Mormon Studies Collection (45 vols.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2022 10:47 PM

David Jonescue:
There will never be a day in Logos that we are going to have quotes from the Dalai Lama, Muhammad, or the Pearl of Great Price. It is not going to happen.

Is it possible to understand Gregory Palamas's theology or Francis of Assisi's biography without a sympathetic understanding of Islam especially in it's Sufi aspects? Is it possible to understand Thomas Merton or Alan Watts without a basic understanding of certain schools of Buddhism? Can you understand Ramon Llull without an understanding of the Judaism of the Kabbalah? Those are the examples that first come to mind for examples of non-Christian theologians/philosophers affecting Christian theologians sufficiently that you must understand the former. That is ignoring the obvious Greek philosophers influence and omitting Hinduism, Taoism, and a few others where no major name came to mind. Mind you, an equal list of Christianity influencing other religions is also possible ... simply not relevant for showing that Logos should provide resource from other religions without them having an apologetic/polemic purpose.

You should also note that some progressive Christian lectionaries include gnostic Christian texts. Also from the progressive Christian side is A New New Testament: A Bible for the Twenty-first Century Combining Traditional and Newly Discovered Texts Faithlife Ebooks. Never underestimate how broad a range of beliefs Logos/Verbum supports.

In the spirit of full disclosure for the newer members of the forum community: my own beliefs are very conservative to the point of being positively medieval according to my pastor. However, I have sympathy for, but not belief in, the perennial philosophy perspective..

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2022 11:00 PM

David Jonescue:
There is a difference between being respectful and making people feel welcome; and ignoring traditional Christianity to do so.

I suspect you and I have very different definitions of "traditional Christianity". However, our differences are irrelevant. Rather I have bolded the relevant guidelines:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

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Thank you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible Software.

The topic of who is or is not under the umbrella of "Christian" is quintessentially theological, especially when using definitions outside the generic dictionary definition.

David Jonescue:
Nowhere in the forum guidelines that you posted does it say we have to pretend everyone is Christian in the name of charity.

I'm not suggesting that you pretend anything. I'm saying the forums are not the place to indicate you think it would be "pretending" to leave your theology at the door.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 4:08 AM

David Jonescue:
There will never be a day in Logos that we are going to have quotes from the Dalai Lama, Muhammad, or the Pearl of Great Price. It is not going to happen.

You might be surprised. You can buy the Qu'ran here:The Qu'ran (English) | Logos Bible Software 

Posts 1300
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 6:21 AM

David Jonescue:
There is a reason Faithlife does not offer Mormon works; and it is not because they are one of us.

David, you can't really be that naive?  Faithlife put the Mormon Collection up for customer interest ... if they get enough 'votes' they'll produce it.  Been doing that for many years now.  

And as above, through the years, they've offered a host of viewpoints, even a separate platform (Noet), many views not matching their own.  Recently they moved Noet over to the main app ... no shyness there ... business.

And quite frankly, Logos is the absolute best app to demonstrate the errors of modern Christianity (if you'd like). If one is doubting their faith, Logos can quickly finish it off (and of course, the opposite too).

Now, back to the Mormon collection, and this is 'my' guess.  Ben put out a great grouping of modern and useful LDS resources, great for apologetic use ... and there's an oldie collection collecting votes now.  My 'bet' is that Ben's grouping wouldn't get bought ... the huge Mormon 'interest' is largely just curiousity and cheap price.

Added:

This morning I was over in Accordance, re-arranging my library ... I was reminded I have 3 Japanese Bible translations.  I wondered if Logos ever brought back (they used to have a Japanese interlinear) any Japanese Bibles.  Nope.  But I was excited to see Faithlife's special offering:

Pornography, Ideology, and the Internet: A Japanese Adult Video Actress in Mainland China 

Posts 1411
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 8:32 AM

DMB:

Added:

This morning I was over in Accordance, re-arranging my library ... I was reminded I have 3 Japanese Bible translations.  I wondered if Logos ever brought back (they used to have a Japanese interlinear) any Japanese Bibles.  Nope.  But I was excited to see Faithlife's special offering:

Pornography, Ideology, and the Internet: A Japanese Adult Video Actress in Mainland China 

That’s … downright bizarre from the topic right down to the $99.50 price tag 😰

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Bridget Jack Jeffries | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 9:03 AM

Rick:
You might be surprised. You can buy the Qu'ran here:The Qu'ran (English) | Logos Bible Software

The Logos collection I posted in my comment on the last page had quite a few texts from other religions, including Islam, Buddhism, and Wicca. It had the Book of Mormon in it. 

I did my master's thesis at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School on a Mormon topic; my committee consisted of Douglas A. Sweeney (who has books on Logos), John D. Woodbridge (who has books on Logos) and Maxine Hanks (a well-known feminist who was excommunicated from the Mormon church in 1993 and later re-admitted). 

Kyle Beshears at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has done both his master's thesis and doctoral dissertation on Mormon topics. 

Of course, evangelicals like Craig L. Blomberg, Gerald R. McDermott, and Carl Mosser have engaged academically with Mormonism. Frank Beckwith as well (ex-evangelical turned Catholic). 

Mormonism represents an academic area of interest for many of us in the evangelical world. A repository of Mormon texts in Logos would be useful for that reason alone. 

Posts 114
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 9:18 AM

The Qu'ran is there for apologetic purposed.  The Mormon material is there for the same purposes.   Just because Islamic and Mormon resources are offered on Logos does not mean Logos is including them in orthodox Christianity.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 9:39 AM

Jeffrey Visser:

The Qu'ran is there for apologetic purposed.  The Mormon material is there for the same purposes.   Just because Islamic and Mormon resources are offered on Logos does not mean Logos is including them in orthodox Christianity.

