Princeton Theological Review (443 issues) - initial price too high

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This post has 150 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2012 8:43 PM

Phil Gons:

Alan Charles Gielczyk:

You know at $100 that's less than 25$¢ an issue, I'm in at $100.

$100 is probably the minimum price it'll require in order to cover the production cost. At $50 we'd need a lot more people to participate in Community Pricing, and it could take many years. So for those of you pushing for $50, you need to make sure you're getting 10 friends who don't use CP to jump on board and place a bid (and they need to bring 10 friends too)! Otherwise, moving your bids up to $100 is in everyone's best interest.

If current $ 50 bids were doubled to $ 100, then progress becomes 20 % so need 400 % more $ 100 bidders.

For $ 50 projected price (with 10 % progress) to cover 100 % of estimated production cost, need 900 % more $ 50 bidders (overall twice as many as $ 100 bidders).

Wonder about changing bid scale for http://www.logos.com/product/17817/princeton-theological-review to have $ 10 increments ? going from $ 50 to $ 210 ?

Thankful that community pricing bidding does not need money upfront, credit card is charged when item ships.  While resource is under development, have option to set aside a few dollars here and there for future purchase.  Anticipating digitization and proof reading of over 65,000 pages to take awhile.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 3:22 AM

Phil Gons:

Keep in mind that where it crosses and where it closes are almost never the same. If it crosses at $100, it will likely close a good bit below that. But if the community forces $50, it may never cross.

I'm happy to have you prove me wrong, but it's going to take a major community effort to pull that off.

Or it could go as soooo many CP projects, it crosses the line at a level that I am not willing to pay, and I am okay with that too.  I have noticed that I very very very seldom use CP resources.

Posts 18828
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 3:29 AM

Phil Gons:

Robert G. Mettler:

Could you give us a hint as to what it would take to bring this into production besides an unreasonable number of non-existent low bids?

http://www.logos.com/product/8567/new-schaff-herzog-encyclopedia-of-religious-knowledge

Robert

I think we'll probably see this one make it in the next year or so if we can pick up another few bids a day.

Oh that is so encouraging. (where's the sarcasm smiley?)

 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 7:04 AM

Phil Gons:
Keep in mind that where it crosses and where it closes are almost never the same. If it crosses at $100, it will likely close a good bit below that.

Also keep in mind that it is only the people who bid or raise after a resource has crossed the line that help drive the price down. If the going price is so high that everyone who is willing to pay it has already put in their bid, then there's no people left to drive that price down. 

We see this all the time. CPs that cross at $10 frequently close at half that price, or even lower. CPs that cross at $50 are lucky if they can shave off an extra 10-20%. And at $80-100 it becomes almost impossible to attract new bidders. 

So, given the kind of resource this is, my prognostication is that if it crosses at $50, it'll go for $20-30, but if it crosses at $100, it'll go for $80-100.

Phil Gons:
For comparison, Princeton Theological Review currently needs 7 times as many bids as Patrologia Graeca to cover product costs at the current community bid for each.

Given Logos' user base I would imagine that there is considerably more than 7 times as much interest for the PTR as there is for the PG at the current prices.

Btw, 2 hours ago I received an e-mail claiming that the "projected price" is $100, when, in fact, it is $50. That is really shooting this CP in the foot! The people who would have been willing to bid $50, but won't bid $100, are now very unlikely to even click on the link, let alone place a bid. Not to talk of the fact that lots of people don't even know what CP is, and don't know they can place a lower bid. They assume a price is a price. So you just lost a whole bunch of prospective $50 bidders.

(Not that I care much about this particular resource, but the reasoning is the same as for the CPs I do care about.)

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 117
C Devin Chaulk | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 7:08 AM

I REALLY want this resource, but at $100 it will be outside my budget. I'll have to stick with my $50 bid. There's no question that the resource will be worth more than $50 (and $100 for that matter), but with my book budget, I need to pace myself. Smile

Posts 1848
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 7:35 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Wonder about changing bid scale for http://www.logos.com/product/17817/princeton-theological-review to have $ 10 increments ? going from $ 50 to $ 210 ?

