So long Logos4...

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 10:41 AM

 

I am amazed, why should we buy DVDs for Logos product manuals from Morris proctor? Logos should provide a detail explanation about how to use the software, like others. If there were no forum where we could ask our problems, it would have  less value to buy the software. I have invested myself over 6000 USD, but there is no way I could get a guide. I am very grateful to those unnoticed by Logos , who take time to help me.I am amazed as well for those who advocate for Logos as if everything were good. Please let's become realistic.

 

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 10817
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 12:53 PM

Dominick Sela:
Logos could help themselves a whole lot by being much more transparent with what is going on. 

Thanks for that Dominick. I have been saying that for at least 6 years now. Sometimes Bob will post good information, but as a rule Logos is very poor on communication with its customer base.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 1:09 PM

Jason B:
My main problem I have with Logos is in the customer support department. I work for a software company as a senior product support specialist, so I'm very familiar with supporting software and the end user of the software, and I must say that when I called Logos support having difficulty using part of the software because of lack of documentation on how to use it, the lady who took my support call after doing some initial fact finding about the reason for my call to support, promptly told me that since I was not calling with a functional problem with Logos that my problem was just a training issue and pointed me to Morris Proctor. 

May I suggest that you email Bob Pritchett with this information—bob@logos.com? This is not normal and should not have happened.

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 1:54 PM

Jack Caviness:
May I suggest that you email Bob Pritchett with this information—bob@logos.com? This is not normal and should not have happened.

Yes, I agree. 

Bohuslav

Posts 3153
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 2:12 PM

 

I don't think that Bob doesn't know, at least someone from Logos could report him. I have no doubt there could be at least someone who controls the forums

 

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 10817
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 5:53 PM

Tes:
I have no doubt there could be at least someone who controls the forums

No one control the forums which has been a cause of consternation for some of us.

Tes:
I don't think that Bob doesn't know

Why would you think that? Who at Logos would read every post in every thread to find this comment in such a long thread. No one there reads every thread. Sometimes, I have sent an email to Bob or one of the other senior members of the company. However, in this case, I felt that it was up to the one expressing dissatisfaction to communicate his displeasure to the top dog.

Posts 19
Jason B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 10:11 PM

At the time I was trying to do some research into a bible topic I had been studying, and to gather more data for my study to be sure I had looked at every angle of the topic I was trying to understand, it became apparent that the only tool left to solve my problem was in using a Syntax Query.  So after building a few different ones and not getting it right, I searched the forums since it seemed that generally has been the best place to get answers, but I came up dry from that search, so I felt my only option left was to call support to see if they could help me understand how to construct my syntax query correctly, and show me what I had been doing wrongly.  When I called support, they started asking me questions about if Logos was working correctly or not, and I told her that I was pretty certain it was working just fine, just that it was me who was the problem, and that I just didn't understand how to use the tool correctly, and could she assist me with this problem?  Her prompt reply was that my issue was a training problem and that she could not help me, and then she pointed out the Morris Proctor training materials on the Logos website, as well as telling me I could watch the support videos and ask questions in the forums to learn how to use the program correctly.  I was stunned honestly and so asked her again if she would help me, and I was told again that technical support was for reporting bugs and problems with the program, but if the program is working fine, then my issue is considered a training issue, and that technical support was not for that.  After a couple attempts to get her to help, I finally gave up, thanked her for her time (although gritting my teeth almost to say it), and then hung up.

In the past when I had called with needing help with Libronix v3, I have had to call several times to get help using the program effectively, and I was always greeted with a polite and helpful technician who worked hard to answer my questions and really did help me understand how to do what I needed help doing, so fast forward a couple years and now I'm using Logos4 for windows, it seems the tone of support has radically changed and I never was able to figure out how to solve my problem or learn how to correctly use syntax queries.  I even posted my problem to the forums with screen shots and I never got any response there either, so I finally just gave up, and consequently that study went unfinished. 

Overall I will say I do love how easy to use Logos4 has been to use, and it is VERY powerful to say the least! This software has in many ways transformed my spiritual life and given me the ability to find answers for myself that I previously didn't think it would be possible to get, as it makes working with the original language so easy and accessible, which is what I really wanted and needed.  So while I do have some things I don't like about Logos4 about its sluggish responsiveness and slow to load, overall I have been very pleased with it for the most part, and I do not have any of the downloading issues thankfully that others here have described.  While it is easy to be frustrated and I still am unhappy with how I was treated as a customer by Logos support, I do want to balance that out with the positives as well, so as to not give a lopsided perspective. 

