Questionable "Bible Study Magazine" Ad

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 12:10 PM

Frank Sauer:

John D. Barry:

I greatly appreciate the debate about this topic, but this isn't the best place for it, since that's not the intent of the Logos forums. Please feel free to email me directly at john@biblestudymagazine.com.

A quick reminder about our forum guidelines for these types of discussions: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

 

Not the intent of Logos forums leaves me a bit puzzled. Is that in regard to item 2 and not getting into controversial topics? I ask because clearly it fits the intent of item 1 discussion of Logos products. IMHO this is exactly the place for this discussion as it allows those who may subscribe information on something they may not choose to purchase.

I think ‘4.2’ is better applied…

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Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 12:14 PM

John D. Barry:
I greatly appreciate the debate about this topic, but this isn't the best place for it, since that's not the intent of the Logos forums.

Hi John,

Ok, now I'm confused. Bible Study Magazine is a Logos Published Product correct? If that is the case, then isn't the Logos forums the place for this debate? The ad does not bother me in any way. But the comment from you for a Logos published product in a Logos forum saying it "isn't the best place for it" bothers me.

In Christ,
Matt Hamrick

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 12:21 PM

I think we're leaning towards socialistic censorship, they should be allowed some lee-way after all it is a paid to the provider advertisment, falling under promotional funded revenue--? [great, now I have guilt...]

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Posts 885
Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 12:29 PM

Frank Sauer:
IMHO this is exactly the place for this discussion as it allows those who may subscribe information on something they may not choose to purchase.

I agree Frank.  It IS a Logos product.  It's very name characterizes it as a Bible Study tool published by Logos.  And, there is obvious concern over this specific advertisement as well as the policy that opens the door to any slick "Bible" product with the scratch to pay regardless of doctrinal/heretical stance.

 

"I read dead people..."

Posts 2393
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 12:34 PM

Josh:
  The advertisement (and especially its product) explicitly state that my modern translations (NASB, NET, NIV, even NKJV) are unreliable 

Why? See the footnotes from the NET on Mark 9:29 He told them, “This kind can come out only by prayer.”38  1
38 38 tc Most witnesses, even early and excellent ones (P45vid
א2 A C D L W Θ Ψ f1, 13 33 M lat co), have “and fasting” (καὶ νηστείᾳ, kai nēsteia) after “prayer” here. But this seems to be a motivated reading, due to the early church’s emphasis on fasting (TCGNT 85; cf., e.g., 2 Clem. 16:4; Pol. Phil 7:2; Did. 1:3; 7:4). That the most important witnesses (א* B), as well as a few others (0274 2427 k), lack καὶ νηστείᾳ, when a good reason for the omission is difficult to find, argues strongly for the shorter reading.
[1] Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible, Mk 9:29 (Biblical Studies Press, 2006; 2006).      Also see the footnotes on Mat 17:21 

So the early church changed Scripture to match what they were doing!
Or did the early church fast because Jesus told them to?
Why the KJV Only Group (and the ad in question)?
Because there are some that see Textual Criticism just as some see Evolution – Junk Science.
If Textual Criticism is wrong then that ad is correct. If Textual Criticism is correct than that ad is wrong.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 12:54 PM

David Ames:

So the early church changed Scripture to match what they were doing!
Or did the early church fast because Jesus told them to?
Why the KJV Only Group (and the ad in question)?
Because there are some that see Textual Criticism just as some see Evolution – Junk Science.
If Textual Criticism is wrong then that ad is correct. If Textual Criticism is correct than that ad is wrong.

Great!! Now I have even more guilt...

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Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 1:07 PM

Way against the rules, but I can't resist, I apologize in advance for my indulgence...

David Ames:
Because there are some that see Textual Criticism just as some see Evolution – Junk Science.

I guess it doesn't matter to them that the KJV was translated from a critically derived textBig Smile

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 2:07 PM

David Ames:

Josh:
  The advertisement (and especially its product) explicitly state that my modern translations (NASB, NET, NIV, even NKJV) are unreliable 

Why? See the footnotes from the NET on Mark 9:29 He told them, “This kind can come out only by prayer.”38  1
38 38 tc Most witnesses, even early and excellent ones (P45vid
א2 A C D L W Θ Ψ f1, 13 33 M lat co), have “and fasting” (καὶ νηστείᾳ, kai nēsteia) after “prayer” here. But this seems to be a motivated reading, due to the early church’s emphasis on fasting (TCGNT 85; cf., e.g., 2 Clem. 16:4; Pol. Phil 7:2; Did. 1:3; 7:4). That the most important witnesses (א* B), as well as a few others (0274 2427 k), lack καὶ νηστείᾳ, when a good reason for the omission is difficult to find, argues strongly for the shorter reading.
[1] Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible, Mk 9:29 (Biblical Studies Press, 2006; 2006).      Also see the footnotes on Mat 17:21 

So the early church changed Scripture to match what they were doing!
Or did the early church fast because Jesus told them to?
Why the KJV Only Group (and the ad in question)?
Because there are some that see Textual Criticism just as some see Evolution – Junk Science.
If Textual Criticism is wrong then that ad is correct. If Textual Criticism is correct than that ad is wrong.

