Morph searching in Syriac - can anyone help?

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Dean J | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Apr 19 2012 5:09 PM

I can't figure out how to morph search in Syriac - for Greek or Hebrew I just put g: + the word, or h: + word, and Logos will begin to spell out the options. I've tried using Sedra and the Leiden morphology, and have tried s: , syriac: and anything else I can think of, and I can even find a simple preposition in Syriac like men. 

Does anyone know how to work this?

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 19 2012 6:54 PM

Dean053:

I can't figure out how to morph search in Syriac - for Greek or Hebrew I just put g: + the word, or h: + word, and Logos will begin to spell out the options. I've tried using Sedra and the Leiden morphology, and have tried s: , syriac: and anything else I can think of, and I can even find a simple preposition in Syriac like men. 

Does anyone know how to work this?

I think that it is limited to SEDRA, but i could be wrong.

The wiki has nothing but a brief mention.....maybe another will know for sure

http://wiki.logos.com/Morphological_Search

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 19 2012 7:19 PM

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

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Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 19 2012 7:38 PM

Looks like you've got it working. How did you type the lemma in? Did you have to copy and paste, or were you able to get Logos to generate it like it does with the Greek and Hebrew? I've reproduced your morph box but I still can't get it to do anything.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 19 2012 7:59 PM

Dean053:

Looks like you've got it working. How did you type the lemma in? Did you have to copy and paste, or were you able to get Logos to generate it like it does with the Greek and Hebrew? I've reproduced your morph box but I still can't get it to do anything.

I started with:

1)@NCSA [noun,common,singular,absolute] and got the results [1st tab-upper left]

2)clicked the verse to open the default bible Mat 5.13;

3)clicked the Peshitta to open it to same verse – which came up highlighted;

4)right clicked the highlighted and chose BWS

5)deleted the first search tab and from the highlighted right-clicked and did the exact morph for the correct morph search.(logos generated the syriac) 

I do not know anything about the Syriac, just thought backwards…..I always have to do it this way for the Peshitta, to me it's quicker than running from clause to clause......you will note that the morphing is different if you do all the displays for the ESV and the Peshitta, to which I am not familiar with that one well enough to generate more exactly.

Hope this helps.

[[the syriac has never came up in the forums before that I know of, so maybe someone more familiar will jump in and give a shorter method that is better]]]

[[[edit: I have this in my Library

MELTHO: Syriac OpenType Fonts for Windows XP/2000™ and Windows 95/98/ME™

maybe Morris or Bob will write a blog and teach us something.......eh!!]]]

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 19 2012 11:08 PM

There are at least 2 Syriac morphologies in L4: Sedra 3 and Leiden. The Peshitta is tagged in Sedra 3; Old Syriac Gospels tagged In Leiden.

If you are beginning with the Peshitta, you can select a word with the appropriate lemma, right click and select the second morphology search option. From the search pane it is now easy to reset the morphology attributes to do whatever search you need.

Alternatively, the right way. I don't know the transliteration system but it does work - see below. Part 10 of the wiki http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP  should get you the rest of the way.

Sorry I can't be of more help but the people I know actually know Syriac have not posted recently. If your still can't get it to work, I could contact one of them.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 5:11 AM

Room4more:

Dean053:

Looks like you've got it working. How did you type the lemma in? Did you have to copy and paste, or were you able to get Logos to generate it like it does with the Greek and Hebrew? I've reproduced your morph box but I still can't get it to do anything.

 

I started with:

1)@NCSA [noun,common,singular,absolute] and got the results [1st tab-upper left]

2)clicked the verse to open the default bible Mat 5.13;

3)clicked the Peshitta to open it to same verse – which came up highlighted;

4)right clicked the highlighted and chose BWS

5)deleted the first search tab and from the highlighted right-clicked and did the exact morph for the correct morph search.(logos generated the syriac) 

I do not know anything about the Syriac, just thought backwards…..I always have to do it this way for the Peshitta, to me it's quicker than running from clause to clause......you will note that the morphing is different if you do all the displays for the ESV and the Peshitta, to which I am not familiar with that one well enough to generate more exactly.

