Greek education/training

Page 1 of 2 (24 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 23 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 10
Steve | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012 9:18 AM

If I could get a formal degree at a local Christian university, BIOLA in my case, how much Greek education would I need to be able to fully use Logos 4?  I just want to know how advanced an education a person needs to fully utilize Logos 4 Platinum's Greek (and Hebrew?) facilities. For example, is an M. Div. sufficient or would a person need more?

 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2012 9:52 AM

Welcome Big Smile

Apologies: not know how much education is needed for full utilization.  Personally still living and learning.

Thankful for Logos Greek Morphology visual filters; wiki has Extended Tips for Visual Filters => Examples of visual filters so can highlight range of verbal expression in Greek and English.

Logos offers => Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software

Thankful for Michael Heiser's companion web site to Futato's "Beginning Biblical Hebrew" => http://michaelsheiser.com/HWH.htm

Thankful for Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament

Hoping for more pre-orders => Lexham Discourse Hebrew Bible Bundle (6 vols.) so resource can be developed.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 155
Pedro | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2012 10:16 AM

Steve Carmeli:

For example, is an M. Div. sufficient or would a person need more?

Hello and welcome Steve,

Not all M.Div programs are equivalent. I would say that with one year of NT Greek under your belt plus the "learn biblical Greek with Logos DVDs" you should be able to use the tool to its full potential.

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2012 10:43 AM

Steve Carmeli:

If I could get a formal degree at a local Christian university, BIOLA in my case, how much Greek education would I need to be able to fully use Logos 4?  I just want to know how advanced an education a person needs to fully utilize Logos 4 Platinum's Greek (and Hebrew?) facilities. For example, is an M. Div. sufficient or would a person need more?

To use Logos to its full potential, you'd probably need a PhD in Greek, if not another one in Linguistics.

However, to use the Greek and Hebrew tools in Logos, in an educated and careful way (so as not to read in the Greek, what isn't there), would require one or two years of Greek at the college level, and/or a year of Biblical Greek (Koine) at the graduate (seminary) level.

It is possible to get started in original language work in Logos knowing next to nothing (the reverse interlinears make some kinds of studies very, very easy), but there are a lot of pitfalls to avoid, and the less training you have the more vulnerable you are to them.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 452
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2012 12:18 PM

I've been working my way through Greek for the Rest of Us: Using Greek Tools without Mastering Biblical Greek, by William Mounce, and I've found it very helpful. It provides a bare minimum of Greek knowledge, but it's enough to help me understand commentaries and other Greek resources in Logos better. He also does a good job emphasizing that at this level of Greek, the reader shouldn't be making any independent conclusions not backed up by knowledgeable commentators.

I don't plan to stop there though, I'm just trying to get some immediately applicable knowledge and a head start for when I start Greek at seminary.

Posts 896
Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2012 5:04 PM

Persistence will make up for a lack of brilliance (or professional education).

Posts 2951
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2012 5:22 PM

A basic knowledge of Greek will certainly help you benefit from the many language tools available in Logos.  I am not sure anyone ever is able to "fully use" Logos, because there is always more to learn.  But it will surely help.

If you have the opportunity to study Greek, I would highly recommend taking advantage of that opportunity.  It will greatly benefit your study of God's Word. 

I took far more Greek that was required of me at Asbury Seminary, and Asbury required far more than the average seminary.  In fact, I had to take 6 hours of Greek that did not even count toward my degree before they let me start taking Greek exegesis courses that did count toward my degree.  How I resented those hours not counting at the time!  Now I wish they had made me take 12 hours Greek before starting.  (They now count those 6 hours toward the degree as elective hours.  The whimps!)  I will not even say what I think of a seminary that does not require Greek.

One more thing, there is no "magic bullet" or "short cut" or "easy way" to learn Greek.  It takes practice and persistence.  It is worth it.

I am blessed by your desire to study God's Word seriously.  I commend you, and will pray for you.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2724
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2012 8:23 AM

The above wisdom is GREAT!

