Questionable "Bible Study Magazine" Ad

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Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 8:45 PM

Josh:
I fully understand what you are saying and I agree. But this goes beyond the ads "taste-less" ridiculing of modern translations and ordering. This "edited" Bible promotes an overtly heretical theology.

Big Smile Josh, I have done my share of ridiculing the "flavor-of-the-week" club of new Bible versions. I can not believe how many hundreds of versions "scholars" keep publishing without admitting they got it "wrong" somewhere in each of the previous versions. How many "do-overs" should we allow them before we determine they are incapable of publishing a perfect version? It makes one question their motives......

Josh:
Should Logos sell the Watchtower Society's "New World Translation"? Yes.

I would buy it for my own reasons but that isn't going to happen due to copyright issues. 

Josh:
Should Logos allow this Bible to be promoted as a legitimate "Christian" resource?

Logos is not promoting the product in question.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 10114
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 9:23 PM

ST ... are you sure you said what you meant?

Promote and advertise at least in business are the same, advertisements usually being  a subset of promotions.

I notice Joel Osteen defined 'Christian' pretty loosely today for one of the candidates. Maybe .1% is pretty common.


Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 9:27 PM

Super Tramp:

Logos is not promoting the product in question.

Logos selectively chooses what advertisements it wants to run. While they are not themselves promoting the theology of Fred Coulter, they have allowed it's promotion in their Bible Study magazine. In essence, Logos has indirectly deemed it a legitimate "Christian" resource.

Most of us would agree that Logos should offer the New World Translation (though it probably will never happen due to copyrights). But how many of us would agree that Logos should label it as a legitimate "Christian" resource?

The issue is how Logos presents resources, not what they present.

 

Edit: I just want to clarify once more, the ad in question is promoting a resource that holds to a non-trinitarian theology. And that is only one of its many heretical positions. It is certainly not a legitimate "Christian" resource - Logos statement of faith even agrees with me on this point.

 

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 24 2012 10:05 PM

Josh:

The issue is how Logos presents resources, not what they present.

Edit: I just want to clarify once more, the ad in question is promoting a resource that holds to a non-trinitarian theology. And that is only one of its many heretical positions. It is certainly not a legitimate "Christian" resource - Logos statement of faith even agrees with me on this point.

oooohhh I read it now, it is because they are not trinitarian that you have a problem.....that's it, right...ok thats kewl...

Ok: just say that HQ admits that they knowingly put the ad in – bottom line----what’cha gonna do?

1-boycott them?

2-sue them?

3-stop using their software?

4-pick up your toys and go home?

-----?

while we are on the subject by what credentials are we to say what is "christian" and what is not?

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 999
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 12:54 AM

Josh:

Super Tramp:

Logos is not promoting the product in question.

Logos selectively chooses what advertisements it wants to run. While they are not themselves promoting the theology of Fred Coulter, they have allowed it's promotion in their Bible Study magazine. In essence, Logos has indirectly deemed it a legitimate "Christian" resource.

Most of us would agree that Logos should offer the New World Translation (though it probably will never happen due to copyrights). But how many of us would agree that Logos should label it as a legitimate "Christian" resource?

The issue is how Logos presents resources, not what they present.

 

Edit: I just want to clarify once more, the ad in question is promoting a resource that holds to a non-trinitarian theology. And that is only one of its many heretical positions. It is certainly not a legitimate "Christian" resource - Logos statement of faith even agrees with me on this point.

 

I am in full agreement with you.

Posts 26262
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 1:46 AM

Josh:
It is certainly not a legitimate "Christian" resource

Most categorization schemes include non-trinitarian views under Christian. I would be concerned by any categorization that used the one attribute to label such resources as "non-Christian" It is an ancient and on-going variant of Christianity. From Wikipedia (as I don't appear to have the relevant church history resources in Logos - probably because I have few church history books.)

"Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.[6] Nontrinitarianism was later renewed in the Gnosticism of the Cathars in the 11th through 13th centuries, in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, and in some groups arising during the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century.

Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God."

You will note that several active members of the forums fall into these groups. It is inappropriate to put down other forum members' theology. Logos has asked you multiple times to cease and desist. Please let it go.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:01 AM

Super Tramp:
If the "majority" of Logos users are "correct" in their conclusions on what the Bible says and means

From what I've seen in the forums I find it hard to believe there could be any majority consensus on anything beyond "most Bibles are printed in black ink on white paper". Even there, I'd expect serious discussion of how white paper has to be to be counted as white, and how dark the ink has to be to be counted as black.

