So long Logos4...

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:04 AM

Phil Jagger:

Based on this I truly question the decisions made by Logos 4 NOT to cater for networking environments; 

Actually, Phil, Logos HAS catered to what they see as the COMING networking environment--cloud. Sync settings, licenses, & master copies of all the resources are now held in the cloud "for" us, as is a growing body of "community" data. 

HOME networking, while of interest to you & me, is the archtecture of the immediate present, perhaps soon to be past.

If you've lived with us through v. 2, v. 3, & now v. 4, then you know that Bob has bet the farm each time on the architecture that's coming. You (and I) don't like it, but so far Bob's been on target (with the possible exception of WPF).

I don't like cloud either. To me, in too many ways it's a return to the days of "big iron" architectures that distributed computing was supposed to save us from. I still prefer distributed...

So while I feel your pain (literally, each time I've had to rebuild L4), unless industry picks a different "future" architecture, I don't see Logos moving away from cloud any time soon.

Many blessings to you.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:11 AM

Phil Jagger:

Thanks for your response MJ. 

My point about responses is that it is rather glib to respond to people's complaint with "I've had no problems"  This sort of response is inane and unhelpful.

Beyond this it appears to me that Logos 4 whilst catering for what they perceive to be a majority are going totally against the growing home network environment where media and resources are shared from a common NETWORK source.

Based on this I truly question the decisions made by Logos 4 NOT to cater for networking environments; and if Andrew's comments are a small reflection of the disappointment experienced by people who have used BOTH the Libronix and Logos 4 software, then I suspect that Logos 4 deserve the flack for the hard-line decisions they have made.

Having made those decisions it is totally inappropriate to tell people that this new software is better when in fact their experience is a huge backward step.  No amount of hanging in there is going to convince such people otherwise.  There are some people who expect value for their money and lets NOT forget that Logos commands the highest price for this experience.

Bottom line... If the Emperor is naked, he's naked..

Regards Phil

I was a part of the beta testing so I have been in on L4 from the beginning.  At first I was not too impressed with L4.  Perhaps it was the fact that it was still under develoopment (well, it still actually is Smile), but I preferred L3 for some time.  Today I still use L3 for some things such as calculating weights and measures (L4 doesn't have that facility), but I have gradually switched to nearly exclusive use of L4.  I like it though there are still a few points that irritate me such as the fact that it is necessary to drag a resource from the menu to where you want it unless you're content to let L4 open it where it jolly well pleases—I rather wish that certain types of resources could be designated to open in certain locations (original language texts on the left, lexicons on the right, etc).  It hasn't been all peaches and cream.  I've had a few frustrations along the way.  I would ask, have you really given it a fair shot?  This means, have you availed yourself of the help of other members of the forum or, if necessary, tech support?  I would recommend that you not be too hasty.  I'm still working on understanding how to construct sytax searches.  Supposedly they're good for searching for information other searches can't find, but I find them frustrating.  Perhaps I'm too YOUNG.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:14 AM

imho

BillS:
(with the possible exception of WPF)

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:15 AM

George Somsel:
few points that irritate me such as the fact that it is necessary to drag a resource from the menu to where you want it unless you're content to let L4 open it where it jolly well pleases—I rather wish that certain types of resources could be designated to open in certain locations (original language texts on the left, lexicons on the right, etc). 
Yes

Posts 6490
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:24 AM

Has anyone noticed that the OP has not returned to say whether or not the problem was solved? Been with L4 since it was beta tested, and it did have a learning curve. I use the beta almost exclusively, and like it.

Maybe I am too easy to please, but I simply make do with what it is. It works for me. What intrigues me, is the fact that I live in the Caribbean (Bahamas) and I know of other developing nations where broadband is no longer metered. My ISP no longer offers a metered package, and they say they are unable to tell me what my monthly usage is. My only gripe with downloading is, the download speed is rather slow, whether on a 6M fiber at the office, or a 3Mb coaxial cable at home. The download time seems the same. Amazon please fix this.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:38 AM

Lynden Williams:
I know of other developing nations where broadband is no longer metered. My ISP no longer offers a metered package, and they say they are unable to tell me what my monthly usage is.