I have done both undergrad and graduate work in Biblical languages - In the first year of a Biblical language (Greek or Hebrew) you will learn how the words are formed with case and endings and many schools will teach the difference between "tense" and "aspect" (which is HUGE for an English speaker to grasp when dealing with Biblical languages). In the 2nd year you will learn how those words interact with each other to communicate thoughts of the author. (this is especially where you learn what Richard was warning about not reading in what is not there)

After viewing the logos DVD set on Biblical languages, I believe they do a good job of showing how Logos Software (Especially Reverse Interlinears) displays the information you learn in first year. Many of the Logos resources with Lexham in the title are directed at what you learn in 2nd year and the exploding field of text linguistics.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2012 8:48 AM

Steve Carmeli:

If I could get a formal degree at a local Christian university, BIOLA in my case, how much Greek education would I need to be able to fully use Logos 4?  I just want to know how advanced an education a person needs to fully utilize Logos 4 Platinum's Greek (and Hebrew?) facilities. For example, is an M. Div. sufficient or would a person need more?

 

Four years of classical and a couple of years of Koine plus years of experience in using it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 10
Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 3:00 AM

To all respondents,

Mitchell's Mounce suggestion looks like the most direct route to SOME progress in Greek as it is the most financially realistic for me now. Mounce has two publications that, together, are less than $100.  I was just curious as to how deep Logos software went into the grammar of the original languages. When R. DeRuiter mentioned a Ph.D., I was frightened away from the prospect. Regarding the Logos DVDs, I am tired of spending so much money on Logos software, owning the Platinum plus more, but this may be the step necc. to make the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Blessings to you all for your gracious, wide-ranging wisdom.

Steve

Posts 450
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 5:59 AM

Steve:

 

Right now on Mounce web page you can get his lectures through the BBG book for $99 with a free bonus gift as well. If you get BGG through amazon and his lectures, you could spend less than $150 and get a huge jump start.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 6:03 AM

Steve Carmeli:
Regarding the Logos DVDs, I am tired of spending so much money on Logos software, owning the Platinum plus more, but this may be the step necc. to make the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Have seen Logos DVD's => Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software on sale a couple times: not know if (when) for repeat.

Looking at Logos package comparison => http://www.logos.com/comparison noticed Scholar's Platinum includes a reference Greek Grammar => Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research plus some introductory Greek Grammar resources; may want to look at resources in your library:

type:grammar greek

Caveat: Master Library Builder (2,010 vols.) added 11 Greek Grammatical resources to my library, including => A Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament, for Students Familiar with the Elements of Greek (an intermediate grammar) and => Learning New Testament Greek Now and Then (beginning) that has Logos Greek Morphological codes in the 2nd chapter for Libronix 3, which have changed a bit in Logos 4: e.g. Libronix 3 NMSG became NGSM in Logos 4 for Noun, Genitive, Singular, Masculine.  Chapter 3 of Learning New Testament Greek Now and Then introduces sentence diagramming with using morphological coding (for word parsing).

Thread => Another Interlinear Q. Original Greek and English Translation includes an observation about Greek and English interlinear usage (caution).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 6:15 AM

Take a look at iTunes, especially iTunes U. I haven't checked for a while, but there should be several Greek and Hebrew courses there, perfectly free (apart from the books, of course).

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 7:07 AM

Take it or leave it, but I've studied Classical, Koine, Homeric, Patristic etc up to PhD level, and in my opinion one of the only textbooks worth the effort is Hansen and Quinn's Greek: An Intensive Course, with the slight caveat that if you're really struggling, start with Athenaze and move on to H and Q the second year. The other textbooks I've seen (and I've seen a lot) - especially ones popular in seminaries - simply don't work in my opinion. I'm sure the authors of those works would disagree, and I mean so disrespect, but that's my two cents. I listened to the excerpts for the Logos Greek course and the accents weren't even pronounced over the correct letters, and the words were spoken with a thick American accent - not something that would inspire much confidence in me. Work with Hansen and Quin, listen to good spoken Greek (Erasmian or modern, I'd recommend the latter), and get started in the best way you can - hearing is also a very important component of learning (and for those who want to learn Latin, check out Evan Millner on You Tube, which I'd recommend along with Wheelock's).

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 7:35 AM

Steve, you have received a lot of good answers already. I will try to answer your question best as I understand it. 

Steve Carmeli:
If I could get a formal degree at a local Christian university, BIOLA in my case, how much Greek education would I need to be able to fully use Logos 4?

BIOLA is a fine school and will teach you Greek well. Classroom study has many benefits over self-study. I would recommend picking up at least one year of classroom Greek. If it works in your degree plan and you are enjoying the studies, go for a second year.

Steve Carmeli:
I just want to know how advanced an education a person needs to fully utilize Logos 4 Platinum's Greek (and Hebrew?) facilities.