Hope this helps.

[[the syriac has never came up in the forums before that I know of, so maybe someone more familiar will jump in and give a shorter method that is better]]]

[[[edit: I have this in my Library

MELTHO: Syriac OpenType Fonts for Windows XP/2000™ and Windows 95/98/ME™

maybe Morris or Bob will write a blog and teach us something.......eh!!]]]

 

 

Thanks, yes that helps--that is one way to try to work around it. 

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 5:15 AM

 

MJ. Smith:

There are at least 2 Syriac morphologies in L4: Sedra 3 and Leiden. The Peshitta is tagged in Sedra 3; Old Syriac Gospels tagged In Leiden.

If you are beginning with the Peshitta, you can select a word with the appropriate lemma, right click and select the second morphology search option. From the search pane it is now easy to reset the morphology attributes to do whatever search you need.

 

Alternatively, the right way. I don't know the transliteration system but it does work - see below. Part 10 of the wiki http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP  should get you the rest of the way.

Sorry I can't be of more help but the people I know actually know Syriac have not posted recently. If your still can't get it to work, I could contact one of them.

Pulling up the morph search the way you suggested will be helpful. I went to the link before creating this thread, but the instructions for the Syriac don't seem to work--for example, if you take your second screenshot, some of those words are Greek, and clicking on any of them will produce 0 results. Hopefully one of the Syriac people will spot this thread, but in the meantime thanks to the both of you for giving me some ideas to try to work around the problem. 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 6:49 AM

Altho they mention ‘Syriac’ in the opening stanza here http://wiki.logos.com/Morphological_Search , I have as yet to find anything that leads to better understanding of the actual process for the Syriac in regards to the usage of Logos Bible Software. It can be determined[educationally based guess] that it functions the same as the Hebrew and the Greek morph searches.

I have not come across a decent code list for the Hebrew, but they do have one for the Greek[see below]. Which, inevitably, leads me to ask the simplest of questions:

Where did you get the idea that having an “S” constitutes defining the Syriac in the morph search? I have been using this software for years, and after having searched, for the most part all of the Logos site, have never seen, read, or watched any video that hints to the usage of “S”. I am not saying you are wrong, but it does appear that it’s usage means nothing by what you are posting.

 

****************

Greek Morphological Codes used in Search

  This is copied from Mark Barnes reply to a post and placed here so we have them documented in the wiki.

The reason for the codes is that different resources in Logos have different morphologies. They’re not documented, but there’s only five of them to my knowledge:

·       lbs: Logos Greek Morphology

·       lls: Gramcord Greek Morphology

·       fe: Friberg Greek Morphology

·       mr: Robinson Greek Morphology

·       js: Swanson Greek Morphology

Example of using these codes in a search

Copy and paste the line below and paste it into a Basic Search

<lemma = lbs/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = lls/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = fe/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = mr/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = js/el/δικαιόω>

Remember that if you want to specify morphology for each lemma, then the different morphologies have different codes.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 10:56 AM

MJ. Smith:
If you are beginning with the Peshitta, you can select a word with the appropriate lemma, right click

Concur right click in The Peshitta can used to select lemma, then do Bible Word Study, Morph Search, ...

MJ. Smith:
I don't know the transliteration system

Appears Logos transliteration does not support S: or s: for entry.  From a Bible Word Study, tried to use transliteration to enter a Syriac word, but finds 0 results (was expecting 76 results to match results from a right click morph search for lemma):

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 11:01 AM

I have a potential workaround for when you know the word but you don't know where the particular word is used. Go to:

http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/index.php

enter lemma, e.g. )mr (olef, mim, rish). Click on word in the left hand column, then on Peshitta NT in the top right hand of the page to find uses of it in the NT. 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 11:16 AM

Dean053:

I have a potential workaround for when you know the word but you don't know where the particular word is used. Go to:

http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/index.php

enter lemma, e.g. )mr (olef, mim, rish). Click on word in the left hand column, then on Peshitta NT in the top right hand of the page to find uses of it in the NT. 

