Questionable "Bible Study Magazine" Ad

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 12:08 PM

MJD:

Matthew 7 - NIV

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’  

Hey thanks MJD, I think those work rather well when coupled with:

Matthew 16:15-17 (NIV)
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

And:

Acts 10:34-39 (NIV)
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
37 You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached--
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,

It show’s that it was God, the Father of Christ, that revealed to Peter the true Identity of the Real Jesus, even to the point that Peter carried this understanding when he did his first sermon…and did not waver from it. 

That’s just amazing, isn’t it? 

But let’s face it, neither of these two comments deal with the ad in the mag, but maybe I got mine from this particular Bible just to show that it may be worth reading and that these versus are the same but used the NIV since that is what you used……?

Thanks for sharing.

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1497
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 12:12 PM

Room4more:

Josh:

I'm actually astonished that you have a problem with me calling someone who denies the Godhood of the Holy Spirit a false believer. It's like saying the Muslim God and the Christian God are the same divine being. Since the Muslim denies Jesus is God, the Muslim does not believe in the same God the Christians do. In the same sense, if Fred Coulter does not believe the Holy Spirit is God, then he does not believe in the same God the Christians do. Quite simple actually.

 

This may be true concerning Mr.Coulter, and should it be true, then consult him when he is present. How do you know that he does not believe in the same god as what many consider christians, did you ask him?

How does the Bible describe the 'godhead', is it clear enough to say it is this or it is that?

Should you want to call someone a name that critiques their belief, then at the least give them the opportunity to speak up as well - so far he[Coulter] has not made it to class.

I do not understand how or why you would be astonished............

*****

But getting back to the ad, theres not really much you can do....is there?

Zip it!

I'm astonished because we are not discussing some non-foundational issue like the rapture. We are taking about the very nature of who God is. Fred Coulter's own ministry has a list of beliefs on their website. They are very clear that they do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person co-equal with Jesus and the Father as God. I'm not putting words into his mouth. He does not need to be present to defend himself. His belief is plain.

If you want to go ahead and minimize this blasphemous position, go ahead. I'm only agreeing with what Logo's itself believes! And that was the whole point. I wanted to point that out to them. I'm under the assumption they might not have known.

Room4more:

****by the way Josh, to which denomination to do you ascribe to, if you do not mind answering?

 

I currently am part of the EFCA.

 

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 12:29 PM

Tradidi enim vobis in primis quod et accepi : quoniam Christus mortuus est pro peccatis nostris secundum Scripturas : et quia sepultus est, et quia resurrexit tertia die secundum Scripturas

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 1:17 PM

Josh:

I'm astonished because we are not discussing some non-foundational issue like the rapture. We are taking about the very nature of who God is. Fred Coulter's own ministry has a list of beliefs on their website. They are very clear that they do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person co-equal with Jesus and the Father as God. I'm not putting words into his mouth. He does not need to be present to defend himself. His belief is plain.

If you want to go ahead and minimize this blasphemous position, go ahead. I'm only agreeing with what Logo's itself believes! And that was the whole point. I wanted to point that out to them. I'm under the assumption they might not have known.

Josh,

I like you strongly believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, while the term is absent from Scripture, I believe it best describes everything the Bible says about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I don't know if you realized this, but Room4more is a Christadelphian (non-Trinitarian) so that is where he is coming from.

Logos has asked us to rather than tell each other they are wrong, and why, to focus on using the software for Bible study. A more fruitful methodology in keeping with the forum guidelines would be to give suggestions on how one might use Logos to study the doctrine of the Trinity for themselves. Then we can allow the Holy Spirit to do His job, He is the Person Jesus said would lead us into all truth.

 

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” (John 16:13, NIV84)  

 

A good place to start would be to search for the word "Trinity" from the homepage. This will provides links to various dictionary articles ect. Many of these will include Scripture references regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also since the word "Godhead" is in Scripture this could be another place to start.

Does anyone else have suggestions on how to use Logos to study the Trinity? I would be very much interested.

 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 1:34 PM

Philana Crouch:
A more fruitful methodology in keeping with the forum guidelines would be to give suggestions on how one might use Logos to study the doctrine of the Trinity for themselves. Then we can allow the Holy Spirit to do His job, He is the Person Jesus said would lead us into all truth.

Yes  (Provided it is done when someone indicates an interest, and not with a you're-a-heretic-so-you-should-study-this-subject kind of attitude.)