We probably will once a real peak gets established.

Posts 165
Wayne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 7:40 AM

Would this resource benefit it it was cut in half?  Get one half published and then start on the next halfs.

Or maybe divide it even smaller and first do the 107 issues of the Princeton Theological Review. That would include authors such as Vos, Machen, Warfield, Bavinick, etc. It would realistically go for $20 and as Logos continues to grow it would be easier to knock off the earlier journals.

Posts 1918
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 9:27 AM

Phil,

There have been a couple of oddities around this item.

1) Last week, right after it first became available and these discussions around the $50 price point started, the status went to "Under Development" (or whatever indicates that it had enough bids at $50).

2) I got an email this morning promoting the item with an expected price of $200 even though that's not what shows on the product detail page.

Not sure what to make of those occurences...

Donnie

 

Posts 205
LogosEmployee
Kent Hendricks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 9:51 AM

Donnie Hale:

2) I got an email this morning promoting the item with an expected price of $200 even though that's not what shows on the product detail page.

Donnie, this was our mistake. We sent out several emails last night projecting multiple prices. I'm sorry for our error.

Posts 205
LogosEmployee
Kent Hendricks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 10:06 AM

Timothy Ha:

http://www.logos.com/product/17817/princeton-theological-review

Let's bid it to something under 50 :-)

Thanks.

This might not be a good idea. This collection won't be able to hit 100% if everyone bid $50. Theoretically, it's possible, but consider: if every person who has ever bid on a Community Pricing product in the last year bid $50 on this, it wouldn't hit 100%. It wouldn't even come close.

In fact, if every person who downloaded one of our free book offers bid $50 on this project, it still wouldn't come close. So pushing the price down to attract more users won't really help move this over 100%. This collection is simply too big.

I know it's tempting to ask, "What might this be worth to someone else?" and then try to drive the price down so the “someone else” is more likely to bid. But that question doesn't really make sense if the “someone else” is asking it, too. Big Smile 

The real question to ask yourself is: What is this worth to me? What would I pay to have access to all this content?

To help answer this question, consider what the following items are worth to you:

  1. Primary source material. If Reformed folk were talking about it in the nineteenth century, they were talking about it in this journal. What were they talking about? Think of all the events in the nineteenth century that Christians were wrestling with: the rise of liberalism, the theory of evolution, biblical infallibility and authority, and hundreds of other topics the church is dealing with today. When the best Christian thinkers of the era tacked these issues in print, their work was published in this journal. If you’re a pastor and you want to find out what Old Princeton said about the text you’re preaching on next Sunday, this collection will tell you. Or if you’re doing research on the history of biblical interpretation, the history of American evangelicalism, or any number of other issues, this is your first stop for primary source material.
  2. Links. Depending on your library, there are probably tens of thousands of links to this material right now. Imagine what it will be like to have these links "turned on". 
  3. Content by the biggest names in Reformed theology. Maybe you own some works by Hodge, Warfield, and other recognizable names. Did you know there are numerous articles by these greats of Reformed theology in this collection? And most of this content has been buried in university libraries and out of reach for years. We want to bring it back.
  4. Shear volume of material. The biggest collections in our format are in the 10,000–15,000 page range. By contrast, this collection has around 65,000 pages of content. It's the biggest collection we've ever posted on Community Pricing (by far).
  5. Not just one collection, but nine. This is really a collection of nine separate journals that we’ve bundled all together.
  6. Most advanced digital version ever. Print copies are virtually non-existent, and digital copies are just scanned PDFs of the print. They’re not searchable, they’re blurry, and they’re really not practical to use for research. Imagine having Logos editions of this content!

