Re: Slaves, Women and Homosexuals (Suggestion)

Page 1 of 3 (41 items) 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 40 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 383
Stephen Thorp | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012 6:30 AM

 

Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermenutics of Cultural Analysis by William J. Webb. IVP 2001

I'd like to see this book made available through Logos. It's not the snappiest of titles, but although it's more to do with developing a process of hermenutics against all sorts of tricky issues, I've found it incredibly useful when it comes to taking a biblical view on the issues raised in it's title - and was pivotal in transforming my own understanding of women in ministry. Not everyone will agree with it's conclusions but everybody will benefit from reading it

 

.

 

It's been out a while and deserves the Logos treatment. Big Smile

 

Posts 26054
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 13 2012 6:32 AM

Yes

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 3:59 PM

Yes

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 5:07 PM

Stephen Thorp:

 

Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermenutics of Cultural Analysis by William J. Webb. IVP 2001

I'd like to see this book made available through Logos. It's not the snappiest of titles, but although it's more to do with developing a process of hermenutics against all sorts of tricky issues, I've found it incredibly useful when it comes to taking a biblical view on the issues raised in it's title - and was pivotal in transforming my own understanding of women in ministry. Not everyone will agree with it's conclusions but everybody will benefit from reading it

 

Personally I have no issues with women in the ministry. Remember Deborah - Judges 4.

I would be interested in reading it, I think I will look for it in hard copy. can you supply some info on the ISBN?

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 5:58 PM

Room4more:

Personally I have no issues with women in the ministry. Remember Deborah - Judges 4.

I would be interested in reading it, I think I will look for it in hard copy. can you supply some info on the ISBN?

Just google the title.

Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 7:36 PM

Room4more:

Personally I have no issues with women in the ministry. Remember Deborah - Judges 4.

I would be interested in reading it, I think I will look for it in hard copy. can you supply some info on the ISBN?

I found this brief (and somewhat dated) CNN interview with Voddie Baucham very interesting. They even discuss Deborah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmHwHF1A1Do

 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 8:17 PM

Thanks Josh, yet I would think that Baucham would be better equipped to speak concerning Isaiah 3, wherein I do not read that women were in leadership and this cause their fall[Isa 1:1]............ Interestingly enough Deborah apparently ruled[judge] for 40yrs...5:31, by God's direction. So I fail to see how his statement [T-3:00-3:35] really has much merit.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 8:52 PM

Josh,

Interestingly enough after watching the video a few times I have often found after talking with people with this understanding that they also will conclude that Paul's guidelines set-forth in 1 Tim 3:1-7 mean that a woman cannot be a minister, yet fail to realize that Paul left Timothy in-charge of a church, regardless of the fact that we have no record that Timothy was married, or had children, and most importantly that he was still a young man. So I have to ask – did Paul contradict himself? Or was he encourageing a ‘double-standard’[namely: 'do as I say and not as I do]?

Something to ponder.............

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 11:13 PM

Room4more:

Thanks Josh, yet I would think that Baucham would be better equipped to speak concerning Isaiah 3, wherein I do not read that women were in leadership and this cause their fall[Isa 1:1]............ Interestingly enough Deborah apparently ruled[judge] for 40yrs...5:31, by God's direction. So I fail to see how his statement [T-3:00-3:35] really has much merit.

I was able to find an article written by a woman on this specific topic, she even addresses the Isaiah 3 passage that Voddie brought up.

http://www.gotquestions.org/woman-president.html

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 6:28 AM

Josh:

I was able to find an article written by a woman on this specific topic, she even addresses the Isaiah 3 passage that Voddie brought up.

http://www.gotquestions.org/woman-president.html

Josh,

Should it be that God moves the people to place into a leadership role a woman, then who are we to question God’s choice? Yet, in the same breath there were Godly woman in that same capacity that God used, and yes this is part of the Gospel, whether we choose to accept it or not.

Generally speaking, God designed men for positions of leadership. But apart from leadership in the church and family, which is given to men alone, the Bible doesn’t expressly forbid women from positions of government. As a “gray” issue, the question of women leading in government has been passionately debated. Even those who are most vehemently against a woman president would be hard pressed to justify voting for an ungodly man who has a favorable position toward abortion, for example, over a godly Christian woman with a strong pro-life stance.”

I believe that she made her point, don’t you?

But we are not talking about civil government, but more of the church and the ministry that the church represents. When we expressly commit to claim that God wants just men in the ministry, then we just put God in a box and are telling God who he can and cannot use……I would rather accept a woman in the ministry and glean something from the message than to deny God the ‘Creator’s Right’ to speak thru whom He has chosen……or would you prefer a donkey?

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 2:09 PM

 

Room4more:

 

I believe that she made her point, don’t you?

But we are not talking about civil government, but more of the church and the ministry that the church represents. When we expressly commit to claim that God wants just men in the ministry, then we just put God in a box and are telling God who he can and cannot use……I would rather accept a woman in the ministry and glean something from the message than to deny God the ‘Creator’s Right’ to speak thru whom He has chosen……or would you prefer a donkey?

Apparently you strongly disagree with Voddie and the author of that article. That's fine with me. 

I will make one small note though. You brought up God's "Creator's Right". Does this not also include His right to establish (and chose) specific roles for both men and women in the church and family? The question isn't whether a woman has the capacity to play a role well or even if God could use her in such a role. The question is whether that role was designed to be held by her. I know of a single mother who has to play the role of both mother and father. She does a wonderful job and God clearly is blessing her.  However, the role of father was clearly designed for a man.