I do recall back in the days of Libronix 3, they had to make a disclaimer that they were not equating it with Scripture when they first offered the Quran for sale. And some people were still troubled by that.

Speaking personally, I prefer to research the (translated) texts instead of relying on what others describe them as. I've seen others misrepresent my own religion because of that and I try (don't always succeed) not to do the same.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 9:52 AM

Jeffrey Visser:
The Qu'ran is there for apologetic purposed.

There is certainly a portion of the Logos/Verbum market whose interest in the Qu'ran is not apologetic but rather interfaith dialogue. I get 150 results when I query Logos.com for "interfaith" e.g.

Others have an interest for purposes of tracing the history of theological concepts or in the mutual influences on cultural boundaries e.g. how religious teaching tales change as they cross cultural and religious boundaries.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 114
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 9:58 AM

David Wanat:

I do recall back in the days of Libronix 3, they had to make a disclaimer that they were not equating it with Scripture when they first offered the Quran for sale. And some people were still troubled by that.

Yes, they have come a long way. My library has 3 different English translations of the Qu'ran and one Arabic version along with many books on Islam. I doubt anyone confused Islam for Christianity because they posted these books for apologetic reasons.

Just like the rest of us, the decision makers at Logos will be accountable in that great day for decisions they made that drew people towards Christ or away from Christ as well as what motivated their decision - User counts, money, desire to spread the gospel, putting tools in the hands of teachers, preachers, and evangelists, etc.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 10:08 AM

Jeffrey Visser:
Just like the rest of us, the decision makers at Logos will be accountable in that great day for decisions they made that drew people towards Christ or away from Christ as well as what motivated their decision

Please spare me your theology. Knowledge per se is neutral with regards to drawing/pushing towards Christ. For some, curiosity about God's creation is an expression of appreciation for all of God's creation. If your beliefs are true, additional knowledge on any topic is no threat.

I'd better bow out of this thread - both to stay within the guidelines (which this post skirts distinguishing between theology and epistemology Geeked) and to preserve my own Christian equanimity.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 114
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 10:22 AM

MJ. Smith:

Jeffrey Visser:
Just like the rest of us, the decision makers at Logos will be accountable in that great day for decisions they made that drew people towards Christ or away from Christ as well as what motivated their decision

Please spare me your theology. Knowledge per se is neutral with regards to drawing/pushing towards Christ. For some, curiosity about God's creation is an expression of appreciation for all of God's creation. If your beliefs are true, additional knowledge on any topic is no threat.

This is not theology and this is not about knowledge pushing someone toward Christ  - though very few books are knowledge without persuasion.  This is purely about all people being judged by a holy God who will judge their hearts and motivations - something none of us can know or judge on.   

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 11:07 AM

Jeffrey Visser:

Just like the rest of us, the decision makers at Logos will be accountable in that great day for decisions they made that drew people towards Christ or away from Christ as well as what motivated their decision - User counts, money, desire to spread the gospel, putting tools in the hands of teachers, preachers, and evangelists, etc.

I don't believe that FL makes these resources available out of religious indifferentism or syncretism. Nor do I believe they put money above their religious beliefs. I find that having resources outside of my own beliefs for research purposes is a legitimate service FL provides, whether apologetics or religious dialogue. So, I think that's a bit uncalled for.

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Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 11:25 AM

Deborah Alves:

Yes. "Authoritive" in the Mormon religion is fluid, as fluid as their "Apostles" grant "authority" to "authorized" work.

If you use their work against them then it has to be "Authorized" by their council or "Apostles". For Example McConkie's first edition of Mormon Doctrine is not authorized because it spoke against the Catholic Church, and they had him revise it for the second edition, which is "Authorized".

Personally, I think they decided to use that as an excuse to make themselves appear more Christian. Becasue when McConkie wrote it their belief system was openly AntiChristian.

Yeah, this recounting is inaccurate on multiple levels. 

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

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Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 12:45 PM

David Wanat:

Jeffrey Visser:

Just like the rest of us, the decision makers at Logos will be accountable in that great day for decisions they made that drew people towards Christ or away from Christ as well as what motivated their decision - User counts, money, desire to spread the gospel, putting tools in the hands of teachers, preachers, and evangelists, etc.

I don't believe that FL makes these resources available out of religious indifferentism or syncretism. Nor do I believe they put money above their religious beliefs. I find that having resources outside of my own beliefs for research purposes is a legitimate service FL provides, whether apologetics or religious dialogue. So, I think that's a bit uncalled for.



I did not assign motivation to anyone.  I gave several motivations one could have - some honorable and some not. In a subsequent post, I also specifically said that I could not and would not assign motivation to the decision makers. I do stand by my inference that an action could be done that may or may not be a sin based on the motivation and intentions of the action. Again, not my place to judge.

I do agree with you that there is a broader use than just apologetics that includes research and religious dialogue for purposes outside of apologetics.  I have books across many denominations and religions in logos and enjoy some of them for the learning experience apart of evangelism and apologetics.  You do make a good point.


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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2022 12:49 PM

David Wanat:

I don't believe that FL makes these resources available out of religious indifferentism or syncretism. Nor do I believe they put money above their religious beliefs. I find that having resources outside of my own beliefs for research purposes is a legitimate service FL provides, whether apologetics or religious dialogue...

That's my sense as well. I personally find that part of the value of the Logos ecosystem to me is that it provides, in essence, a reasonably well curated bookstore specializing in works useful to thoughtful Christians (for a reasonably broad, but still meaningful definition of "Christian").  Of course, not everything is of interest to me, but in most cases I can see why they offer the books that they carry.

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