Philana Crouch:
Does anyone else have suggestions on how to use Logos to study the Trinity? I would be very much interested.

Then I suggest you start a new thread, rather than lead this one even more astray.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 6
P. R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 1:36 PM

I'm echoing you, Josh.  I'm disappointed in Logos, but I'm shocked that the first order, non-negotiable Doctrine of the Trinity is being tossed aside on a mere whim by some forum readers, or if not tossed aside put on some second and third tier backburner.

This ad is a big enough issue that I'm sending a concerned letter.  I expect better than typical corporate jargon and side-stepping of an issue from a Christian company.  I will cancel if I get such an answer.

But seriously... it's the TRINITY we're talking about, people...  It might not be first tier for some, but there is a reason why virtually every serious Biblical scholar and apologist going back farther than Augustine fought for it.

Posts 26530
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 1:40 PM

Josh:
How can you possibly call someone a true Christian if they don't even believe in the true God?

I have said nothing regarding what I believe is a "true Christian" and I have no intention of doing so. You have the right to complain through proper channels. Your original post constituted that complaint. What you don't have the right to do is insult other forum members, ignore forum guidelines, and defy Logos request that you drop it. At this point I believe that any non-trinitatian has the right to complain to Logos that this thread constitutes abuse so please zip it.Zip it!

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 1:59 PM

Josh:
Logos selectively chooses what advertisements it wants to run.

The magazine is called Bible Study Magazine, not Bible Doctrine Magazine. If I thought I could fill Heaven by kicking the fire out of people with heretical beliefs, I would go get me some pointy boots and start kicking. I do not subscribe to BSM since after the first year. 

But I have some news for you; There are employess who work at Logos who you would call heretical in their views of Bible doctrine. There are Logos employees and customers who you would pronounce lost to an eternity of Hell (if you believe in "Hell.") I won't make a big deal about the ad or other people's heresy because:

  1. I can not do anything proactive to effect real change in their situation.
  2. God is the only fit Judge of anyone.
  3. Logos is not the church.
  4. I would be a hypocrite because I do dine in restaurants where the food is prepared by souls I believe will burn in Hell.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:26 PM

MJ. Smith:
At this point I believe that any non-trinitatian has the right to complain to Logos that this thread constitutes abuse so please zip it.Zip it!
Yes

Posts 2718
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:27 PM

Just because you find something objectionable doesn't make it so. I don't have a clue about this man or his organization and if he doesn't believe in the Trinity I think he's wrong, but I'm also not Catholic or Holiness or Pentecostal, but I wouldn't object to any of them advertising in BSM. I like the mag and I am smart enough to tell the difference between the ads and the editorial content. I suggest those who don't like ad unsubscribe or never start receiving.

See I can defend Logos! Smile

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:32 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
See I can defend Logos! Smile
Yes

FYI... I think it is very easy to defend Logos here because they are doing the correct thing (IMHO).  I think it is a show of strength when a person or a company is willing to include views that they do not agree with.  

Posts 6
P. R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:35 PM

There is still a problem with your comparison, though:

Catholic, Trinitarian.  Holiness, Trinitarian.  Pentecostal, Trinitary.

If we start down the unorthodox route, then BSM becomes the place you can come to study the Bible and find out about whatever God you want.  I disagree with those three also, but recognize my argument is one of form, and not based on the core Christian belief of the Trinity.  Every major schism in our Christian history left a body of believers and reformers who were Trinitarian.  Those doctrines were not up for debate.

Posts 2718
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:42 PM

Paul Miller:

There is still a problem with your comparison, though:

Catholic, Trinitarian.  Holiness, Trinitarian.  Pentecostal, Trinitary.

Says you. But while I disagree I know people who say all Catholics are going to hell and I know many Pentecostals and Holiness people who say I am since I don't speak in tongues. If they had their way Holman products wouldn't be allowed since they're from the Baptist printing company. Wouldn't bother me if someone advertised an app that was used to read texts of world religions like the Works of Confucious and the Bagadvagita (spelling way wrong on that too lazy to look up).

Posts 6
P. R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 2:48 PM

I wouldn't have a problem with an app like that either.  But that's not what this ad is doing.  It is advertising a particular version of the Bible and is endorsing an agenda, with no hidden language, being advertised and designed to inspire the kind of divisive nature you seem to despise.