Have a look at this:

http://www.logos.com/support/downloads/keyboards

and [just a very brief note about syriac-underlined.bold, but you would think that the same would apply]:

Searching in Greek and Hebrew

If you just want to restrict your search to a particular language, you can use a language field. For example german:die, or latin:deo.

If you need to type characters in a different alphabet (e.g. Greek, Hebrew, or another language), you can do one of the following:

  • Use transliteration: This enables you to use English characters to type Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words. It is a quick and easy way to search. To use this type g: for Greek, h: for Hebrew, or a: for Aramaic and then the transliterated version of your word. For example, if you wanted to search for ἀγάπη you would type g:agape. If you wanted to search for חסד you would type h:hesed. You’ll be able to choose precisely the word you want from a dropdown menu.
  • Use another Windows keyboard: You can install multiple keyboards in Windows, and switch between them with a single keypress (usually LeftAlt+Shift). This allows you to type directly in Greek/Hebrew, though you’ll need to learn which characters on your keyboard produce which Greek/Hebrew characters. The keyboards Logos supplied for use with Logos 3, still work with Logos 4. This method supports Coptic and Syriac as well as Greek and Hebrew.
  • Use a ‘soft-keyboard’: A soft-keyboard is a computer program that looks like a keyboard. You choose your language, then click characters with your mouse, or type them using the on-screen keyboard as a guide. Logos has its own soft-keyboard called Shibboleth (it’s free), though there are also several other soft-keyboards that could be useful for Biblical studies. Biblical Greek lists most of them.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 1:14 PM

Room4more:
Where did you get the idea that having an “S” constitutes defining the Syriac in the morph search?

I don't recall so I'll put it into the class of "common knowledge". Since the wiki is user-created, it is neither complete nor definitive. I've even tried f: for finnish with reasonable results for a Bible without any word level tagging.Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 1:18 PM

Ignore the second half of my original post in this thread. It should read: <deleted by author as incorrect>. You might also want to check out Czech.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 1:36 PM

Room4more:
Logos has its own soft-keyboard called Shibboleth (it’s free)

Logos offers Shibboleth for free => http://www.logos.com/downloads

For Philippians 4:4, noticing can enter Hdy or jdy in shibboleth for copy (using RTF) for paste into Morph Search, yet final forms appear different (suspect both need improvement):

Personally living and leaning, now understand threads => Syriac Final Forms and => Leiden Peshitta Problem about final form display issue in Logos 4.

Wiki Mac and PC User Interface Differences => Feature Parity includes:

  • PC Syriac ligature connected correctly, but Mac displays Syriac text as independent letters. Mac final forms are disconnected Logos User Voice suggestion => Connect Syriac Ligature on Mac
    • Logos: Text display is a function of the operating system, not Logos. Some ancient scripts have errors on certain platforms. We plan to implement our own low-level text shaping / rendering in a future release of Logos Bible Software, to ensure consistency across all platforms, but until then will be unable to address text shaping bugs at the OS level.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 1:54 PM

KS4J,

On my other (winXP) I had the g/h keyboard installed but not the syriac, haven’t installed them yet on this one (win7) so I cannot say how they function. It seems that the Peshitta is going to get a workout and that there may be some downloading the keyboard setup.

I think that I will wait for Bob or Morris and a blog…..my way works for me now, a little tedious but functional. As for the other threads I read them but they dealt with other things than what we are currently addressing….I read that Bob answered a few threads, maybe he read this and has assigned a developer to have a look see and maybe offer some advice soon....who know's 'only the shadow do!'......