Which, of course, I expect to be associated with:

[II:8 A]       R. Pinhas in the name of R. Simeon b. Laqish, “The Torah which the Holy One, blessed be he, gave―the hide on which it is written is white fire. The letters with which it is engraved are black fire. It is fire, surrounded with fire, engraved out of fire, and set in fire. ‘With flaming fire at his right hand’ ” (Deut. 33:2).

Jacob Neusner, The Jerusalem Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 2008).

Good to see you back on the forums ST.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:15 AM

Room4more:
Yet, when we stoop to the name bashing towards one who is not present to vindicate nor state the reasoning behind their systemic belief or theology, well, I think that that’s just not right,

YesYes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:40 AM

Room4more:

oooohhh I read it now, it is because they are not trinitarian that you have a problem.....that's it, right...ok thats kewl...

Well, that is one reason, yes.

 

Room4more:

Ok: just say that HQ admits that they knowingly put the ad in – bottom line----what’cha gonna do?

1-boycott them?

2-sue them?

3-stop using their software?

4-pick up your toys and go home?

-----?

while we are on the subject by what credentials are we to say what is "christian" and what is not?

 

As a customer, I have the right to complain. Logos has the right to ignore me. However, there is a chance that Logos might consider my complaint and agree with me. 

I'm actually astonished that you have a problem with me calling someone who denies the Godhood of the Holy Spirit a false believer. It's like saying the Muslim God and the Christian God are the same divine being. Since the Muslim denies Jesus is God, the Muslim does not believe in the same God the Christians do. In the same sense, if Fred Coulter does not believe the Holy Spirit is God, then he does not believe in the same God the Christians do. Quite simple actually.

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:44 AM

MJ. Smith:

Josh:
It is certainly not a legitimate "Christian" resource

Most categorization schemes include non-trinitarian views under Christian. I would be concerned by any categorization that used the one attribute to label such resources as "non-Christian" It is an ancient and on-going variant of Christianity. From Wikipedia (as I don't appear to have the relevant church history resources in Logos - probably because I have few church history books.)

I trust the Bible on this issue, not Wikipedia. The HOLY SPIRIT is God. I can't believe that I am being rebuked for trying to stand up for this belief. How can you possibly call someone a true Christian if they don't even believe in the true God?

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 4:57 AM

Josh:

I'm actually astonished that you have a problem with me calling someone who denies the Godhood of the Holy Spirit a false believer. It's like saying the Muslim God and the Christian God are the same divine being. Since the Muslim denies Jesus is God, the Muslim does not believe in the same God the Christians do. In the same sense, if Fred Coulter does not believe the Holy Spirit is God, then he does not believe in the same God the Christians do. Quite simple actually.

This may be true concerning Mr.Coulter, and should it be true, then consult him when he is present. How do you know that he does not believe in the same god as what many consider christians, did you ask him?

How does the Bible describe the 'godhead', is it clear enough to say it is this or it is that?

Should you want to call someone a name that critiques their belief, then at the least give them the opportunity to speak up as well - so far he[Coulter] has not made it to class.

I do not understand how or why you would be astonished............

*****

But getting back to the ad, theres not really much you can do....is there?

Zip it!

****by the way Josh, to which denomination to do you ascribe to, if you do not mind answering?

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 5:28 AM

Josh:
I can't believe that I am being rebuked for trying to stand up for this belief.

Standing up for true doctrine is, of course, a good thing in itself, but not on these forums! Every Logos user should be able to come here for help with Logos Bible Software, without finding himself called things like "heretic", "blasphemer", "not Christian" or "false believer". We all consider a good part of all other forum participants to be more or less heretic, but we don't have to say it out loud! If you walk into a shop and start shouting insults at the other customers, the owner/manager is quickly going to ask you to shut up or leave, to paraphrase what Bob once said. Allowing your customers to be insulted isn't good for business. Hence the forum guidelines.

If you go to R4m's profile page, you'll find he's Christadelphian, so of course he's insulted by your words. I can't believe you don't understand that. I suggest you apologize -- not for your beliefs, but for your manners.

Josh:
Since the Muslim denies Jesus is God, the Muslim does not believe in the same God the Christians do.

Jews also deny that Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) is God, so by that logic they don't believe in the same God either, and nor did Abraham, Moses, David and the other OT figures. If that ad had been for the JPS Tanach, would you have been equally upset at it being non-trinitatian, equally quick to shout about heresy and blasphemy? Do you realize that there may be Jews reading this thread, and that you're insulting them as well in your zeal to defend the Holy Trinity?