I suppose I would need to say that my usage is metered; however, I've exceeded it rather consistently every month without being penalized in any way.  I did finally decide to upgrade to a higher speed which came with greater limits, but that had to do with speed and not limits.

Lynden Williams:
Amazon please fix this.

Amazon is in the cable business?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 6490
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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:44 AM

We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:53 AM

Lynden Williams:

We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.

My understanding was that Logos was thinking about using Amazon's servers.  I do not recall reading a post stating that they are using their servers.  Then again, I only read a very small percentage of the posts.

Posts 7
Phil Jagger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:54 AM

BillS:

Phil Jagger:

Based on this I truly question the decisions made by Logos 4 NOT to cater for networking environments; 

 

Actually, Phil, Logos HAS catered to what they see as the COMING networking environment--cloud. Sync settings, licenses, & master copies of all the resources are now held in the cloud "for" us, as is a growing body of "community" data. 

HOME networking, while of interest to you & me, is the architecture of the immediate present, perhaps soon to be past.

If you've lived with us through v. 2, v. 3, & now v. 4, then you know that Bob has bet the farm each time on the architecture that's coming. You (and I) don't like it, but so far Bob's been on target (with the possible exception of WPF).

I don't like cloud either. To me, in too many ways it's a return to the days of "big iron" architectures that distributed computing was supposed to save us from. I still prefer distributed...

So while I feel your pain (literally, each time I've had to rebuild L4), unless industry picks a different "future" architecture, I don't see Logos moving away from cloud any time soon.

Many blessings to you.

I hear you Bill but if I were Bob I'd be worried about the farm...

  • Cloud computing is congruent with fibre infrastructure - a commodity that is not yet rolled out in all countries including mine.
  • Data cost are becoming prohibitive - many international airports have ceased offering patrons free wifi because of this fact.
  • As cloud computing becomes more entrenched, data costs will increase accordingly
  • The choice to use the cloud as a software end user SHOULD be a choice not an in imperative

I am also observing a phenomenon which is highlighted in forums such as this and that is that we start off as consumers, we invest heavily both with finances and time into getting the best out of that software and then when it evolves in a somewhat degenerate manner, we still champion the software because we have become a family of sojourners who need this software to work because we've given it so much of our attention.

From a consumer's point of view, although I applaud the recent comments for being open and honest about the various frustrations of this software, they make a perfect point that consumers are NOT getting value for money and that as end users rather than wishing things were different (better) we should be demanding better form from the developers.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 9:58 AM

Lynden Williams:

We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.

"We" as in Logos users?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 10:03 AM

George Somsel:
"We" as in Logos users?

Yes, as per Bradley -  http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48920/364835.aspx#364835 - Logos use Amazon servers to host the resources they distribute to us

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 10:04 AM

tom collinge:

Lynden Williams:

We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.

My understanding was that Logos was thinking about using Amazon's servers.  I do not recall reading a post stating that they are using their servers.  Then again, I only read a very small percentage of the posts.

One post of many:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Right now, Amazon S3 is delivering good value for the cost.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48920/364835.aspx#364835

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 3578
steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 10:22 AM

To let others know that all of us are not completely satisfied with L4, i'm posting a short list of positives & negatives. i've noticed that some who post on the forum get frustrated when they see many users trying to say only positive things about the software.

Negatives

Indexing -- on older computers (such as mine) indexing causes crashing frequently and requires a LOT of coaxing to get my library indexed and working again (usually a couple of long days). Also the number of times a year that re-indexing is required seems excessive.

Lack of Backup/Restore of personal data -- over the past years i've lost information a few times. i wish Logos would provide tools for local backup & restore for our personal data. As a work-around i've learned to do a full backup on an external HD and been able many times to reinstall via method 2 in the wiki. Although this is not always possible. And when it does work, it takes a significant amount of time and work.