So Logos, I can live without documentation if you will make your customer support be real support, but even still if you had outstanding documentation on how to use the software, it still would be no excuse to have poor customer service, because some people still just need a human to explain things to them in terms they can understand, as documentation is not always easily understood by all, although it can be a great start and help.  You make great bible study software, just please support it!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 10:41 PM

Jason B:
so fast forward a couple years and now I'm using Logos4 for windows, it seems the tone of support has radically changed

My experience was similar to yours although it was regarding the PBB - it was L3 that I didn't get "training advice" for ... although I ultimately proved it wasn't a training issue but a bug. I do understand why Logos doesn't want technical support to become a training center. I also see why people want options other than MP.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 7
Phil Jagger | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2012 11:26 PM

So let me get this right,

Logos is happy to charge premium prices to SELL their software, then (because their high priced software LACKS inbuilt user help and intuitive functions) they are happy to relinqush their responsibilities to a forum because they shouldn't have to get involved in training!

AND THEN because they have passed on their responsibilities to a forum, they are happy to remain aloof from the forum without a even a moderator or representative so that they can remain ignorant to the ongoing plight of their customers and the blaring shortfalls of both their product and their customer service.

Seriously!!!!!

Posts 10817
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 2:35 AM

Jason B:
I was stunned honestly and so asked her again if she would help me, and I was told again that technical support was for reporting bugs and problems with the program, but if the program is working fine, then my issue is considered a training issue, and that technical support was not for that.

Thank you for the followup post. Now I better understand, and I fear that a message to Bob will not help in this situation Sad

MP does have some good training materials, but he is expensive. You might take a look at learnlogos.com. John has a couple of webinars on Syntax Searching, and he only charges $4.99 each.

Jason B:
In the past when I had called with needing help with Libronix v3, I have had to call several times to get help using the program effectively, and I was always greeted with a polite and helpful technician who worked hard to answer my questions and really did help me understand how to do what I needed help doing

Unfortunately, it appears that this kind of support is one of those things lost in the company's rapid growth following the release of Logos 4.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 4:22 AM

Jason B:
I even posted my problem to the forums with screen shots and I never got any response there either, so I finally just gave up, and consequently that study went unfinished. 

I thought that unusual but the only Syntax question you posted was answered promptly in Aug 2011 (with no acknowledgement from yourself). It showed why your queries did not work.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3153
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 4:31 AM

Jack Caviness:

Tes:
I have no doubt there could be at least someone who controls the forums

No one control the forums which has been a cause of consternation for some of us.

Tes:
I don't think that Bob doesn't know

Why would you think that? Who at Logos would read every post in every thread to find this comment in such a long thread. No one there reads every thread. Sometimes, I have sent an email to Bob or one of the other senior members of the company. However, in this case, I felt that it was up to the one expressing dissatisfaction to communicate his displeasure to the top dog.

Yes, I don't mean ,that they read every thread,but I think they concentrate on the subjects which affect their business.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 7:17 AM

I resonate and empathize with the frustrations expressed here. You really need to invest yourself in learning this software. Help is available, and I am thankful for the videos posted (both official and Mark's); additional help is available of course from MP and John, for a price, along with the manuals that can be purchased. But it is tough getting up to speed, especially if one wants to really take advantage of the software's capabilities. And I am NOWHERE near that point yet.

But here is my question. maybe I am not an average computer user (denser than most), but isn't this the norm for software support these days? I don't use a lot of software suites, but if memory serves, isn't this the same approach used by other advanced software programs? I don't recall receiving any real help with learning these in any kind of systematic way. Sometimes they provided in-program help, and sometimes not... and if they do now, it is often linked to the cloud.... so forget getting any kind of meaningful help if you can't connect to the Internet (grr). Increasingly, help seems to be provided in the guise of user forums, like here (again, good luck without a decent Internet connection). Hence, the proliferation of publications such as "Learning XXX Software for Dummies" and their ilk. And getting training manuals (beyond the simpler "dummy" versions, if available) for some of these common software programs can be really expensive. And if you call "support"... you will be on the phone an hour just trying to get through the line (if at all)... and then you will get someone who doesn't speak English well, doesn't really listen to your problem, gives you a canned response... and really couldn't care less. And in many cases today, they'll charge you for the service (at least, after an initial period of 30-90 days). Even then, many will focus more on technical problems than with training you how to use their software. At least, that has in GENERAL been my experience.

Now, please don't misunderstand me. I am NOT saying that I think this is RIGHT, and in no way does it diminish your complaint. Actually, it very much ticks me off too (I've recently been wrestling for a very long time with so-called "customer support" for a particular software program that I've been having problems with... I can only WISH they were as responsive as Logos! Every letter I write receives the same absolutely identical cut-and-paste wording that makes it clear no one actually READ what I wrote, or they ask questions in their reply that are completely answered in my original letter in words RIGHT BELOW their question. And this is for a very well-known and popular software program). I think what happened in this scenario described above wasn't good, but I think its pretty typical. If anything, we've gotten spoiled by the generally good support Logos provides. And things are slowly changing as the company grows (probably not for the better).