[we are close to page #2...........Zip it!. ]

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2012 8:05 PM

Dean053:
I've tried using Sedra and the Leiden morphology, and have tried s: , syriac:

Posted => Suggestion: Syriac transliteration word entry using s:

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 22 2012 6:30 AM

Dean053:
Pulling up the morph search the way you suggested will be helpful. I went to the link before creating this thread, but the instructions for the Syriac don't seem to work--for example, if you take your second screenshot, some of those words are Greek, and clicking on any of them will produce 0 results. Hopefully one of the Syriac people will spot this thread, but in the meantime thanks to the both of you for giving me some ideas to try to work around the problem. 

I'm listening and responding now MJ :)

I have a great many frustrations with the "poor cousin" way that Syriac is treated within Logos. Some of these frustrations have been reported, many have not. This thread is touching upon some of those that I have not yet complained about. My reason for not yet reporting these is that I believe it is much more important that Logos is able to properly display the Syriac scripts before bothering with making these other tools (work). I won't go any further into the issue of proper display of Syriac text since it has been discussed to death and we are just waiting for the development team to fix the problem.

I have stopped using Logos for work in Syriac (and created my own tools) because of the problems encountered, and most particularly with the display problem, but from what I remember I will try and answer the OP's question. I hope Bradley or Vincent will correct me if I am wrong...

1) As with Hebrew, no Root/Stem searching. Only searching on the Lemma or a full word.

2) No shortcut for Syriac (s:) like there is for Hebrew (h:).

3) Unlike with Hebrew where you can use Hebrew script or transliteration with lemma:, you cannot use transliterated Syriac with lemma:, only the Syriac script. Also, unlike with Hebrew, you will not get a drop down of options when you use the Syriac script. You must know your lemma and type it in completely.

The best work around is to use S: with the Syriac script (if you know it) to get your drop down and select your lemma. Then edit the line and change S to lemma. But this requires switching back and forth between the English and Syriac keyboards. Otherwise you can use the right-click menu over an existing text as others have suggested.

These comments are true for both the originally released Peshitta (NT), which uses Sedra 3 morphology, and the L-Peshitta (Leiden), which uses the Leiden Peshitta morphology. The Old Syriac Gospels are not morphologically tagged. Neither is Brock's "The Bible in the Syriac Tradition" nor "The Peshitta of Daniel" by Richard Taylor.

Well, enough for now... Time for Divine Liturgy.

 

---

James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

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Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 23 2012 5:20 AM

Looks like I'm going to have to learn how to use the Syriac keyboard in order to get some decent functionality out of the morph search. 

 

I concur about the script. I've learned the three scripts for Syriac, but having the letters confused makes it difficult to read sometimes. 

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2012 3:58 AM

James W Bennett:
I have a great many frustrations with the "poor cousin" way that Syriac is treated within Logos. Some of these frustrations have been reported, many have not. This thread is touching upon some of those that I have not yet complained about. My reason for not yet reporting these is that I believe it is much more important that Logos is able to properly display the Syriac scripts before bothering with making these other tools (work). I won't go any further into the issue of proper display of Syriac text since it has been discussed to death and we are just waiting for the development team to fix the problem.

L5 displays Syriac correctly so it is now time to check out some of the other area to see how Syriac has fared.

Shortcuts...

  • a: - aramaic
  • g: - greek
  • h: - hebrew

No shortcut for Syriac transliteration so you have to keep switching between Syriac and the other Keyboard of choice. Although L5 has a drop down and seems to fill in "lemma:" for you. Can't remember whether this happened under L4.

Root/Stem searching has been marked in UserVoice as a feature that us started and not just planned. I hope that this will work with Syriac/Coptic/Latin and not just Greek/Hebrew.

I found the proper display of Syriac enough reason to upgrade, my dusty from non-use, L4 to L5. Hopefully this will help others with Syriac questions about L5.

 

---

James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

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