 

The ad promotes an "edited" Bible that - in of itself - promotes Fred Coulter's (the Bible's editor) beliefs and ministry - Christian Biblical Church of God. This ministry is non-trinitarian - and thus heretical.

Quote from the beliefs page:

The Holy Spirit is not a person or a third member of a so-called trinity. The Holy Spirit is the power by which God the Father and God the Son accomplish Their will.

 

EDIT: Should Logos be running ads that promote resources from a non-trinitarian ministry?

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 2:22 PM

Peace to all!                                  and ..........            Always Triumphant Joy in the Risen Lord!

         Logos, John, Bible Study Magazine!             I treasure this publication.  Wish I could have it online; however, still happy with the print copy that I can share more easily.

                    I will support whatever decision you make in this regard!        I know it is difficult; and I have (and will!) pray for you.  (For Wisdom, for Insight, for Divine Guidance)

             Meanwhile, please let me note that I truly appreciate your printing the Apostles' Creed in Bible Study Magazine.           

That means you do indeed stand for Primary Traditional Christianity.  I'm sure that's a  tad mispoken; however, perhaps you get my drift.

                          Deny the Trinity?             Well, I will support you; however, again, that's a pretty heinous thing to me.

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 2:43 PM

The last thing I want to see happen to Logos is to cow-tow to censorship from forum posters. There are truly more posters in this very thread that hold to what may indeed be "heretical" views of scripture than I have seen in Bible Study Magazine.

To prove my point just imagine what everyone's answers would be if they had to name the most correct Bible version. (Please, imagine it, don't go saying it out loud!)

I find it sad so many shake in their boots to discover there may be others who "got it wrong" and have not yet been burned at the stake. It is no exaggeration 95% of Logos resources are in direct contradiction with all other resources. 

People can be (and are) wrong about many things. If they are truly seeking to know the truth, there is still a chance they will stumble across it, especially with a little help from God. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 3:59 PM

Super Tramp:

yuppers, what ST said. Geeked had to find my spectacles. Thanks.

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Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 4:08 PM

John and fellow Logos users,

I make this post with the hope of bring some clarity to this issue, and improving the trust between Logos and its users.

 

The announced goal of Bible Study Magazine (From Bob Pritchett's  post http://community.logos.com/forums/p/227/3086.asp#3086 )

[Clip] "Bible Study Magazine is not aimed at existing Logos users, though we welcome you all as readers. The goal is to get more people interested in and thinking about Bible study.

We do want to have a balance between "light and fluffy" (and thus easily-approachable) articles and more technical discussions. Didn't you see the introduction to Hebrew text criticism with regards to who killed Goliath? Wasn't that pretty technical? But maybe you don't count that, since David was a "rock (and slingshot) star" too. :-)

My goal for BSM is to be like BAR: approachable and interesting to the person with little understanding of the field, while still useful and interesting to the expert, too.

One thing that's not our goal, and which has caused some confusion with our users, is being a paper tutorial for Bible software. We aren't trying to teach Logos BIble Software in BSM; in fact, we're not really trying to talk to our users much at all. You're here on the forums, subscribed to our NewsWire, and reading our blog. We want to reach the person you go to church with, who is carrying a study Bible and may be fuzzy on what the Septuagint is, who the early church fathers were, and concerned by the phrase "text criticism."

We want Bible Study Magazine to be something that person is willing to pick up (hence the cover feature on someone they've probably heard of), while still a magazine that introduces them to something they hadn't known (Septuagint, Greek word studies, church fathers, etc.). How are we doing at that goal?" [End Clip]

 

Logos' policy on Logos Publications (from Bob Pritchett's post http://community.logos.com/forums/p/35460/266673.aspx#266673 ) 

[Clip] "How can we trust Logos then?

Good question. And here is where, for the first time in 20 years, the answer has changed; there are now two parts:

The historic answer: As an electronic bookseller, Logos Bible Software does not represent any theological filter (and never has). You should not assume that every electronic book we sell represents orthodox Christian belief, or any particular understanding of such. What you can be sure of is that content we sell is labeled with the author, publisher, and other descriptive metadata that will help you identify who is responsible for the content. We trust that our users will exercise discernment in their choice of digital content just as they would when walking through a paper library or bookstore, and we will soon be adding support for user reviews and ratings where you can get and share other perspectives beyond the marketing copy from a book’s dust-jacket.

The new, second part: Recently Logos has become something of a publisher. We create and sell Bible Study Magazine, the Lexham English Bible, HD Commentary, Evangelical Exegetical Commentary, and more. It’s fair to ask what theological perspective is behind these publications. And the answer is “Evangelical Christian.” Logos Bible Software is a member of the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, and we subscribe to the Statement of Faith of the Association (http://www.ecpa.org/?page=about_ecpa)." [End Clip]

 

John, from the foregoing, I conclude that (1) Bible Study Magazine is aimed at people who are not Logos users and (2) Logos acts as the publisher (not a bookseller or librarian) for Bible Study Magazine and thus intends its content to follow the ECPA Statement of Faith. 