And by the, not "Says me", says their doctrinal statements.  I'm not arguing individual members mistakes and misinterpretations, but then again, those members aren't taking out ads in a Bible Study Magazine, but if they were I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as it didn't do something crazy like call the Trinity questionable!

Also, Holman, Trinitarian.

Posts 26530
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 3:22 PM

Paul Miller:
Those doctrines were not up for debate.

Welcome to the forums, Paul. I am sorry that I am greeting you then being negative. If you check church history, the doctrine of the trinity has been up for debate most of the time. Read my quote from Wikipedia above or search your Logos collection. However, the core of this thread is NOT trinity vs. non-trinity. It is that Logos has asked us NOT to discuss theological issues in the forums.

For those who have not already done so, please read the forum guidelines. The link is on the upper-right of the forums' home page.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 175
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 3:26 PM

Paul,

With all due respect, give it up.

We acknowledge and respect your passion about the Trinity. Please acknowledge and respect the fact that not every other follower of Jesus carries your passion about, or is willing to divide in order to conquer as you are in defense of the Trinity.

If you're not willing to offer the requested acknowledgement and respect of other followers, then perhaps you'd be willing to acknowledge the not-so-latent incongruity of your protest of a magazine ad via a software users forum.

And if you're not willing to provide that small bit of acknowledgement, then at least acknowledge and respect the clear and posted requests of the Logos team to move theological/doctrinal controversies to other arenas.

This post is not a comment on your theology or the legitimacy of your claims. Instead, this post is a plea for tolerance of others and other things when critiques of those others and other things are specifically, intentionally not germane to the community in which you offer them.

Blessings,

Bill Coley

Posts 6
P. R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 3:43 PM

Bill,

You are correct, and I have been disrespectful of the rules of the forum regarding theological issues.  I respectfully withdraw from discussion, and beg your and others pardon.

However, I hope the advertisement of the magazine everywhere on the softwares website does not confuse others like myself.  I was honestly unaware that this was not the proper place, as I purchased my magazine subscription during checkout of buying additional parts of the software.  I will read the forum rules and be more aware next time.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone or have seemed uncharitable.

Posts 1497
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 3:46 PM

MJ. Smith:

Josh:
How can you possibly call someone a true Christian if they don't even believe in the true God?

I have said nothing regarding what I believe is a "true Christian" and I have no intention of doing so. You have the right to complain through proper channels. Your original post constituted that complaint. What you don't have the right to do is insult other forum members, ignore forum guidelines, and defy Logos request that you drop it. At this point I believe that any non-trinitatian has the right to complain to Logos that this thread constitutes abuse so please zip it.Zip it!

Acts 5:27-29

And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, 28 saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

This will be my last post in the thread. If people were insulted by the fact that the Holy Spirit is God then God's Word insulted them, not me. The "political correctness" of the majority of the responses in this thread are disturbing. I will never "zip-it" when someone blasphemes my God - even if it means going against "men" (forum guidelines).

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 3:51 PM

Josh:

I'm astonished because we are not discussing some non-foundational issue like the rapture.

No, we are not - so why bring it up?

Josh:

We are taking about the very nature of who God is.

When did this happen? 

At this point I have no real intention of talking about the rapture Zip it! , or the trinity Zip it!  . Mainly because I get the impression from your posts that, well, you might not know enough about it or its beginnings. But Logos does have a repertoire of books on the matter, both for and against, yes against…..Surprise  

But the real dilemma is that per our other conversations, you jump like a rabbit being chased by a squirrel, ever seen this happen? It’s quite amusing to watch…..Indifferent

I am not offended in the slightest but I have to agree with the others concerning the non-objective attitude and the eagerness to condemn another you have never met nor wish to question regarding their belief, speaking directly of Mr.Coulter. to me that’s just plain not right[look at me I am beginning to repeat myself…Hmm ]

So, if you can offer some better comments or insights concerning the ad, other than what you have stated, that require more than one-liners, well then you have my attention…..

I do come close to crossing the line with regards to the guidelines, I admit, but I am smart enough to know where that boundary is…..

Thanks .

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 638
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 25 2012 3:53 PM

All the doctrinal debate aside, the issue should come down to the controversial attacks of the ad.If Logos wants to avoid it in the forums, why allow attacks against certain translations in an ad? For those that have a major issue with it simply cancel your subscriptions and Logos will get the point you will not support a magazine that allows the attack ads.

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