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Dean Chao | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Aug 5 2009 3:29 PM

Is there a reason why when u put a interlinear Bible in the "Compare Parallel Bible Versions" tool, it only shows the English but not the original language? I did this with the ESV+Greek and ESV+Hebrew. Both English and original language show fine in a window by itself but once they were placed in the parallel Bible versions window, all the original is gone...

thx

dean

Posts 172
Chris Ease | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 4:34 PM

I have wondered the same thing too!  

Posts 172
Chris Ease | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 5:14 PM
I've tried everything I can think of and I can't change the way Logos displays the interlinears. You could always open 2 interlinears in 2 windows and link them together and read them side by side, assuming you want to compare greek text with greek text and the english text with english text.
Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 5:46 PM

Oh oh!  Listen!!  Can you hear George coming???

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 6:57 PM

Alex Scott:

Oh oh!  Listen!!  Can you hear George coming???

I'm about ready to give up on those who use interlinears pretending that they're gaining something from the original language.  They're a bunch of poor lost souls.  They would do better to get a good translation if they don't want to spend the time to really learn the language, but they can't understand that fact.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 172
Chris Ease | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 7:14 PM
There is a difference in an interlinear and a reverse interlinear. I prefer the interlinear over the reverse so I can see the equivalent English order. And so, I depend on morphology and good lexicons (BDAG, ANLEX, L&N) to help me, for what it's worth. I really want the syntax stuff so I can see the subjects, verbs, direct objects, etc.. in clauses. After watching Logos videos, I can no longer assume that a nominative noun is the subject in a particular verse. I guess the same problem exist for accusative nouns being direct objects of the nominative noun. Onward Christian Soldiers.....I need Greek help. I do own several greek grammers in print.
Posts 5637
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 7:46 PM

DeanChao:
Is there a reason why when u put a interlinear Bible in the "Compare Parallel Bible Versions" tool, it only shows the English but not the original language? I did this with the ESV+Greek and ESV+Hebrew.

First of all, only the English line in the ESV Reverse Interlinear is a "version".  The other lines, including the Greek Alignment, are really just reference tools and notes on the English text.  (In a regular interlinear, the Greek is the "version" and the English gloss and morphology lines are the "notes".)  If you want to see an original language in the "Compare Parallel Bible Versions" tool, use the NA27 or BHS.

However, the "Compare Parallel Bible Versions" tool is actually comparing the words and highlighting differences, so mixing languages doesn't make sense with that tool.  Use the "Parallel Bible Versions" tool instead.

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 8:10 PM

Chris:
After watching Logos videos, I can no longer assume that a nominative noun is the subject in a particular verse.

You do need Syntax Search where the language divisions are based on Clause Analysis. The verse division of standard searches is arbitrary, but still useful for indicative results.

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 8:26 PM

Todd Phillips:
The other lines, including the Greek Alignment, are really just reference tools and notes on the English text.

Fundamentally, the Greek text is in the wrong order so the Compare tool would have to perform additional work.

Dave
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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 8:35 PM

Dave Hooton:

Todd Phillips:
The other lines, including the Greek Alignment, are really just reference tools and notes on the English text.

Fundamentally, the Greek text is in the wrong order so the Compare tool would have to perform additional work.

Word order is one of the differences that it highlights, so it really makes no sense to compare the Greek alignment to anything.

 

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Posts 20
Dean Chao | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 8:51 PM

Chris:
I've tried everything I can think of and I can't change the way Logos displays the interlinears. You could always open 2 interlinears in 2 windows and link them together and read them side by side, assuming you want to compare greek text with greek text and the english text with english text.

actually, my intention is to read the original language, and then compare the different translations see where they put the emphasis in a certain verse. I guess I was trying to mimic the behaviour of Bibleworks, which I use for my Greek and Hebrew seminary  classes

Posts 20
Dean Chao | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 9:09 PM

Todd Phillips:

Dave Hooton:

Todd Phillips:
The other lines, including the Greek Alignment, are really just reference tools and notes on the English text.

Fundamentally, the Greek text is in the wrong order so the Compare tool would have to perform additional work.

Word order is one of the differences that it highlights, so it really makes no sense to compare the Greek alignment to anything.

 

actually sometimes it's quite helpful. Because in many instances the Greek verbs were implied, or a conjunction may modify multiple words/clauses before/after it. Or if you have a  S-PN construction, so on and so forth. In this case, it's helpful to see how different translations were done and you can see the interpretations/assumptions the translators made when they translated the verse.

One example is in Ephesians 5:15. ESV renders " Look carefully then how you walk...." In Greek, carefully can modify look or walk. ESV thinks it modifies look, and I believe a few translations think it modifies walk. It may not be important theologically. But exegetically, this is a very interesting case study as it concerns Paul's writing style, and also what word order can best bring out the "flavor" of the teaching.

I feel like Logos was excellent in many ways but Bibleworks is better for exegetical studies. So I was trying to make Logos behaves more like Bibleworks.....

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 10:27 PM

DeanChao:
it's helpful to see how different translations were done and you can see the interpretations/assumptions the translators made when they translated the verse.

Eph 5:15 can be highlighted by comparing the English of ESV/NRSV Interlinears with NET but you would then need to refer to the Greek. Now look at Matt 1:18.  "took place in this way" would be missed unless compared with the NET. Such translational artifacts (interpolations) would not be highlighted unless different English words are used when comparing different translations. Comparing the Greek alignments would not be very useful e.g. "to be with child".

Exegetical Guide may also be useful if you "Show Verse Text" (in Properties) with a reverse interlinear as the interpolated words are not highlighted.

It would be interesting to know how BW presents this type of information.

Dave
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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 5 2009 10:28 PM

DeanChao:
it's helpful to see how different translations were done and you can see the interpretations/assumptions the translators made when they translated the verse.

Ah now I see.  I didn't understand your goals.  Yeah, if I turn off all the interlinear lines in the ESVRevInt except the Greek Alignment, and select Bible Text Only, it's fairly easy to visually compare it to the NA27 (also Bible Text Only), except that all the arrows, triangles and dots are still in the Greek Alignment.  They'd probably have to recode the compare tool to ignore those.  You should request this capability.

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 4:45 AM

Hi, Dean:

Here's an approach that might help.  Create a workspace with a couple of Interlinears along the top (maybe a TR plus the ESV).  Then put the Compare Parallel along the bottom, and load it up with whatever orig-lang versions you are interested in.  The Compare pane provides the differences in the orig lang's, while the interlinear helps you see which orig is closest and help you read the greek if that is part of your goal.

Note that the Compare engine does not work as well with Grk/Heb as it does with English ... it tends to show big pink and blue blocks in many cases when the differences are other than minor.  It's better at English text.  My guess is that this is due to lack of punctuation in Greek.  It can't find periods, etc to help it parse what it's seeing.

Oh, yes - if you LINK them together, keep in mind that the parallel sort of likes to follow periocopes, so things will get out of visual sync.

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 20
Dean Chao | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 7:17 AM

cool thx Jim

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