Surely each of these points is worth more than $50, and there are lots of benefits I haven't even mentioned that make this collection so valuable.

If you really want to see this project succeed, here are some things you can do:

  1. Raise your bid to $100. It's just a start, but it will really help a lot. If you're willing to pay more, please bid more. This is really valuable content.
  2. Spread the word. If you've got a blog, write about why this project is so important, and then link to the page on Logos.com. If you're on Twitter, then Tweet a link to the page every once-in-a-while. You can even use an app like Hootsuite to schedule out your Tweets—maybe once every few weeks for the next year, for example. Share the news on Facebook. Write a link on your whiteboard at school. Add a screenshot to your Pinterest board. Send an email to the students at your seminary. Hire a local skywriter to promote it…. You get the idea. Big Smile
  3. Make sure your pastor knows about it. And if you’re a pastor, make sure the other pastors in your community and your denomination know about this.

 

Posts 44
Schamma | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 10:15 AM

Thank you, Kent, for the very open and helpful explanation!

I raise my bid to $ 100.

Posts 929
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 10:43 AM

The CP description page needs to be changed because the projected price is $50. It sounds as though it should display $100 as the projected price. I bid $50 because that was the projected price and this would be a nice collection to have. Is it worth $100 to me? It is definitely worth $100 and more, but not to me in my current situation and needs.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 117
C Devin Chaulk | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 10:54 AM

Contrary to my own comment this morning, I have raised my bid to $100. Maybe by the time this is rolled out, I'll have $100 left in my book budget and opt to purchase this set. (Fingers crossed...)

Posts 205
LogosEmployee
Kent Hendricks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 10:56 AM

Bill Moore:

The CP description page needs to be changed because the projected price is $50. 

The projected price changes depending on how everyone bids. It will change only if enough people bid higher. Smile

 

Posts 929
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 11:12 AM

Kent Hendricks:

Bill Moore:

The CP description page needs to be changed because the projected price is $50. 

The projected price changes depending on how everyone bids. It will change only if enough people bid higher. Smile

Hi Kent. $50 was the projected price when I first received the email notification about it as a new CP offering. Somebody has to establish that price at the start, right? And the projected price hasn't changed, to my knowledge, since I first saw it.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 11:51 AM

C Devin Chaulk:

Contrary to my own comment this morning, I have raised my bid to $100. Maybe by the time this is rolled out, I'll have $100 left in my book budget and opt to purchase this set. (Fingers crossed...)

If you put aside a dollar a week for the next year, you will likely still have at least another year of waiting before this collection gets to production.

Posts 2278
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 11:58 AM

Thanks for the helpful and detailed explanation, Kent.

I have upped my bid accordingly.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 12:13 PM

Bill Moore:

Kent Hendricks:

Bill Moore:

The CP description page needs to be changed because the projected price is $50. 

The projected price changes depending on how everyone bids. It will change only if enough people bid higher. Smile

Hi Kent. $50 was the projected price when I first received the email notification about it as a new CP offering. Somebody has to establish that price at the start, right? And the projected price hasn't changed, to my knowledge, since I first saw it.

For awhile, projected price was $ 225 (e.g. when this thread was initially posted), then enough $ 50 bids were placed to lower projected price to $ 50, which would needs a lot more Logos users to bid.

Personally raised my bid.  A bid of $ 100 is a 90 % discount compared to hard copy purchase, but considering amount of pages to digitize for use in Logos, may want to consider a higher bid.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 929
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 12:32 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Bill Moore:

Kent Hendricks:

Bill Moore:

The CP description page needs to be changed because the projected price is $50. 

The projected price changes depending on how everyone bids. It will change only if enough people bid higher. Smile

Hi Kent. $50 was the projected price when I first received the email notification about it as a new CP offering. Somebody has to establish that price at the start, right? And the projected price hasn't changed, to my knowledge, since I first saw it.