Slow progress of a finished product -- it has been a long ride with Logos on getting the features added to the software. Many times this is frustrating to me as a user. Fortunately virtually no other software that i own puts me in this situation. i'm not sure that i would want to go thru this again with a future version of Logos software.

 

Positives

With the new user interface and the forum, i was better able to figure out how the software was intended to work. In L3, i never figured out many of the features since the help files were so poorly written (e.g. Parallel resources, Passage Lists, Key word, etc). The L3 help files were very very brief and most of the time it was incredibly difficult to search and locate what i needed. But now i have a pretty good handle on how to do much more in L4.

As mentioned above, the forum has been a great help. Many generous users have helped me along my journey in learning to utilize L4. (Thanks to all of you!)

Logos has provided a wiki where we share instructions on how the software works. (Thank you Logos and fellow users!)

Mark Barnes' videos have been very useful to me and others. (Thanks Mark!)

 

QLinks, Bibl2, LLR, Macros
Dell Insp 17-5748, i5, 1.7 GHz, 8G RAM, win 8.1

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 10:44 AM

steve clark:
Logos has providing a wiki where we share instructions on how the software works. (Thank you Logos and fellow users!)

And I who thought you were the one providing the Wiki. Big Smile

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 10:58 AM

My .02, and I have voiced this opinion before, there are a few issues Logos needs to address; or they already are, we can only hope!

1. When Logos 4 first came out, it was rough - it was really not ready to come out. But then, over the next 6 months or so, updates of features came out at a blistering pace. It was not only a significant improvement to the product, but it was FUN, plus you almost had the feeling anything you found that was of reasonable significance, gosh darn it was either going to get fixed or improved. Life was good.

But then, improvement has slowed down DRAMATICALLY; now there are still functions that have not been fully implemented, errors and bugs to be fixed, etc - this includes big stuff too.  Go through the wiki and look at the list of features added to Logos 4 in the last 6 months; there's very little there. Why? Logos is working on other platforms (Faithlife, Vyrso, Proclaim, iOS, Android), plumbing (iterations of sync that are still not complete), and who knows what other plumbing and stuff "under the covers".  This is all well and good, but from a user perspective, right now, it's as if very little is being done to improve the desktop products (Mac and PC).

2. The other big problem IMHO is some of the anomalies/problems/issues with the UI.  Logos bet on Microsoft's WPF, and they found out fixing problems or improving things is out of their control; plus MS is moving extremely slowly, if at ll, on WPF improvements. Maybe Logos is rewriting the UI to not use WPF, which is worthless on all these other platforms Logos supports?

3. We have lost any real insight on plans and scheduled for Logos. Used to be, we had some feeling, by quarter at least, of new functions coming. No more, communication has virtually stopped and some of what gets posted can be perceived as defensive. Are things so in flux or unpredictable that Logos just doesn't feel comfortable communicating any more? Are they so distracted they have forgotten about us?

I can't say we really know anything Logos plans to implement feature/function wise right now.  Users could be complaining about things that are being implemented as we speak.  Logos could help themselves a whole lot by being much more transparent with what is going on.  Logos 4 is a good product with great potential, but I really think Logos may not realize some of the sentiments that a growing number of users have.

Posts 5262
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 12:06 PM

Oh my i appreciate all your issues and am starting to feel very lucky to be using the mac version. I am not saying the mac version is not buggier than it should be, indeed buggy to such a level it really still does fell like beta software. For myself i am lucky it functions well for me other than often needing to be forced quit or occasionally when in the background for too long it unexpectedly quits. I have experienced download issues (always due to my iso which is satellite based, and when a program update has been downloaded incompletely it requires manually downloading the program to update properly but I do not blame Logos for that. I have never had to redownload my library other than on my iPhone (the items i keep on it). Logos is far from what i would hope it to be but I am glad it works relatively well for myself.