I think Logos would be most consistent with both its purpose for BSM and the ECPA SoF by accepting only ads for products that, at a minimum, do not contradict the ECPA State of Faith. 

However, my opinion does't really count. Only yours does, John. Thank you for hearing me out. 

Dennis Parish 

Posts 44
LogosEmployee
John D. Barry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 4:23 PM

Thanks for the further feedback. My comment about forum guidelines was a request that this thread be focused on Logos' products (Bible Study Magazine being one of those) rather than products advertised in Bible Study Magazine.

Regarding questions about our beliefs as an editorial team, they're listed here: http://biblestudymagazine.com/about/

Thanks for helping keep the Logos forums focused on our products. And, again, you can feel free to email me directly with any questions, any time: john@biblestudymagazine.com

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 4:29 PM

John, hey i watched the viral video of HQ, where's u'r office? Bldg #1 or #2?

[[pppsssttt...did I win?...]]

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Posts 44
LogosEmployee
John D. Barry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 4:38 PM

(Dennis, I just saw your response. Thanks for bringing up some clarifying points about our editorial perspective.)

Yes, Bible Study Magazine's content also fits within the parameters of the ECPA Statement of Faith.

And a general note about ads:

Since ads are purchased space in Bible Study Magazine, and thus not our content, they fall under a different criteria than Logos' content. Hence why I said that we don't agree with every ad in Bible Study Magazine. You should always (of course) use discretion when purchasing a resource and when reading it. For this reason, I have very much appreciated this debate, but want to continue to encourage everyone to keep it focused on Logos' content, not content that is advertised in Bible Study Magazine.

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 7:49 PM

John D. Barry:

For this reason, I have very much appreciated this debate, but want to continue to encourage everyone to keep it focused on Logos' content, not content that is advertised in Bible Study Magazine.

This sounds like PR spin. Logos is responsible for ALL the content in its magazine.

That ad was paid for by a heretical fringe ministry and 99.9% of everyone in this forum would agree. They deny the Trinity and call the Holy Spirit a person-less "power" of God. In other words - NOT GOD. That is BLASPHEMY plain and simple. 

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 7:54 PM

Super Tramp:

The last thing I want to see happen to Logos is to cow-tow to censorship from forum posters. There are truly more posters in this very thread that hold to what may indeed be "heretical" views of scripture than I have seen in Bible Study Magazine.

To prove my point just imagine what everyone's answers would be if they had to name the most correct Bible version. (Please, imagine it, don't go saying it out loud!)

I find it sad so many shake in their boots to discover there may be others who "got it wrong" and have not yet been burned at the stake. It is no exaggeration 95% of Logos resources are in direct contradiction with all other resources. 

People can be (and are) wrong about many things. If they are truly seeking to know the truth, there is still a chance they will stumble across it, especially with a little help from God. 

I fully understand what you are saying and I agree. But this goes beyond the ads "taste-less" ridiculing of modern translations and ordering. This "edited" Bible promotes an overtly heretical theology.

Should Logos sell the Watchtower Society's "New World Translation"? Yes.

Should Logos allow this Bible to be promoted as a legitimate "Christian" resource? No.

 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 8:08 PM

Josh:

John D. Barry:

For this reason, I have very much appreciated this debate, but want to continue to encourage everyone to keep it focused on Logos' content, not content that is advertised in Bible Study Magazine.

This sounds like PR spin. Logos is responsible for ALL the content in its magazine.

That ad was paid for by a heretical fringe ministry and 99.9% of everyone in this forum would agree. They deny the Trinity and call the Holy Spirit a person-less "power" of God. In other words - NOT GOD. That is BLASPHEMY plain and simple. 

WWeell, I guess I am that zero point one percent. I believe that he was silently inferring to the name calling that might become of this thread. Discussion is one thing, debating again another, both to which he doesn’t seem to frown upon nor discourage, therein lay some truth.

Yet, when we stoop to the name bashing towards one who is not present to vindicate nor state the reasoning behind their systemic belief or theology, well, I think that that’s just not right, others may disagree. Just because their theology is different and they may interpret the Scriptures differently does not mean they are not any less convinced that they are correct and see others as incorrect, but from what I have seen from the add, it doesn't appear that they are calling any one incorrect, but the reviews that appear on the amazon site well.......Shame on them....

Josh, no disrespect intended, but if you feel so strongly against what they stand for and know some of their theology, I would think that it would be justifiable if you contacted them...or at the least get the version and read it for yourself, this way you know first hand what they put out as print.....

As for Law-gos, they may have reasons that we are not aware of, and well, that is their peragotive….we have signed no contract that states we agree to buy everything that they promote or have listed etc.,etc..

 

Hope this helps.

 

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Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 8:11 PM

Room4more:

WWeell, I guess I am that zero point one percent.

You deny that the Holy Spirit is God?

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 8:19 PM

Josh:

Room4more:

WWeell, I guess I am that zero point one percent.

You deny that the Holy Spirit is God?

I did not state that did I? Nor will I go meet in the middle of town with an unarm’d person, but thanks for asking. Please stay focus’d….its not me you are hunting....

Hope this helps.

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