So again: these forums are a meeting place for Logos users, not for any particular brand of 'orthodox' Christianity, and all Logos users should be able to feel welcome.

 

Logos: I haven't seen the ad, so I'm just speaking generally here, but there is an option of being open when it comes to who can advertise, yet more strict when it comes to how they can advertise. One can e g demand that all products and publishers that aren't as well known as, say, Eerdmans and the NIV, include some kind of 'identifier', like "a Unitarian translation" or "ABC Press -- the publishing branch of the XYZ church". That would seem to fit well with Bob's words in the quote in Dennis' post.  (Or you can simply make sure to sell so many ads you like that there isn't any room left for those you'd rather not have. Big Smile)

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 5:56 AM

MJ. Smith:
From what I've seen in the forums I find it hard to believe there could be any majority consensus on anything beyond "most Bibles are printed in black ink on white paper". Even there, I'd expect serious discussion of how white paper has to be to be counted as white, and how dark the ink has to be to be counted as black.

Big Smile

(Unfortunately, I suspect the discussion would be even worse than that: you forgot the issue with 'red-letter' Bibles. Smile)

Hmm, it really is hard to come up with something we'd agree on. I've thought of multiple things now, only to realize a minute later that, no, not even that... I guess we might possibly all agree that Bob Pritchett is the CEO of Logos. Big Smile

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 6:01 AM

MJ. Smith:
You will note that several active members of the forums fall into these groups. It is inappropriate to put down other forum members' theology. Logos has asked you multiple times to cease and desist. Please let it go.
Well said MJ

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 6:10 AM

fgh:
One can e g demand that all products and publishers that aren't as well known as, say, Eerdmans and the NIV, include some kind of 'identifier', like "a Unitarian translation" or "ABC Press -- the publishing branch of the XYZ church".

The only issue that I see with this is that most publishing houses tend to be less than forthcoming when it comes to their denominational ties, especially when it is a denomination that concentrates their publications on proselytizing...

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 6:14 AM

Josh:
I trust the Bible on this issue, not Wikipedia. The HOLY SPIRIT is God. I can't believe that I am being rebuked for trying to stand up for this belief. How can you possibly call someone a true Christian if they don't even believe in the true God?
But the doctrine of the Trinity is not in scripture; it is an interpretation of scripture (every knee will bow, every interpretation confess, ...) The only exception to this is 1 John 5:7 in the KJV, and the author of the bible in question happens to be correct in this situation.

The problem that I see is that we are assuming that we are all working with the same definition of "Christian."  For some people, to be called a Christian, you must believe in the Trinity.  For others, they will use, and I believe to be a more biblical understanding, one who follows the Christ (Jesus).  This comes from Acts 11:26.

I consider the ISBE to be a very conservative source, and it states:

Though “trinity” is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement, the NT does contain most of the building materials for later doctrine.

Geoffrey W. Bromiley, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1988; 2002). 914.

Please note that it uses the phrase "most of the."  It doesn't say all of the...

Posts 2824
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 7:23 AM

Ward Walker:

It's for exactly this reason that I only use the KJV 1610--written at least a year before the serious errors began   Confused

 

Not me. I go back all the way back to the 1984 NIV, like God intended.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 7:29 AM

Josh,

Godhead – not very promising….

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 386
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 8:45 AM

Room4more:

Josh:

The issue is how Logos presents resources, not what they present.

Edit: I just want to clarify once more, the ad in question is promoting a resource that holds to a non-trinitarian theology. And that is only one of its many heretical positions. It is certainly not a legitimate "Christian" resource - Logos statement of faith even agrees with me on this point.

 

oooohhh I read it now, it is because they are not trinitarian that you have a problem.....that's it, right...ok thats kewl...

Ok: just say that HQ admits that they knowingly put the ad in – bottom line----what’cha gonna do?

1-boycott them?

2-sue them?

3-stop using their software?

4-pick up your toys and go home?

-----?

while we are on the subject by what credentials are we to say what is "christian" and what is not?

 

I will let the WORD speak for itself!!!

Matthew 7 - NIV

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 9:48 AM

John D. Barry:

I greatly appreciate the debate about this topic, but this isn't the best place for it, since that's not the intent of the Logos forums. Please feel free to email me directly at john@biblestudymagazine.com.

A quick reminder about our forum guidelines for these types of discussions: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

Concur debate belongs elsewhere, perhaps =>  http://www.theologyonline.com/

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about using Logos Bible Software: personally have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.  Logos 4 has many awesome capabilities for Bible study.

Keep Smiling Smile

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