The hard part of your question is the "fully utilize" part. I am not one of "them" but there are a few translators and many trained linguists who read the forums. From what I have gathered, they make good use of Logos' capabilities. So a M. Div. is not necessary to "fully utilize" Logos Platinum. But you will not find yourself bored or limited with it either. Depending on the direction your studies take you, you can add many more study resources. (Hebrew, Coptic, Classical Greek & Latin.)

One year of Greek at BIOLA will be a great help. Two years would be fantastic. Or you could just use several of the resources others have recommended.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1927
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 7:37 AM

Steve Carmeli:

If I could get a formal degree at a local Christian university, BIOLA in my case, how much Greek education would I need to be able to fully use Logos 4?  I just want to know how advanced an education a person needs to fully utilize Logos 4 Platinum's Greek (and Hebrew?) facilities. For example, is an M. Div. sufficient or would a person need more?

Way back in the 3rd Grade I was presented with a Bible of my own by my then local congregation so I could read and study the Bible.  Could I understand it all then?  No way.  I have a seminary degree and am still learning.  While I don't have a PhD, I have talked with more than a few who say they are still learning.  Does this mean that my congregation was wrong to give me a Bible of my own back then when I couldn't understand it all?  By no means!  I have learned much and been fed greatly through my life through it.

Logos is a tool that can go pretty far.  Not having to spend as much time looking things up in various resources is a huge time saver and makes me feel more free to follow up on those hunches that may be nothing but may be interesting.

How you are a steward of your time and money is something for you to figure out with God.  Some are called into more - others less.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 8:48 AM

Dean053:
one of the only textbooks worth the effort is Hansen and Quinn's Greek: An Intensive Course, with the slight caveat that if you're really struggling, start with Athenaze and move on to H and Q the second year.

I'm still rather partial to the text used in my 1st yr classical Greek course—Crosby & Schaeffer.  At the time I really disliked the book, but that was largely because its printing was apparently made from old plates which made the text smudgy and hard to read.  Since then the newer editions have cleaned up the typeface.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 8:54 AM

George Somsel:

I'm still rather partial to the text used in my 1st yr classical Greek course—Crosby & Schaeffer.  At the time I really disliked the book, but that was largely because its printing was apparently made from old plates which made the text smudgy and hard to read.  Since then the newer editions have cleaned up the typeface.

We used Anne Groton's Alpha to Omega. Not a book I'd recommend! 

Posts 897
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 9:09 AM

BIOLA?

If you live in California, give this upcoming workshop a try:

http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/greek-workshop-fresno2012/

I'm not a Greek instructor, but I've known Dr. Buth for a number of years, and I attended last year's workshop - in the photo that's me on the far left (as you face the picture) in the second row, wearing the purplish shirt and beige jeans with my hands on my hips and clean-shaven - Dr. Buth is standing/waving behind me wearing the floppy hat.

You'll need to sign up quickly and order the materials now so you can spend several weeks listening to and going through at least Living Koine Greek Part 1 (picture book and MP3 audio). It will give you a radically different way of learning NT Greek - as a living language using the closest approximation to first-century pronunciation that is currently known, developed by Dr. Buth and explained here http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Greek_Pronunciation_2008.pdf

I understand that as of last week 20 students had already signed up. You can read some descriptions of the experience here:http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=751

including one instructor's great success using the materials and method at his seminary.

UNFORTUNATELY my lack of a venue for teaching, as well as lack of time (I have a full-time non-ministerial/non-seminary job and am not in a church that would or could have a class for this) has left me pretty much where I was with this last summer with no subsequent progress - regress would be more like it. I'd love to go again, but I have no practical way of applying what I'd learn, so I can't justify the repeated cost to myself. Oh, well... maybe some here will go and spread the word!

FYI, Φιλιππος in the center of the picture (click on it and zoom in), balding in the plaid shirt and raising his left hand to wave is A. Philip Brown II, author of these books, some of which you may have seen (i.e., the Reader's Hebrew Bible): http://www.amazon.com/A.-Philip-Brown-II/e/B001JPCG52/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 23 2012 9:21 AM

Eric Weiss:
in the photo that's me on the far left (as you face the picture) in the second row, wearing the purplish shirt and beige jeans with my hands on my hips and clean-shaven - Dr. Buth is standing/waving behind me wearing the floppy hat.

What was that?  Go goofy day?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Page 1 of 2 (24 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS