Re: Slaves, Women and Homosexuals (Suggestion)

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Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 1:36 PM

Hi Stephen,

I fully understand where you are coming from and understand that the personal significance of the book to you is a great incentive for wanting this title in Logos format. The difficulty, I guess, is that Logos users constitute a very broad church and that even an apparently innocuous reference to a theological position or conviction can ignite a debate (the temptation to engage in and further such debates is often overwhelming). Some of these debates have proved thoroughly unpleasant. It is my recollection that, following one such debate, Logos issued the guidelines (which are referenced above).

I say this not to suggest that your intentions are to ignite such a debate. To me, it is clear that you are passionate about this resource (and I expect every Logos user has similar cherished and significant resources). I absolutely understand where you are coming from and apologise if my comment (above) appeared to be directed or critical of your original post.

I do wonder, however, (and, again, I mention this above) whether such debates could be moved to Faithlife.com. Certainly Room4More is familiar with Faithlife and is, I expect, in a position to set up an appropriate group. I appreciate that there may be little appetite for such a group, but I am encouraged that, indirectly at least, Logos appear to have provided an alternative.

Perhaps, henceforth, we can curtail such debates here with a Christian version of the bar room invitation to, 'step outside' (by which, I mean, let's move the conversation to Faithlife). Stick out tongue

I may or may not share your convictions on this issue, but I do agree that this book would be a valuable addition to the Logos oeuvre as it is often cited and influential.

God bless,

Andy

Posts 19692
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 1:50 PM

I seem to recall not long ago we had a discussion on how people should respond on the Suggestions forum if a book they were opposed to was requested. The general consensus was that only positive agreements or further information about the book were welcome. Dissing the book or the theological position it comes from is not appropriate. Logos casts a wide net in what they're looking for in terms of suggestions from customers. It does nobody a service to say "no this book would not be good to have in Logos." If you don't like it, just don't buy it. Let others have it if they want it, and let Logos make the decision whether to produce it or not.

Posts 356
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 1:50 PM

Stephen Thorp:

I know some will disagree but that's what this book did for me and why it should in my view be part of the Logos family.

Stephen, you did good, I agree that the resource does just what you say it does, and I don't agree totally with Webb, but thought it was a must read by those who think the subject matter is important. So with out all the other distractions/comments, I also suggest it be added as a Logos offering. YesYes

 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 1:58 PM

Interesting - By the Logos post timer it is now: 2:00pm.

So the question to answer personally is:

Did ya make it?

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Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 2:05 PM

Rosie Perera:

I seem to recall not long ago we had a discussion on how people should respond on the Suggestions forum if a book they were opposed to was requested. The general consensus was that only positive agreements or further information about the book were welcome. Dissing the book or the theological position it comes from is not appropriate. Logos casts a wide net in what they're looking for in terms of suggestions from customers. It does nobody a service to say "no this book would not be good to have in Logos." If you don't like it, just don't buy it. Let others have it if they want it, and let Logos make the decision whether to produce it or not.

I totally agree with you, Rosie. However, there is a contrary issue whereby individuals passionately supportive of a particular work or theological position overstep the bounds in support of that particular resource. There have been other occasions where individuals supportive of the position advocated by the resource will use the post as an opportunity to discuss or even promote that particular view (often without reference to the resource).

In my opinion, such activity can provoke unhelpful and unhealthy debate. Indeed, I recall a series of 'satirical' posts from an unnamed individual requesting resources in the most provocative and divisive terms.

I am not suggesting that we should all become dispassionate automatons, but rather that we should endeavour to exercise care and grace even when championing our favourite resources. 

In the advent of Faithlife, I see little reason why any of us should use this forum to engage in theological debate. Instead, we should take it outside... To Faithlife.Big Smile

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 2:06 PM

Room4more:

Interesting - By the Logos post timer it is now: 2:00pm.

So the question to answer personally is:

Did ya make it?

My timer actually reads, '9.58PM'... My question is, 'Did I make it?' and, 'Do I get a prize?'

I will happily send you my wish list should it help Stick out tongue.

Posts 19692
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 2:22 PM

Andy Evans:
I totally agree with you, Rosie. However, there is a contrary issue whereby individuals passionately supportive of a particular work or theological position overstep the bounds in support of that particular resource. There have been other occasions where individuals supportive of the position advocated by the resource will use the post as an opportunity to discuss or even promote that particular view (often without reference to the resource).