For awhile, projected price was $ 225 (e.g. when this thread was initially posted), then enough $ 50 bids were placed to lower projected price to $ 50, which would needs a lot more Logos users to bid.

Personally raised my bid.  A bid of $ 100 is a 90 % discount compared to hard copy purchase, but considering amount of pages to digitize for use in Logos, may want to consider a higher bid.

Keep Smiling Smile

Interesting about the $225 price. I never saw that. Thanks for letting me know.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 767
Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2012 12:56 PM

Kent Hendricks:

Timothy Ha:

http://www.logos.com/product/17817/princeton-theological-review

Let's bid it to something under 50 :-)

Thanks.

This might not be a good idea. This collection won't be able to hit 100% if everyone bid $50. Theoretically, it's possible, but consider: if every person who has ever bid on a Community Pricing product in the last year bid $50 on this, it wouldn't hit 100%. It wouldn't even come close.

In fact, if every person who downloaded one of our free book offers bid $50 on this project, it still wouldn't come close. So pushing the price down to attract more users won't really help move this over 100%. This collection is simply too big.

I know it's tempting to ask, "What might this be worth to someone else?" and then try to drive the price down so the “someone else” is more likely to bid. But that question doesn't really make sense if the “someone else” is asking it, too. Big Smile 

The real question to ask yourself is: What is this worth to me? What would I pay to have access to all this content?

To help answer this question, consider what the following items are worth to you:

  1. Primary source material. If Reformed folk were talking about it in the nineteenth century, they were talking about it in this journal. What were they talking about? Think of all the events in the nineteenth century that Christians were wrestling with: the rise of liberalism, the theory of evolution, biblical infallibility and authority, and hundreds of other topics the church is dealing with today. When the best Christian thinkers of the era tacked these issues in print, their work was published in this journal. If you’re a pastor and you want to find out what Old Princeton said about the text you’re preaching on next Sunday, this collection will tell you. Or if you’re doing research on the history of biblical interpretation, the history of American evangelicalism, or any number of other issues, this is your first stop for primary source material.
  2. Links. Depending on your library, there are probably tens of thousands of links to this material right now. Imagine what it will be like to have these links "turned on". 
  3. Content by the biggest names in Reformed theology. Maybe you own some works by Hodge, Warfield, and other recognizable names. Did you know there are numerous articles by these greats of Reformed theology in this collection? And most of this content has been buried in university libraries and out of reach for years. We want to bring it back.
  4. Shear volume of material. The biggest collections in our format are in the 10,000–15,000 page range. By contrast, this collection has around 65,000 pages of content. It's the biggest collection we've ever posted on Community Pricing (by far).
  5. Not just one collection, but nine. This is really a collection of nine separate journals that we’ve bundled all together.
  6. Most advanced digital version ever. Print copies are virtually non-existent, and digital copies are just scanned PDFs of the print. They’re not searchable, they’re blurry, and they’re really not practical to use for research. Imagine having Logos editions of this content!

Surely each of these points is worth more than $50, and there are lots of benefits I haven't even mentioned that make this collection so valuable.

If you really want to see this project succeed, here are some things you can do:

  1. Raise your bid to $100. It's just a start, but it will really help a lot. If you're willing to pay more, please bid more. This is really valuable content.
  2. Spread the word. If you've got a blog, write about why this project is so important, and then link to the page on Logos.com. If you're on Twitter, then Tweet a link to the page every once-in-a-while. You can even use an app like Hootsuite to schedule out your Tweets—maybe once every few weeks for the next year, for example. Share the news on Facebook. Write a link on your whiteboard at school. Add a screenshot to your Pinterest board. Send an email to the students at your seminary. Hire a local skywriter to promote it…. You get the idea. Big Smile
  3. Make sure your pastor knows about it. And if you’re a pastor, make sure the other pastors in your community and your denomination know about this.

 

Great post Kent. At $150 it is still just $.34 an issue, for the wealth of information I am officially upping my bid!

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