I've now got SO much invested in Logos, that it doesn't make sense for me NOT to pay for the manuals, disks, etc. to learn to use it properly. I likewise got a lot out of the wikis, and actually downloaded the whole kit-and-kaboodle using a little app called Site Sucker ('cause my Internet here is lousy, and I couldn't rely on my ability to access the wiki online). So I pretty much have a manual now built from the wiki (in addition to now having the training disks and videos... I also downloaded the latter). But like you, I wish there was a (free) help line, or that the manuals were free and provided in a document to the initial buyer, etc. (would Logos really lose all that much to write a manual and include it as a free initial resource with the program? Or would it actually be profitable in the long run by creating more users who know how to use the program and who therefore purchase more resources?).

I've just learned over time that I need to accept that the learning curve is high for Logos, and I have to invest myself in learning it (and in assembling the tools to do so) and that it is just going to take time. But that it will be worthwhile in the end.

Just wondering... maybe I have just had bad experiences with other large software companies.... but is training/help really that much worse/less accessible  than for other major, complicated pieces of software today? 

Posts 7
Phil Jagger | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 8:27 AM

I hear you but I don't wholeheartedly agree.

I am a more than competent computer user.  I pride myself in getting the most out of software and am generally able to do so with most software suites with the assistance at times from their built in help files (internet or otherwise) or by trial and error within the industry quasi standard-type intuitive menus.  Some suites (Adobe for example) also test the patience at times.

Logos 4, however is like Pandora's Box.  

In his original post Kevin stated: 
"What used to be on a menu is now a command you must remember or suck out your thumb or do an internet search for. I downloaded one of the free books recently, only to discover it was already in my library. No problem - just remove duplicate resources right? I know there was a menu item in Logo2/3 to do this, but now you have to be a clairvoyant to guess a suitable command. Would you believe there was no match in the entire library search for "remove duplicate"? In Logo2/3, if I has to search every menu item, I could find it inside a minute."

I AGREE with him!  Why LOGOS does not provide an exhaustive manual or list of command than can unlock Pandora's Box is absolutely beyond belief!  Why Logos decided to go to a command base interface when they tout that they are moving with cutting edge technology is absolutely beyond belief!  I have never bought a "Learning XXX Software for Dummies" because generally I can quickly be abreast of what I need to drive the software satisfactorily.

If you are advocating that everybody who wants to use Logos 4 should devote copious hours of their life to learn to use the software in conjunction with searching through forums and paying for help that REALLY should be part and parcel of the EXPENSIVE package at the point of sale, then you might as well be telling people to take up their cross and follow Logos.

When we say "I'm not saying I think it's right" but continue to be compliant with the inept status quo we are saying "however, we are prepared to live with it".  Well I am not. 

For the record, I have NO problems downloading software or (one time) resources from the internet and then having ongoing syncing or new resources updated in the same manner.  I resent Logos assuming that I am so ambivalent with my data usage than I am happy for the COMPLETE download process to be repeated EVERY time I install the package when those same resources are sitting on another computer in the same house (and yes I know I can stop the download and copy resources across, but I also resent this methodology as an acceptable work around for a choice-less install).

The OP's swan song was "So Long Logos 4" and I for one respect his resolve.  My current resolve is if Logos 4 doesn't provide better user OPTIONS and menu driven FUNCTIONALLY (including intuitive help) then I will SADLY (not triumphantly) be walking away from this product. 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 9:11 AM

Phil Jagger:

In his original post Kevin stated: 
"What used to be on a menu is now a command you must remember or suck out your thumb or do an internet search for. I downloaded one of the free books recently, only to discover it was already in my library. No problem - just remove duplicate resources right? I know there was a menu item in Logo2/3 to do this, but now you have to be a clairvoyant to guess a suitable command. Would you believe there was no match in the entire library search for "remove duplicate"? In Logo2/3, if I has to search every menu item, I could find it inside a minute."

One obvious solution to the problem of duplicate resources is to avoid them in the first place.  My library is comparatively small (4,500 resources) so I have no problem remembering whether I have a resource, but some may have too many resources to remember all of them (and truth be told, they sometimes slip one in on me through collections) or they simply may not concentrate on keeping track of what they have in their library.  It seems fairly obvious, and has been mentioned already, that the answer is to remove (hide) duplicate resources.  To check this I deliberately downloaded the ABDB which I have had since time immemorial (before the EBDB) since it's a free resource.  The website allowed me to do this.  Not only that, I was unable to find an indication in either the Logos4 library or in Windows Explorer that I had a duplicate (usually indicated by a (2) after the file name).  What would be good is if, when ordering a resource, Logos would check to see whether you already have a license for it (hopefully that shouldn't be too difficult).  If it is found that you already have the resource then Logos coud display a "Notice of Duplicate Resource" and allow the user to bail out or proceed (why, I don't know).  Perhaps I'll make a suggestion to do this.

