over time to more closely resemble this. The two fonts, the Accordance Estrangelo and the Logos Serto are indeed very, very, very different. Much more different, for instance, than Modern Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew fonts. One would not have to learn a whole new font system to switch reading between the two. My next question is: which of these two fonts is more likely to be used in Biblical articles? Can you point me to some Isaiah or other Biblical texts in Syriac in PDF format that I can use to further look at this issue? Is is completely a question of taste or are both utilized? I am trying to determine which of the two fonts would be better to include in my own commentary on Isaiah. Very best, Gregorio.  

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2013 2:40 PM

Both scripts are used. In the dead tree books on my shelf there seems to be some preference for Serto. But one of the nice things about using Unicode in digital resources is that you can flip to whichever script you are more comfortable with.

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2013 4:15 AM

As Vincent said, both are used. Lexicons often (but not always) will use an Estrangelo font for headwords at the top of the page and a Serto font within the page. As to resources which use a single font... It is all over the map. Some use Estrangelo, some use Serto, and some use Eastern Syriac scripts. Some also use a transliteration scheme which REALLY annoys me (I think it takes more effort to read than one of the scripts). Switching between Estrangelo and Serto become easy with just a little bit of exposure. Switching to Eastern Syriac scripts is a little more difficult because it uses a different vowel point system, but it does not take too much effort.

Also, as Vincent pointed out, you can change the font for Syriac resources in L5. But note, this is only for Syriac resources. The fonts are fixed and will not change for Syriac that shows up in things like the Passage Guide.

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James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

Posts 350
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2013 1:17 PM

James and Vincent, many thanks for your responses! I have quite a few texts I will be looking at and enjoying the process from a more educated perspective. James, I loved your Website / blog. Any chance you will be posting the Old Testament Syriac there as a PDF at some time? How about fonts? I downloaded some fonts but took a huge risk as my virus detector went crazy giving me warnings not to do so. Gladly, this time it worked well for me! Anyway, it is wonderful to have people such as the two of you posting and answering questions in these Logos forums! Muchas gracias, Gregorio.

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2013 3:54 PM

I'll make a quick reply, but as we are getting off the purpose of these forums, feel free to email me if you wish to continue the conversation.

Old Testament Syriac, very little chance having it in any format in the foresee-able future. But other Syriac texts, probably. I do want to finish the Odes and perhaps some other texts..

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James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

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