There would have been no need for passionate support of this theological position if nobody had questioned his initial recommendation of the resource, which fell well within the bounds of the forum guidelines.

Hence I still stand up for the position that we should allow people to suggest whatever they want without poking back at them, because that will only cause them to get defensive.

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 2:40 PM

Rosie Perera:

There would have been no need for passionate support of this theological position if nobody had questioned his initial recommendation of the resource, which fell well within the bounds of the forum guidelines.

Hence I still stand up for the position that we should allow people to suggest whatever they want without poking back at them, because that will only cause them to get defensive.

Apologies, Rosie, I fear I have been unclear.

In short: I agree with you.

For clarity, I have no problem with the OP. I have no problem with the recommendation of the resource (indeed, I too would like to have this resource available in Logos).

I had noted, in my initial reading of this thread, that the opposing view was preceded by (and, as I understood it), in response to, an albeit brief post which promoted the theological position advocated in the resource, but dislocated from the said resource. I apologise if I have been ungenerous in my interpretation of events. I accept your correction.

Just to add further clarification, however, my observation (regarding an over zealous promotion of a theological position represented by a particular resource) was intended generally, but with particular reference to a sometime agitator of this parish. Again, I apologise that I was unclear.

Andy

Posts 19692
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 3:06 PM

Andy Evans:

For clarity, I have no problem with the OP. I have no problem with the recommendation of the resource (indeed, I too would like to have this resource available in Logos).

I had noted, in my initial reading of this thread, that the opposing view was preceded by (and, as I understood it), in response to, an albeit brief post which promoted the theological position advocated in the resource, but dislocated from the said resource. I apologise if I have been ungenerous in my interpretation of events. I accept your correction.

No apology needed. It's me who needs to apologize for being unclear. I wasn't trying to correct you. And I didn't mean you had a problem with the OP. It's just that someone used this thread as a platform to post an opposing view, by way of an "interesting" video, which got people riled up. That was the first mistake made on this thread. At that point, people should have left that tangent alone. But it snowballed.

All I meant was that it wasn't the passionate defenses of the OP's theological position which were the first to stray. But I agree with you that those have no place on these forums either. Once someone ventures into theological controversy, everyone else should use better judgment and ignore it. Including me, so I'm going to return to silence....  (Keeping in mind the old saying, I think it originally came from the desert fathers but on the Internet appears to be atrtibuted to a Spanish Proverb: "Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence.")

Posts 383
Stephen Thorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 3:45 PM

Andy & Rosie. Thank you for your comments and naturally I agree wholeheartedly with both of you. By citing how this book had helped me as an individual, I never had any thought of promoting any one particular theological stance or position - and am quite baffled as to how this thread has developed the way it has. I simply hoped to encourage Logos to include the resource as a useful tool and  'a good read'.

Now, if I really wanted to watch the fireworks fly there are a whole host of other resources I could recommend  ...... but ...... Wink

Posts 383
Stephen Thorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 3:47 PM

Ralph Mauch:
Stephen, you did good,

 

Thanks Ralph Smile

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 3:48 PM

Ha!

I knew it could not be done!!

It has already be proven that there can be civil discussion, it's the ones that get bored and add their negative impact that ruin good conversation, stirring up controversial ignorance that leads to dissention, makes me consider how the flow of conversation went with Paul and the "intelegent theologians' of his day with the "Men of Athens".

I would like to see it indoctrinated into the resources, besides having the hardcopy. It was a great suggestion....it would be interesting to see how the tagging and metadata would flow.....

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 4:57 PM

Ralph Mauch:

Stephen Thorp:

Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermenutics of Cultural Analysis by William J. Webb. IVP 2001

I'd like to see this book made available through Logos

YesGood Read even if you don't agree... I have the kindle version, and of course no page numbers, so Logos, don't put this into a Vyrso book!!! You can read Webb here Four views on moving beyond the Bible to theology. 2009 (S. N. Gundry & G. T. Meadors, Ed.). Zondervan Counterpoints Collection. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. http://www.logos.com/product/16627/four-views-on-moving-beyond-the-bible-to-theology

Ralph,

thanks a lot for your helpful pointer to the counterpoints resource - I would have overlooked that. Webb explains his methodology and some of his findings there and this helps a lot in sharpening expectations about what to expect in the "Slaves" resource. Also the responses to Webb in the counterpoints format may help. Kevin Vanhoozer starts his critical response to Webb with praise for the "Slaves" book: logosres:4vbeyondbbl;ref=Page.p_262