-Dan

Posts 10521
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 4:44 PM

Well, regarding 'the cloud', we're happy we're saying 'goodbye' to as much 'internet automatic support' as we can. Our little cellular hotspot is heaven-sent; works wherever we go. McCloud California, believe or not. Dumped our 'by the minutes' cell phones. Will be dumping our high-end satellite TV support and likely going back to land-lines to Japan. Net savings is quite significant. Friends far more wealthier than us are doing the same. Getting tired of ways for companies to take our money without asking.

Software that wants mucho gigabyte support is going to have to find another home.

(I MUST add the Libronix 'download what you need' is just great!! I'd never dreamed this software would fit in so nicely. What a great puppy. And he let's us do backups, move licenses and more!)

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 19
Jason B | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 7:22 PM

I'm a long time user of Logos back when it was Libronix v2, then greatly appreciated v3. While I do enjoy many of the benefits of Logos4 and how it does things, I do find it to be sluggish to use and in general more of a hassle in some ways than Libronix v3.  However, with that being said, I'm pretty much converted over now to using Logos4 and a lot of the improvements have been welcome and a delight.

My main problem I have with Logos is in the customer support department. I work for a software company as a senior product support specialist, so I'm very familiar with supporting software and the end user of the software, and I must say that when I called Logos support having difficulty using part of the software because of lack of documentation on how to use it, the lady who took my support call after doing some initial fact finding about the reason for my call to support, promptly told me that since I was not calling with a functional problem with Logos that my problem was just a training issue and pointed me to Morris Proctor.  To say the least I was floored and shocked that when I called for support asking how to use the software because I was in a bind and really needed help, they refused me help and instead pointed me towards their paid training resources rather than trying to help me as a customer who has invested a LOT of hard earned cash into this company over the years. To say the least I felt abused as a customer and had I tried that in the company I work for, I would have been wrote up at the very least or possibly even fired at the very worst for not providing support to our customer base.  So while I do admit to loving a lot of the tools and functionality of Logos4, I'm very sour on how I'm treated as a customer and that experience has left me feeling abused and used, rather than helped and supported.  Overall you have a good product Logos, but a software company is only as good as the support that stands behind their product, and in that department, from my experience, you are failing.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2012 7:50 PM

Jason B:
So while I do admit to loving a lot of the tools and functionality of Logos4, I'm very sour on how I'm treated as a customer and that experience has left me feeling abused and used … My main problem I have with Logos is in the customer support department. I work for a software company as a senior product support specialist, so I'm very familiar with supporting software and the end user of the software, and I must say that when I called Logos support having difficulty using part of the software because of lack of documentation on how to use it, the lady who took my support call after doing some initial fact finding about the reason for my call to support, promptly told me that since I was not calling with a functional problem with Logos that my problem was just a training issue and pointed me to Morris Proctor. 

I've received good assistance on the rare occasion when I've called so I'm curious about this.  May I ask what your issue was?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 350
Stephen Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 3:09 AM

Andrew,

You must be impressed that so many users are on your side!!

What can i say? I went through what you are going through. Constanyly downloading megaG of resources, constantly indexing the library. So much downloading and indexing that for about 12 months I used L3 (what a great prog!!) and just watched L4 do acrobatics.

I also noticed that the megaG of resources were downloaded into 3 separate folders with mysticalo names.

On some occasions more thyan one indexing prog was running at once!

Perhaps I was at fault, or perhaps Logoes wasn't as flexible as it should have been. When i first downloaded and installed L4 I did NOT install it in the default directory. I rarely install any prog in the default directory. I have my own system which works very well but takes a little effort and metal gymnastics to maintain.

My feeling is that L4 took exception to my efforts and dug its heels in.

Everything was solved when I did a fresh install of win7 and a completely new install of L4.

L4 is now working fine .... if I could only get it to work exactly as L3 did!!!  What about changing the default font? What's happened to all those beautiful colour I had?

 

Stephen Miller

Sydney, Australia

 

 

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