Even better, I would advise all users to check their library before ordering a book.  What would you do if you went to the bookstore and saw a book that looks interesting then got home only to find that you already own it?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 9:58 AM

Jack Caviness:

Thanks for that Dominick. I have been saying that for at least 6 years now. Sometimes Bob will post good information, but as a rule Logos is very poor on communication with its customer base.

Yes

Jason B:
call support to see if they could help me understand how to construct my syntax query correctly, and show me what I had been doing wrongly.  When I called support, they started asking me questions about if Logos was working correctly or not, and I told her that I was pretty certain it was working just fine, just that it was me who was the problem, and that I just didn't understand how to use the tool correctly, and could she assist me with this problem?  Her prompt reply was that my issue was a training problem and that she could not help me

I've had some rotten experiences with Tech Support, but from what you describe here I'd have to say that I think I'd side with Logos on this one. Syntax searching is an advanced feature that requires language skills as much as, if not more than, it requires understanding the program, Thus:

  • It's probably next to impossible to judge beforehand whether it's really the program someone needs help with, or if it's their language skills that aren't good enough. You'll only know after you've already provided the help. And free language training definitely isn't part of Logos' obligations towards us.
  • How many of the support staff actually have the skills to help with any but the simplest of syntax searches? My guess would be: not many. 
  • Telephone really isn't a good means for providing syntax search help. Both parties need to see the same thing.
  • Can you imagine the cost if they provided free one-on-one training on things like this? No offense, but I'm not willing to pay for you to get that. Logos is expensive enough as it is.

I do think it's part of Logos' duty to make the program intuitive (which they always boast about, but never, in my view, implement (at least not on Mac; I can't speak about the Windows experience)), and I do think it's their duty to take the resulting support costs when they fail to do so, but I don't think it's their duty to help people draw sentence diagrams or construct syntax searches. The forums are a much better venue for that.

That said, besides all the users willing to help you with syntax searches, it is actually quite common to see a Logos employee turn up on such threads as well. And I can pretty much guarantee that he gives better help than any of the normal support staff could have done.

So, while I usually get rather upset hearing about CS or Tech Support telling people to ask on the forums instead because they themselves don't have a clue (and are too lazy or something to find out), in this case it sounds like good advice. Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear. Smile

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 10:21 AM

fgh:

That said, besides all the users willing to help you with syntax searches, it is actually quite common to see a Logos employee turn up on such threads as well. And I can pretty much guarantee that he gives better help than any of the normal support staff could have done.

Rick Brannon has appeared on the forums from time to time providing help with syntax searches and even providing developed searches.  That said, I still hardly feel capable in the area of syntax searching.  Also, though I should probably invest a little effort in learning syntax searching, I have a basic aversion to having someone else determine the syntax of a passage since sometimes my analysis isn't quite the same.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 10:44 AM

fgh:
I do think it's part of Logos' duty to make the program intuitive (which they always boast about, but never, in my view, implement (at least not on Mac; I can't speak about the Windows experience))
YesIt is the same on the windows side IMHO.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 10:47 AM

tom collinge:

fgh:
I do think it's part of Logos' duty to make the program intuitive (which they always boast about, but never, in my view, implement (at least not on Mac; I can't speak about the Windows experience))
YesIt is the same on the windows side IMHO.

It is a matter for dispute whether something is intuitive.  "Collections", e.g., falls under "Tools" though I could make a perfectly sound argument that it should be elsewhere (Is it not a subdivision of the Library?).  In other words, what is intuitive for one person may be counterintuitive for another.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 10:58 AM

George Somsel:
It is a matter for dispute whether something is intuitive.  "Collections", e.g., falls under "Tools" though I could make a perfectly sound argument that it should be elsewhere (Is it not a subdivision of the Library?).  In other words, what is intuitive for one person may be counterintuitive for another.

True, but lets look at adding a note.  I I highlighted some text in Gen 1:1 In L3, I had the option of attaching the note the text that was selected (highlighted) or to Genesis 1:1.  If I do the same thing in L4, I somehow have to know that I have to highlight the selection option or the reference option that is above the note, and what in the hell does reference mean?  How many of us could have figured out to add a note to Gen 1:1 that reference had to be highlighted?  And how many of us knew what L4 meant by using the word reference the first time we saw it?

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