WILLIAM WEBB’S SLAVES, WOMEN & HOMOSEXUALS is one of the most significant evangelical attempts in recent years to wrestle with the “thither” end of hermeneutics, namely, the vexed question of how to move from the sacred page and its original context to social practice in contemporary context. An especially welcome feature of the book is its careful presentation and defense of the criteria Webb uses to decide what in Scripture is limited in its application to its original cultural context and what has ongoing applicational significance. His is the most important voice at present representing the trajectory view, and our book would be seriously lacking without it.58

In the accompanying footnote #58 he claims: Other representatives of this view include F. F. Bruce, Richard Longenecker, I. Howard Marshall, and, most recently, Kenton Sparks.

This alone should make clear that Webb's book would be a helpful addition to the Logos library of users interested in Hermeneutics and biblically-based Christian Ethics, whether they share the results of of his work or not (I understand that maybe an intrinsic problem of moving along trajectories beyond the time-bound specific examples of scripture would be to find the position for "today" and I'd hope that Webb elaborates in his criteria on this question).

One question: you say you have the kindle version - I'm a bit at a loss to locate that on Amazon, they claim to have only paperback editions.

Thanks, Mick 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 5:15 PM

Thank you Newbie, I was wondering when this would come out…..It seems to have gotten overlooked by some…..there are other referrals besides this....

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Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 7:23 PM

Room4more:

It has already be proven that there can be civil discussion, it's the ones that get bored and add their negative impact that ruin good conversation, stirring up controversial ignorance that leads to dissention, makes me consider how the flow of conversation went with Paul and the "intelegent theologians' of his day with the "Men of Athens".

Hi Room,

I wanted to reply to the comment you left on my user page concerning this thread. You wrote:

"Personally, I do not think that you have any idea what you are addressing, other than you show that you know how to google something. Now, if you would like to have a Scriptural discussion, I am all for it....."

Somehow I think you're trying to "stir up my controversial ignorance". Stick out tongue

You are correct, however. I'm not very original when it comes to where I get the vast amount of my information - who is? In fact, the whole point I use Logos is to use and learn from resources written by people other than myself. I, also, use Google on a daily basis to gather information. Believe it or not, there is plenty of good sources to be discovered. Such as this article written by Wayne Grudem on William Webb. I'm not sure if I can do a better job than Grudem debating this issue, so I unashamedly decline your request to a debate.

 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 7:32 PM

Oh that’s okay Josh. Don’t fret any over it. Some think that our interaction leads to --------

Little do they know, right.

*****************

Hey, I google too,

But it would have been more of a discussion, such as what was happening here....not a debate, but that's okay too. I don't agree with Baucham, but then thats me....maybe we should buy him a hardcopy and send it to him.....okay got some desktime awaiting.......all we can do is try, just try not to duplicate unless quoting Scripture.....have a good evening...Thanks again.

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Posts 356
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 7:52 PM

NB.Mick:
One question: you say you have the kindle version

here you go Mick http://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Women-Homosexuals-Hermeneutics-ebook/dp/B0022NGVSI/ref=kinw_dp_ke?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2

but we want the Logos version with page numbers!

 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2012 7:59 PM

In all, I am just ecstatic that people are beginning to learn and read about letting God out of the box He has been put in….

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 18 2012 12:15 AM

Ralph Mauch:

NB.Mick:
One question: you say you have the kindle version

here you go Mick http://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Women-Homosexuals-Hermeneutics-ebook/dp/B0022NGVSI/ref=kinw_dp_ke?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2

but we want the Logos version with page numbers!

Thanks Ralph - this really is a strange beast. I can't get Amazon Search to find this in the Kindle Shop either in US or in DE (and the bad thing is, if I wanted to use your deep link: Germans are not allowed to buy in the US Kindle store, but need to go through the German Amazon site, forego all Kindle freebie/promo items, pay different prices etc.)  

Nevertheless, we'd like this to be in Logos anyway...

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Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 18 2012 7:18 AM

NB.Mick ... that's a useful little tidbit. Amazon finally reduced all their rules for some of the Japanese publishers, so we're likely to get a Kindle etc later this year.

So I guess we'll have buy through the JP site.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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