 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 4:30 PM

Josh:

 Apparently you strongly disagree with Voddie and the author of that article. That's fine with me. 

I will make one small note though. You brought up God's "Creator's Right". Does this not also include His right to establish (and chose) specific roles for both men and women in the church and family? The question isn't whether a woman has the capacity to play a role well or even if God could use her in such a role. The question is whether that role was designed to be held by her. I know of a single mother who has to play the role of both mother and father. She does a wonderful job and God clearly is blessing her.  However, the role of father was clearly designed for a man.

Boy you sure do read into the text what you want, I will say that:

First, point out to me where I stated or indicated that I did not agree with the article you posted? If you cannot, which you cannot, then your statement is not valid and nor does it merit any in-depth comment;

Second, God’s right to do as He sees fit does neither need our approval nor our counsel, if you understood those passages then you would understand that there’s no room for discussion, is there?......

By the way – why do our churches allow our MOTHERS and WOMEN to teach our young and act in that capacity, but WE[MEN] say they[WOMEN] cannot teach Adult classes? Nor can they be a minister? – we live in our churches by a “double standard”, we allow them[WOMEN] the right to do as we[MEN] say and not as we do......How soon we forget that Paul gave Praise to a "deaconess".

So, even tho we may not deem that the role[not sure which role you are speaking of here] may not have been designed for her, should God desire/Decree that she is to fill that role[again not sure to which you are addressing], even if temporarily, then God’s Will will prevail – or are you going to stop it, and if so, with what army?

Yes, the role of the Father is designed for a man, but again we are not talking about a father’s role, are we? As with our other conversation, you seem to find it difficult to stay on subject......

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1038
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 5:05 PM
And this discussion concerns how to use Logos software because?
Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 5:25 PM

Mike Pettit:
And this discussion concerns how to use Logos software because?

Thanks Mike, oh and by the way:

your two comments here had what to do with using Logos Bible software? 

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/47704/356027.aspx#356027

Please do share.......

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 356
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 5:53 PM

Stephen Thorp:

Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermenutics of Cultural Analysis by William J. Webb. IVP 2001

I'd like to see this book made available through Logos

YesGood Read even if you don't agree... I have the kindle version, and of course no page numbers, so Logos, don't put this into a Vyrso book!!! You can read Webb here Four views on moving beyond the Bible to theology. 2009 (S. N. Gundry & G. T. Meadors, Ed.). Zondervan Counterpoints Collection. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. http://www.logos.com/product/16627/four-views-on-moving-beyond-the-bible-to-theology

 

 

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 12:16 AM

I have to agree with Mike that this thread appears to have moved beyond the bounds of the guidance issued by Logos in respect of activity on the forums. This guidance discourages users from engaging in theological debate. (I appreciate that those active on this thread will be aware of these guidelines, but, for the benefit of new users, the guidance is available here.) 

The reason I am posting, however, is I wonder whether this kind of debate (which Logos discourages here) is better suited to Faithlife.com? I wonder whether there is value, should you wish to continue the debate, in setting up a specific group in Faithlife. As an added benefit, this will make reference to Logos resources easier and, no doubt, assist Logos in beta testing their new site.

I am not aware that the forum guidelines extend to closed Faithlife groups (which appear to be designed, in part, to facilitate theological discussion). 

To return to the OP, I agree that the suggested book is significant (whether one agrees with the author's conclusions or not). It would be helpful, therefore, to have this in Logos format.

Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 12:16 AM

Room4more:

Boy you sure do read into the text what you want, I will say that:

First, point out to me where I stated or indicated that I did not agree with the article you posted? If you cannot, which you cannot, then your statement is not valid and nor does it merit any in-depth comment;

I certainly apologize if I mis-categorized your position. Both the article and Voddie Baucham hold to a complementarian view. They do not believe that women should be in a leadership role over their husbands nor in a leadership role over men in the church.  Do you subscribe to this idea, too? If not, then I did not label you wrongly.

 

Second, God’s right to do as He sees fit does neither need our approval nor our counsel, if you understood those passages then you would understand that there’s no room for discussion, is there?......

Are you saying that the complementarian view is wrong? I'm fine with you assuming that. I'm not trying to debate you. I just posted links to information I thought were interesting and relevant concerning the topic. However, you have taken it upon yourself to get all worked up over this issue. You should probably tone it down.

Yes, the role of the Father is designed for a man, but again we are not talking about a father’s role, are we? As with our other conversation, you seem to find it difficult to stay on subject......

Well, at least you agree that men and women have different roles prescribed by God. Smile Have a nice day Room.

 

Posts 36364
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 2:19 AM

Room4more:
your two comments here

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 5:01 AM

Okay that’s fine, y’all.

But lets be mindful that from here on out, every comment y’all make needs to be as you direct:

In direct usage to using Logos Bible software – no deviations.

I’ll agree to it, can you? So that means no jokes, no puns, no book discussion, just straight to the point of using and instructions on how to use ‘Logos Bible Software’.

 

This will be interesting………..[I'll bet most of ya can't make it through the day, better still lunch]

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 383
Stephen Thorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 12:59 PM

Hi, Just for the record, I would like to say that I found this book very helpful in doing what it was supposed to do, i.e. give the reader some ideas about how to interpret scripture in the light of difficult issues. In the process I found that my understanding of those passages which suggested women shouldn't be in ministry or have authority over men shifted to a much more pro position.

I know some will disagree but that's what this book did for me and why it should in my view be part of the Logos family.

Page 1 of 3 (41 items) 1 2 3 Next > | RSS